Does 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 Teach Jesus Will Return With Dead Saints Now With Him In Heaven?

[Pilgrimshope]

if you call people unnstable for disagreeing with you and disliking you then i guess im guilty as charged. And do you thinking blocking me is a threat-seriously? How about we both block each other— hows that sound?

“if you call people unnstable for disagreeing with you and disliking you then i guess im guilty as charged.”

I actually asked if you were jokingly lol but yes your Distain for me has been evident for Months that’s why I stopped communicating with you constantly the same trolling and then you inventing things I didn’t say so you can argue d bicker so yes I’d say that’s evident

so why not just move on and bicker with others ? I don’t ever communicate with you , mention you or interact or talk about in any way , until you start the same repetitive straw man arguments and accusations towards me

so let’s be adults and just move on and interact with others maybe not argue with everyone and bicker and best grudges and stuff

this isn’t to argue but I’m just telling you the truth it doesn’t matter to me if you don’t like me that has no impact on me in any way. But it does have a really hard impact on you.

let it go sister , I have a long time ago. I wish you the very best in life , and a better and stronger walk with Jesus but grudge bearing isn’t the way nor is trolling and misrepresenting things I say

God bless let’s have peace now

 

[Runningman]

Being brought from death to life, coming from the grave to meet the lord in the air.
"them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring (To life) with him"
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

"will God G2316 bring G71 with G4862 him. G846"

G2316 = theos, a deity, supreme Divinity,
G71 = agō, A primary verb; properly to lead; by implication to bring, drive, (reflexively) go, (specifically) pass (time), or (figuratively) induce: - be, bring (forth), carry, (let) go, keep, lead away, be open.
G4862 = sun, A primary preposition denoting union; with or together (but much closer than G3326 or G3844), that is, by association, companionship, process, resemblance, possession, instrumentality, addition, etc.: - beside, with. In compounds it has similar applications, including completeness.

It looks like it can be interpreted two different ways. What I see is that the "dead in Christ" are in the ground waiting to be resurrected and the "sleeping in Christ" are being brought somewhere with God while they are sleeping.

I can't agree that the "bringing" action that God performