Aging Parents, Clueless Family

[kaylagrl]

This holiday season, from Thanksgiving through to Christmas I've been having an issue with my sister. I have no children, she has two. They are the only grandchildren. I have told my parents that this issue stared many years ago with the first grandson. Her in-laws, who live next door to her, acted like they were the only grandparents, the only family. So my sister and her husband would come up to my parent place, not eat dinner because they had to race back home, over 2 hrs., to not offend her in-laws. They had every single holiday. And when I told my parents they needed to push back to see the grand-kids, they didn't want to upset my sister. She would make excuses or cry and say there was nothing she could do.

We had an issue that whenever we went to visit as a family, my BIL would pick up the baby and say he was going to see his parents. Of course my parents were upset and my sister was too afraid to speak up. Finally I was there one day and my BIL said to my sister "I'm taking the baby to see mom and dad". And I said " No, you aren't!" He stopped and was shocked I'm sure. I said " You're parents can see the baby any time they choose. We drive all this distance, gas isn't cheap, we make a 2 hr trip to see the only grandchild and you get up every time and take him to your parents." I said " You go where you wish, but the baby stays here, and that's the way it's going to be when we visit". Now he was utterly shocked, but he put the baby down and left. Several weekends later we made the trip to see the baby again. I heard the phone ring and my sisters husband almost whisper into the phone, " No I can't, her parents and sister are here".

Now that baby is 17 yrs old and his brother 15. It's been a fight to get the boys here. They may come 3 times a year and my parents never fight for more time because they don't want to upset my sister who can't stand up to her husband and his family. Last year my mother went through cancer and this year she has been recovering from it. She has been unable to walk and at times been using a walker. I have been back and forth to doctors to try and find help for her. She suffers a lot of pain if she overdoes it. The Sunday before Christmas she went to service, she hasn't been there since last April. Then of course we were busy the week of Christmas, buying presents and preparing for a big family meal. I have been staying through the holiday season and doing all I can to keep her rested and off her feet. But she loves Christmas and didn't want me to do everything alone. So after we had Christmas day and had a meal with my parents and me and my hubby, she was in pain and needed to rest. My sister calls and says they are coming up early the next morning. I knew that wasn't possible. I knew it was too much for my mother. Also my husband was on call for work. So I told my mother to simply tell them this wasn't a good time and next weekend would be better. Well, all hell broke loose. My sister called back and made all kinds of excuses as to why the kids wouldn't be able to come next weekend. (she does this all the time) Then she said they'd just come some other weekend, that the kids didn't care when they came. This hurt my mother because she puts so much into Christmas. By the time my mother hung up she was in distress. A while later she sat down and started to cry. We have lost many of our family to cancer. Each Christmas to her is a mile stone. She has never pushed my sister to see the boys. Now I think she is regretting it. I had to leave, my hubby was picking me up. But it made me want to shake my sister.

I got home and messaged my sister and BIL together and gently tried to explain why it wasn't a good time for them to come. I was very nice about it and told them we love them, and the boys, it was just that mom couldn't enjoy company when she's in pain and sleeping all day from taking meds. Usually I would be much more direct, but I calmed down and read it to my hubby and he said it was perfect. My sister called my mother back and was a little more amicable, but still full of excuses why the boys couldn't come and get their gifts. My father sides with my sister on almost all things, but he was very upset when he saw mom in tears yesterday. My sister would never tell her in laws no. She would move heaven and hell to have the kids there for whatever reason the in laws said. But it seems she either cannot or will not try to get the boys here to see their grandparents. As a family they are busy all the time, to my mind, if you're too busy to spend some time with your parents, something has got to give. I know the boys play sports, but that should never come before family. It wouldn't if it were my kids. If she doesn't bring the kids up this weekend I don't know what to do. Sometimes hubby says stay out of it, and I do. Other times I feel like I have to parent my sister into making the right choice. It's really getting tiresome. I don't want the family to be fighting, but it's not fair that my mother sits here and cries for her grandchildren. Anyone have these type of issues? How did you deal with them?

 

[tourist]

You are correct in saying the issue is with your sister. As the two kids are getting older in a few years they will make up their own minds on where to spend the holidays. It may turn out that the kids may not spend the holidays with either family but might just hang out with their friends. Your parents got the shaft. Oh, I do believe that your BIL is a bit insensitive to your parents. I'm surprised that your sister puts up with him always putting his parents first and not hers.

 

[tourist]

Anyone have these type of issues? How did you deal with them?

I sure did with my X during my horrible first marriage. Our single daughter also happened to be the first grandchild. My parents got the shaft too. My X dealt with my parents hurt feelings by divorcing me. It's OK though. One weekend, just before the divorce was final, she asked me if I could watch our little dog for the weekend. I loved the dog and said I would be happy to watch the little guy. The thing is, I kept the dog and didn't return him. I gave myself sole custody of him.

 

[Lanolin]

sounds terrrible Kayla. 2 hours away is a big distance to travel vs right next door. I never even met my mothers dad as he lived in another country and died there.

Do your parents ever use zoom, skype, or facetime?
Do you ever offer petrol/ gas vouchers or air tickets so your sister can easily get to your parents place? Pick them up on the way or meet them half way?

Im kinda thinking while you think your sister is 'full of excuses' maybe there are legit reasons for not coming so often that you havent understood. Did you parents ever say anything unpleasant to your sister that put her off?

 

[kaylagrl]

sounds terrrible Kayla. 2 hours away is a big distance to travel vs right next door. I never even met my mothers dad as he lived in another country and died there.

Do your parents ever use zoom, skype, or facetime?
Do you ever offer petrol/ gas vouchers or air tickets so your sister can easily get to your parents place? Pick them up on the way or meet them half way?

Im kinda thinking while you think your sister is 'full of excuses' maybe there are legit reasons for not coming so often that you havent understood. Did you parents ever say anything unpleasant to your sister that put her off?

Yes, my father has often gone to pick up the boys. They have also met half way. My father lost his job during COVID and my mother has been ill. My sister's husband has a good paying job. But yes, when my father worked he picked up the boys. I have set up skype for my parents and facebook, my sister has never responded. When my mother was ill with cancer my sister came and stayed and took her back and forth for chemo to the city. And she gets along even better with her father. So no issues there. I think it has much to do with her in laws and being unwilling to speak up against them. But as an adult she needs to understand that there are times you have to speak up and make people understand you are an adult and will not be pushed around. She's very passive with her husbands family, very direct with us because she feels comfortable to do so. If anyone is going to get the short end of the stick, it's my parents. And it hurts them deeply.

 

[kaylagrl]

You are correct in saying the issue is with your sister. As the two kids are getting older in a few years they will make up their own minds on where to spend the holidays. It may turn out that the kids may not spend the holidays with either family but might just hang out with their friends. Your parents got the shaft. Oh, I do believe that your BIL is a bit insensitive to your parents. I'm surprised that your sister puts up with him always putting his parents first and not hers.

To me, fair is fair. If I had kids and my parents lived two hrs away, they would be the first people to spend holidays with the kids. They don't get to see them. They would get first place. Or if it was my hubby's parents, same deal. I would switch Christmas with in laws and other holidays. We never see the kids on their birthdays. Also they don't come for Thanksgiving. For me, one year, the in laws would get Christmas, family would get Thanksgiving, switch the next year. But it's been in laws all the way. No one will say anything but me. I have been the one who has gotten the kids here as much as they have been. I plan what they will do when they come. My hubby and I make sure they have a special time every time they are here. Very active with them. My oldest nephew said on one of his last times here " that's why I love coming here", I said "why"? He said " we always do something different". We only have the two so we are able to spend more when they come and on presents. It seems the kids want to come, but my BIL especially doesn't seem to want to come. When my sister comes alone there seems to be less issues. It's just very frustrating. We moved from our home country, my sister is all we have here. She knows we love seeing the kids. I just don't get what the issue is.

 

[Lanolin]

well...you cant be your sister and speak up for her..she needs to learn to do it.
And your brother in law naturally will put HIS parents first over his in laws.
I think you are doing as much as you can and yes its frustrating but that is the way it is with some families. Have you been welcoming to your brother in law? Maybe he needs to feel included too and bond with your parents, espcially your dad. He might not connect with your mum so much.

Some aunts and uncles I never see much at all only at funerals. And we all live in the same city.

I had a family issue where one cousin didnt feel like coming to our christmas gathering because another cousin and aunty and uncle she had a fight/disagreement with and she didnt want to face them. Everyone was invited.

But my mum said she really wanted her to come and I said I had a gift for her, and plus she could leave early if it got too much or come to lunch instead...and she decided she would be the bigger person and come anyway bringing dessert etc. And surprisingly she stayed and we played games and there were so many of us there so it wasnt awkward at all.

I try not to get involved in other peoples spats and disagreements and just pray that they will forgive each other and not hold grudges.

 

[kaylagrl]

well...you cant be your sister and speak up for her..she needs to learn to do it.
And your brother in law naturally will put HIS parents first over his in laws.
I think you are doing as much as you can and yes its frustrating but that is the way it is with some families. Have you been welcoming to your brother in law? Maybe he needs to feel included too and bond with your parents, espcially your dad. He might not connect with your mum so much.

Some aunts and uncles I never see much at all only at funerals. And we all live in the same city.

I had a family issue where one cousin didnt feel like coming to our christmas gathering because another cousin and aunty and uncle she had a fight/disagreement with and she didnt want to face them. Everyone was invited.

But my mum said she really wanted her to come and I said I had a gift for her, and plus she could leave early if it got too much or come to lunch instead...and she decided she would be the bigger person and come anyway bringing dessert etc. And surprisingly she stayed and we played games and there were so many of us there so it wasnt awkward at all.

I try not to get involved in other peoples spats and disagreements and just pray that they will forgive each other and not hold grudges.

I guess I should have given more background, but they have been married 20 yrs. He's not knew to the family. He and my father get on well. But the issue is, he always puts his family first. And that is simply not fair. But how to tell someone that without causing a family drama, I do not know.

 

[TheIndianGirl]

I guess I should have given more background, but they have been married 20 yrs. He's not knew to the family. He and my father get on well. But the issue is, he always puts his family first. And that is simply not fair. But how to tell someone that without causing a family drama, I do not know.

I remember in another post you mentioned that your BIL is controlling and emotionally abusive towards your sister (you made a comparison between your marriage with your husband, and your sister's marriage with her husband). There is not much your sister can do in this case, so I would not hold her entirely responsible. It comes down to your BIL and his parents. Being that your BIL is insensitive towards your sister, it follows that he would also be insensitive towards her/your parents' wishes as well. Using your sister as a middle person to communicate can put stress on her especially when she has limited control.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

This holiday season, from Thanksgiving through to Christmas I've been having an issue with my sister. I have no children, she has two. They are the only grandchildren. I have told my parents that this issue stared many years ago with the first grandson. Her in-laws, who live next door to her, acted like they were the only grandparents, the only family. So my sister and her husband would come up to my parent place, not eat dinner because they had to race back home, over 2 hrs., to not offend her in-laws. They had every single holiday. And when I told my parents they needed to push back to see the grand-kids, they didn't want to upset my sister. She would make excuses or cry and say there was nothing she could do.

We had an issue that whenever we went to visit as a family, my BIL would pick up the baby and say he was going to see his parents. Of course my parents were upset and my sister was too afraid to speak up. Finally I was there one day and my BIL said to my sister "I'm taking the baby to see mom and dad". And I said " No, you aren't!" He stopped and was shocked I'm sure. I said " You're parents can see the baby any time they choose. We drive all this distance, gas isn't cheap, we make a 2 hr trip to see the only grandchild and you get up every time and take him to your parents." I said " You go where you wish, but the baby stays here, and that's the way it's going to be when we visit". Now he was utterly shocked, but he put the baby down and left. Several weekends later we made the trip to see the baby again. I heard the phone ring and my sisters husband almost whisper into the phone, " No I can't, her parents and sister are here".

Now that baby is 17 yrs old and his brother 15. It's been a fight to get the boys here. They may come 3 times a year and my parents never fight for more time because they don't want to upset my sister who can't stand up to her husband and his family. Last year my mother went through cancer and this year she has been recovering from it. She has been unable to walk and at times been using a walker. I have been back and forth to doctors to try and find help for her. She suffers a lot of pain if she overdoes it. The Sunday before Christmas she went to service, she hasn't been there since last April. Then of course we were busy the week of Christmas, buying presents and preparing for a big family meal. I have been staying through the holiday season and doing all I can to keep her rested and off her feet. But she loves Christmas and didn't want me to do everything alone. So after we had Christmas day and had a meal with my parents and me and my hubby, she was in pain and needed to rest. My sister calls and says they are coming up early the next morning. I knew that wasn't possible. I knew it was too much for my mother. Also my husband was on call for work. So I told my mother to simply tell them this wasn't a good time and next weekend would be better. Well, all hell broke loose. My sister called back and made all kinds of excuses as to why the kids wouldn't be able to come next weekend. (she does this all the time) Then she said they'd just come some other weekend, that the kids didn't care when they came. This hurt my mother because she puts so much into Christmas. By the time my mother hung up she was in distress. A while later she sat down and started to cry. We have lost many of our family to cancer. Each Christmas to her is a mile stone. She has never pushed my sister to see the boys. Now I think she is regretting it. I had to leave, my hubby was picking me up. But it made me want to shake my sister.

I got home and messaged my sister and BIL together and gently tried to explain why it wasn't a good time for them to come. I was very nice about it and told them we love them, and the boys, it was just that mom couldn't enjoy company when she's in pain and sleeping all day from taking meds. Usually I would be much more direct, but I calmed down and read it to my hubby and he said it was perfect. My sister called my mother back and was a little more amicable, but still full of excuses why the boys couldn't come and get their gifts. My father sides with my sister on almost all things, but he was very upset when he saw mom in tears yesterday. My sister would never tell her in laws no. She would move heaven and hell to have the kids there for whatever reason the in laws said. But it seems she either cannot or will not try to get the boys here to see their grandparents. As a family they are busy all the time, to my mind, if you're too busy to spend some time with your parents, something has got to give. I know the boys play sports, but that should never come before family. It wouldn't if it were my kids. If she doesn't bring the kids up this weekend I don't know what to do. Sometimes hubby says stay out of it, and I do. Other times I feel like I have to parent my sister into making the right choice. It's really getting tiresome. I don't want the family to be fighting, but it's not fair that my mother sits here and cries for her grandchildren. Anyone have these type of issues? How did you deal with them?

We had a similar issue with my nephews we got guardianship of. My wife's sister started dating a guy who didn't like my wife's parents so for 7 years we rarely saw the boys. Gifts got returned or never reached them and after awhile the family stopped hearing from them.

A lot of fighting occurred due to the sisters selfish irresponsible behaviors that led to neglect and child abuse.

It is unfortunate and sad of the outcome but when dealing with other adults we had to just give it to God to handle in His timing. So with much prayer we did eventually get reunited.

It hurts but after a while there is freedom in giving it to God. Not to burn bridges but simply just letting be what will be. They know how y'all feel and maybe the best outcome is for the people who want to see each other should take great comfort in each others presence and for those like the sister or brother in law, they may see this change and want to experience it themselves.

It is hard when we allow others to hold the keys to joy. Finding joy through Christ even in the midst of choppy waters and strong winds it can be difficult but not impossible. One Peter stepped out of the boat and focused on Jesus, he forgot about the turbulent water.

 

[kaylagrl]

I remember in another post you mentioned that your BIL is controlling and emotionally abusive towards your sister (you made a comparison between your marriage with your husband, and your sister's marriage with her husband). There is not much your sister can do in this case, so I would not hold her entirely responsible. It comes down to your BIL and his parents. Being that your BIL is insensitive towards your sister, it follows that he would also be insensitive towards her/your parents' wishes as well. Using your sister as a middle person to communicate can put stress on her especially when she has limited control.

True, as I mentioned in the first post I went directly to my BIL. And I have no issue with that. But my parents think he will cause my sister stress and upset. But when I have spoken to him we haven't had that issue. He doesn't go to my sister because he knows I will come back directly to him again. I know it's my parents place to do that, especially my father. But they are older. They just want to see their grandkids without drama. Some people you'll never earn respect from and you need to take a more direct approach. That's how I feel, then other times I feel I should just walk away. IDK.

 

[Rhomphaeam]

True, as I mentioned in the first post I went directly to my BIL. And I have no issue with that. But my parents think he will cause my sister stress and upset. But when I have spoken to him we haven't had that issue. He doesn't go to my sister because he knows I will come back directly to him again. I know it's my parents place to do that, especially my father. But they are older. They just want to see their grandkids without drama. Some people you'll never earn respect from and you need to take a more direct approach. That's how I feel, then other times I feel I should just walk away. IDK.

Please forgive me for asking for clarification. I have read the entire thread through several times and have been contemplating how to respond because your opening post is very detailed and you have expanded your detail in some answers to other posters to help them understand more detail.

My question Sister is this:

Is your brother in law an emotional abuser of your sister? @TheIndianGirl raised that point and your reply (which I have quoted here) begins with the term true

So is it true that your BIL is an emotional abuser - or manipulator perhaps one might say as an equivalent term?

The reason why that matters to my own ability to respond is because I wanted to share a spiritual way to go forward, and knowing that simple detail would determine how to advise that detail.

Sister it must be clear that many of the problems with regard to familial issues can all have their causality grounded in psychological predications arising out of operant and behavioural triggers. There is no need to try and attribute spiritual meanings to many human behaviours - unless there is a clear basis for doing so. And even when we sometimes drift into that arena of believing that a spiritual root may be as likely to inform our understanding and the way we then pray - psychological or else emotional instincts can be addressed by having a strategy to speak with people in the right order and then trust God and not least a basic human decency in those we love. So what I am speaking about or would like to speak about is a separate way forward and is predicated on a matter of authority grounded in Father's of children and not how anyone is like to be behave because of the experience of parents in law (your BIL).

It is possible to circumvent the entire theatre of trying to establish a reasoned conversation as a mechanism to establishing outcomes - whereas spiritual authority before the Father in heaven is predicated on the order of creation and singularly on the fact that the woman was taken from the man. And there is no need to go into a religious quagmire to exercise that meaning. But it would help me to settle my own mind to know expressly that meaning I have asked. Thank you. Your brother in Christ.

 

[kaylagrl]

Please forgive me for asking for clarification. I have read the entire thread through several times and have been contemplating how to respond because your opening post is very detailed and you have expanded your detail in some answers to other posters to help them understand more detail.

My question Sister is this:

Is your brother in law an emotional abuser of your sister? @TheIndianGirl raised that point and your reply (which I have quoted here) begins with the term true

So is it true that your BIL is an emotional abuser - or manipulator perhaps one might say as an equivalent term?

The reason why that matters to my own ability to respond is because I wanted to share a spiritual way to go forward, and knowing that simple detail would determine how to advise that detail.

Sister it must be clear that many of the problems with regard to familial issues can all have their causality grounded in psychological predications arising out of operant and behavioural triggers. There is no need to try and attribute spiritual meanings to many human behaviours - unless there is a clear basis for doing so. And even when we sometimes drift into that arena of believing that a spiritual root may be as likely to inform our understanding and the way we then pray - psychological or else emotional instincts can be addressed by having a strategy to speak with people in the right order and then trust God and not least a basic human decency in those we love. So what I am speaking about or would like to speak about is a separate way forward and is predicated on a matter of authority grounded in Father's of children and not how anyone is like to be behave because of the experience of parents in law (your BIL).

It is possible to circumvent the entire theatre of trying to establish a reasoned conversation as a mechanism to establishing outcomes - whereas spiritual authority before the Father in heaven is predicated on the order of creation and singularly on the fact that the woman was taken from the man. And there is no need to go into a religious quagmire to exercise that meaning. But it would help me to settle my own mind to know expressly that meaning I have asked. Thank you. Your brother in Christ.

Yes, I believe him to be an emotional abuser. Of course I am not a professional, but they have been to several marriage counselors, most of them within the church. My BIL has smashed his fist through walls in there home. He has thrown her clothes out on the lawn, cursed her and told her to leave. He has smashed the childrens toys. He has broken endless phones and computers. He has threatened to commit suicide twice. He has told his children that women are crazy and drive you mad. Now I know my sister is human and she fails, no spouse is perfect. But I don't think anyone could call this normal. My husband believes my BIL has another woman on the side, I pray this is not true as it would devastate my sister and her boys. In their 20 yrs of marriage they continue to have some peaceful times, where it seems everything is ok, and then she is calling me and wanting prayer. I have told her if she decides to divorce him make sure she gives me time to get there with my husband. I'm afraid of what he would do to them. He is on meds for anger issues. When he feels better he comes off them, which is dangerous and I fear he would harm them and himself. If I can stop that from happening, I will. I hope you have a clearer picture of what we are dealing with. My hubby believes him to be an actor, playing one person in front of my parents, and another when he is home. He feels he's not to be trusted. But my parents don't know everything because my sister has asked me not to tell them and worry them. Now her youngest son is acting out and getting into trouble. So I guess for me, there's more to this than just a Christmas visit. I feel I need to be near to the boys just in case something happens.

Lately they seem to be in a place of peace in their marriage. My BIL posted about how beautiful my sister is, how much he needs her and how God brought her into his life. But we have heard this time and again. He swings from high to low. I'm thinking finally things have settled, he's matured, or got ahold of God. And then a panic call from my sister again. It's a very sad situation.

 

[Angela53510]

Yes, I believe him to be an emotional abuser. Of course I am not a professional, but they have been to several marriage counselors, most of them within the church. My BIL has smashed his fist through walls in there home. He has thrown her clothes out on the lawn, cursed her and told her to leave. He has smashed the childrens toys. He has broken endless phones and computers. He has threatened to commit suicide twice. He has told his children that women are crazy and drive you mad. Now I know my sister is human and she fails, no spouse is perfect. But I don't think anyone could call this normal. My husband believes my BIL has another woman on the side, I pray this is not true as it would devastate my sister and her boys. In their 20 yrs of marriage they continue to have some peaceful times, where it seems everything is ok, and then she is calling me and wanting prayer. I have told her if she decides to divorce him make sure she gives me time to get there with my husband. I'm afraid of what he would do to them. He is on meds for anger issues. When he feels better he comes off them, which is dangerous and I fear he would harm them and himself. If I can stop that from happening, I will. I hope you have a clearer picture of what we are dealing with. My hubby believes him to be an actor, playing one person in front of my parents, and another when he is home. He feels he's not to be trusted. But my parents don't know everything because my sister has asked me not to tell them and worry them. Now her youngest son is acting out and getting into trouble. So I guess for me, there's more to this than just a Christmas visit. I feel I need to be near to the boys just in case something happens.

Lately they seem to be in a place of peace in their marriage. My BIL posted about how beautiful my sister is, how much he needs her and how God brought her into his life. But we have heard this time and again. He swings from high to low. I'm thinking finally things have settled, he's matured, or got ahold of God. And then a panic call from my sister again. It's a very sad situation.

I'll address this issue first. If there is severe emotional abuse like this, probably a 99% possibility there is physical abuse. Abusers who put their hands through walls, rarely stop at that. This BIL is a classic abuser. He will not change, because he has no reason to change. Your sister is his doormat. As for those times of peace? Part of the cycle of abuse. It used to be called "the honeymoon" period in the cycle of abuse.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycle_of_abuse

I really believe you need to stage an intervention & get your sister out of this dangerous position. It could easily escalate to severe physical abuse, as though the verbal abuse isn't bad enough as it is. Your sister deserves to find real love, or at least peace with no abuse. She is probably codependent and depressed. And she will hold out help that if she prays hard enough/behaves well enough/looks good enough, she will find a magic key which will open her husband's heart and they will live happily ever after. And that will not happen.

With your mom being so sick, you may not want to take on an intervention right now. I do understand! But think about this - your sister may be hurting as bad as your mom- esp if her husband is using her for a punching bag.

Your OP presented an infantile overt narcissist. My definition of a narcissist is "all about me!" Your BIL only cares about himself, and pleasing his parents. People with Narcissistic Personality Disorder, don't change. They can't! They don't want to! They don't care about anyone else, do they have no reason to change! Unless they get depressed, they will refuse to see a psychiatrist. This guy is not going to change. He's walked all over your sister & parents for 17 years now. He's not going to change. Even if you could somehow change his behaviour, he wouldn't be changing his heart. And that is the key to anyone changing.

God is in the business of changing hearts! But people with Personality Disorders who don't care, are not going to allow God to transform them. I've had a debate with God for quite a few years about whether someone with a Personality Disorder can be saved. They really are empty inside. It is a terrible type of mental illness. It really comes from the way he was raised, and you can blame his parents for that!

Sorry for the long post. The issue is about your BIL. He is never going to change. It is so sad he has kept the grandkids from your parents. But at this late stage, it might be nearly impossible to get out of this broken marriage. Your sister needs to leave her husband. Take the kids, and go. Right now, their roll model of a man is a selfish narcissist who only cares about himself. The kids are being damaged by living with their father.

Your sister needs to go to some group counselling. And not at a church which says all will improve if the wife is more submissive. Read the book "A Cry for Justice" by Jeff Crippen. It is a very moving account by a pastor who was doing marriage counselling, and seeing women beaten to death by their husbands. He has lots of practical ideas to help an abused wife leave her husband. God does not expect any woman to live with constant mental & physical abuse. That is a lie from the devil. Praying that your sister can be rescued out of this situation, along with her children!

 

[Rhomphaeam]

Yes, I believe him to be an emotional abuser. Of course I am not a professional, but they have been to several marriage counselors, most of them within the church. My BIL has smashed his fist through walls in there home. He has thrown her clothes out on the lawn, cursed her and told her to leave. He has smashed the childrens toys. He has broken endless phones and computers. He has threatened to commit suicide twice. He has told his children that women are crazy and drive you mad. Now I know my sister is human and she fails, no spouse is perfect. But I don't think anyone could call this normal. My husband believes my BIL has another woman on the side, I pray this is not true as it would devastate my sister and her boys. In their 20 yrs of marriage they continue to have some peaceful times, where it seems everything is ok, and then she is calling me and wanting prayer. I have told her if she decides to divorce him make sure she gives me time to get there with my husband. I'm afraid of what he would do to them. He is on meds for anger issues. When he feels better he comes off them, which is dangerous and I fear he would harm them and himself. If I can stop that from happening, I will. I hope you have a clearer picture of what we are dealing with. My hubby believes him to be an actor, playing one person in front of my parents, and another when he is home. He feels he's not to be trusted. But my parents don't know everything because my sister has asked me not to tell them and worry them. Now her youngest son is acting out and getting into trouble. So I guess for me, there's more to this than just a Christmas visit. I feel I need to be near to the boys just in case something happens.

Lately they seem to be in a place of peace in their marriage. My BIL posted about how beautiful my sister is, how much he needs her and how God brought her into his life. But we have heard this time and again. He swings from high to low. I'm thinking finally things have settled, he's matured, or got ahold of God. And then a panic call from my sister again. It's a very sad situation.

Just to touch base Sister. Thanks for the detail that really helps. I am at work at the moment (I work in Ministry and Mental Health) so I can't post until this evening (UK 21:00hrs) because I am with others to advocate or else to institute care in a formal setting that doesn't easily afford me the opportunity to engage in personal events within the work place. I do want to stress that what I wish to share with you is a spiritual solution and not a psychological solution. However, with regard to using the term spiritual I am gong to share foundational truth and not doctrinal truth - a distinction I can make when I post.

It is possible to reasonably second guess almost anything from what you have posted. One danger with doing that, is that the entirety of what could be said - could also be wholly wrong. This is because psychological modalities of treatment and counselling whilst extremely beneficial as talking therapies to address behaviour - the risk of faltering into pathological disorders as an explanation is extremely easy to do when there may be no pathology to support any claim that gives a deterministic causality to behaviour. and thus assert that a person cannot change. God Bless.

 

[Nehemiah6]

If she doesn't bring the kids up this weekend I don't know what to do.

Perhaps you've already done this, and perhaps you need to do it again. You need to sit down privately and face-to-face with your sister, and get to the bottom of this issue to come to an understanding. If she cares about her family she may decide that it is time to do the right thing. And if not, there is not much anyone can do.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Yes, I believe him to be an emotional abuser. Of course I am not a professional, but they have been to several marriage counselors, most of them within the church. My BIL has smashed his fist through walls in there home. He has thrown her clothes out on the lawn, cursed her and told her to leave. He has smashed the childrens toys. He has broken endless phones and computers. He has threatened to commit suicide twice. He has told his children that women are crazy and drive you mad. Now I know my sister is human and she fails, no spouse is perfect. But I don't think anyone could call this normal. My husband believes my BIL has another woman on the side, I pray this is not true as it would devastate my sister and her boys. In their 20 yrs of marriage they continue to have some peaceful times, where it seems everything is ok, and then she is calling me and wanting prayer. I have told her if she decides to divorce him make sure she gives me time to get there with my husband. I'm afraid of what he would do to them. He is on meds for anger issues. When he feels better he comes off them, which is dangerous and I fear he would harm them and himself. If I can stop that from happening, I will. I hope you have a clearer picture of what we are dealing with. My hubby believes him to be an actor, playing one person in front of my parents, and another when he is home. He feels he's not to be trusted. But my parents don't know everything because my sister has asked me not to tell them and worry them. Now her youngest son is acting out and getting into trouble. So I guess for me, there's more to this than just a Christmas visit. I feel I need to be near to the boys just in case something happens.

Lately they seem to be in a place of peace in their marriage. My BIL posted about how beautiful my sister is, how much he needs her and how God brought her into his life. But we have heard this time and again. He swings from high to low. I'm thinking finally things have settled, he's matured, or got ahold of God. And then a panic call from my sister again. It's a very sad situation.

Sounds like a mixture bipolar disorder and sociopathic tendencies. Almost exact to how my wife's sister was being treated. She fell for his antics and the abuser purposefully separated her from anyone who would get in the way of his control. Sadly she became brainwashed to the point even after leaving multiple times she would go back and eventually she only wanted him over the boys.

It is a difficult place to be but until you have evidence of illegal activity or the opportunity to help, we can only pray and do what we can to help.

 

[Lanolin]

Im going with the spiritual solution with this one
Its very easy to dismiss someone as narcisistic/bipolar/sociopathic/borderline and then say to the other person just 'leave' but in reality very hard to do (where exactly are they going to go? and if they leave whos to say the guy wont come after them in revenge? or threaten them or do something harmful?) and restraining orders dont always work. Your sister also married the guy (her own choice) but shes the one staying put.

If they come stay at yours or your parents are you sure BIL wont demand they come back and drive 2 hours to fetch them?

Dont dismiss prayer being effective but you need to know HOW to pray in this situation. If you are a christian who doesnt believe that spiritual warfare has any effect then it will not work.

Now if you sister is saved and her children then you must pray for them, as a family, for your sister to open her mouth and say the things the holy spirit will give her utterance to say. For your BIL and his parents bind the demons operating and for Jesus to set the captives (the children) free. Then bless them and break any curses off them.

If this is different from any other spiritual advice given I am only writing this with faith that God will intervene. Because He loves you and your family and they belong to Him.

 

[kaylagrl]

I'll address this issue first. If there is severe emotional abuse like this, probably a 99% possibility there is physical abuse. Abusers who put their hands through walls, rarely stop at that. This BIL is a classic abuser. He will not change, because he has no reason to change. Your sister is his doormat. As for those times of peace? Part of the cycle of abuse. It used to be called "the honeymoon" period in the cycle of abuse.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycle_of_abuse

I really believe you need to stage an intervention & get your sister out of this dangerous position. It could easily escalate to severe physical abuse, as though the verbal abuse isn't bad enough as it is. Your sister deserves to find real love, or at least peace with no abuse. She is probably codependent and depressed. And she will hold out help that if she prays hard enough/behaves well enough/looks good enough, she will find a magic key which will open her husband's heart and they will live happily ever after. And that will not happen.

With your mom being so sick, you may not want to take on an intervention right now. I do understand! But think about this - your sister may be hurting as bad as your mom- esp if her husband is using her for a punching bag.

Your OP presented an infantile overt narcissist. My definition of a narcissist is "all about me!" Your BIL only cares about himself, and pleasing his parents. People with Narcissistic Personality Disorder, don't change. They can't! They don't want to! They don't care about anyone else, do they have no reason to change! Unless they get depressed, they will refuse to see a psychiatrist. This guy is not going to change. He's walked all over your sister & parents for 17 years now. He's not going to change. Even if you could somehow change his behaviour, he wouldn't be changing his heart. And that is the key to anyone changing.

God is in the business of changing hearts! But people with Personality Disorders who don't care, are not going to allow God to transform them. I've had a debate with God for quite a few years about whether someone with a Personality Disorder can be saved. They really are empty inside. It is a terrible type of mental illness. It really comes from the way he was raised, and you can blame his parents for that!

Sorry for the long post. The issue is about your BIL. He is never going to change. It is so sad he has kept the grandkids from your parents. But at this late stage, it might be nearly impossible to get out of this broken marriage. Your sister needs to leave her husband. Take the kids, and go. Right now, their roll model of a man is a selfish narcissist who only cares about himself. The kids are being damaged by living with their father.

Your sister needs to go to some group counselling. And not at a church which says all will improve if the wife is more submissive. Read the book "A Cry for Justice" by Jeff Crippen. It is a very moving account by a pastor who was doing marriage counselling, and seeing women beaten to death by their husbands. He has lots of practical ideas to help an abused wife leave her husband. God does not expect any woman to live with constant mental & physical abuse. That is a lie from the devil. Praying that your sister can be rescued out of this situation, along with her children!

Thank you sister, and each of you for making your points. As I said, it seems right now as if my sister is in a peaceful cycle with her husband. She very much feels that she loves this man and that God has called her to stay. She told me once that he is a good father, and I told her that anyone that abuses their wife is not a good father. I have not found evidence yet that he has put hands on her. His father did beat his mother, he told me that himself.

About a year ago my parents called me and told me my sister was looking for me. I told my husband to pray, it was serious. My sister never calls unless things are bad. She told me she had divorce papers. But at that point I feared for her safety and the boys. His family would uphold whatever he did. In fact his mother told my sister once that if she disappeared, not to look for her. Hinting that it was her husband that killed her. smh And so I begged her to let me and my husband get there before she did anything. By the time she arrived home she had changed her mind. And back into the peaceful cycle they went.

While my nephews are great kids and very respectful, I'm seeing signs in both that worry me. The youngest began to hoard garbage under his bed in his room. Then he did the same thing when he visited my parents. My sister talked to him and he couldn't say why he was doing it. She put both boys on meds, similar to their fathers. The oldest told me last visit that he was never going on those pills again, that they messed up his mind and stressed him. Personally I believe the boys were put on meds to keep them from causing my BIL any upset. To keep them calm.

My BIL and I personally have come close to blows. When I began to date my hubby, for some reason my BIL made lots of drama and he and I had a come to Jesus meeting. But now that I'm married he's very respectful of both of us. We have had peace in the family with him and he was even coming up and allowing the kids and my sister to come up here lately. Of course we want things to change, we want everyone to get along, to have peace. But it's like the waves on a sea. You never know where you stand.

A very odd thing is that since my sister has married my BIL has always told me crude jokes when no one else is around. Usually the jokes are sexual in nature. He's never made a pass at me, my sister and I look totally different, zero attraction there I'm certain. I always shrugged it off that he works with all men and doesn't realize the jokes are offensive, or too far. But one night my FB page was open and my hubby happened to see something my BIL had said to me. He was very upset and I shrugged and said he's always talked to me that way. He treats me like a trucker friend. My husband was very offended and said he would never speak to my sister like that. So I said he and I never communicate except over having the boys come to stay. It's not an issue. I limited our communication further. Yet still, when he catches me alone he tells these jokes. I don't tell my husband because I know he will do something about it, and then my BIL will pull back the kids and hurt my parents again.

When it comes down to it my sister will not let go of him. She does not eat. Very restrictive diet. She's getting older now and she's in a panic. She exercises to the point of exhaustion. She only eats when he doesn't visit with them. She's nothing but bones. I know she is doing it for his sake. My husband mentions how ill my sister looks. She thinks she looks young and attractive, and she is a beautiful woman, but looks like a Holocaust survivor. She believes God wants her to stay. As many times as she has said she is leaving, she has some peace and changes her mind. Other than prayer I don't see a way out. The last time she was here she told me my BIL was possibly running for mayor of their town. He's very involved in their small town. That worries me because I know he will take on the job and the pressure will be too much. There will be drama again and the peaceful cycle will be over. smh

 

[kaylagrl]

Im going with the spiritual solution with this one
Its very easy to dismiss someone as narcisistic/bipolar/sociopathic/borderline and then say to the other person just 'leave' but in reality very hard to do (where exactly are they going to go? and if they leave whos to say the guy wont come after them in revenge? or threaten them or do something harmful?) and restraining orders dont always work. Your sister also married the guy (her own choice) but shes the one staying put.

If they come stay at yours or your parents are you sure BIL wont demand they come back and drive 2 hours to fetch them?

Dont dismiss prayer being effective but you need to know HOW to pray in this situation. If you are a christian who doesnt believe that spiritual warfare has any effect then it will not work.

Now if you sister is saved and her children then you must pray for them, as a family, for your sister to open her mouth and say the things the holy spirit will give her utterance to say. For your BIL and his parents bind the demons operating and for Jesus to set the captives (the children) free. Then bless them and break any curses off them.

If this is different from any other spiritual advice given I am only writing this with faith that God will intervene. Because He loves you and your family and they belong to Him.

Oh I know he would come after the kids. He has a daughter that is grown now from another marriage. She has a child. But I doubt he would let the boys go. I feel he has pushed the boys to serve in the military as he did. He won't let that go.

I do believe in spiritual warfare. In fact the last time they boys were here I asked my father to anoint the boys with oil (father is an evangelist). He did and a couple days later my sister called and told me the youngest broke his collarbone when he jumped from his 3 wheeler. His cousin was pretending he was going to run in to him and it scared my nephew so he jumped off a moving vehicle. I believe the Lord put it in my heart to pray for and anoint the boys.

We have another issue there as this young cousin has been getting my youngest nephew into trouble. And my nephew is a follower it seems. But I certainly do believe in spiritual warfare.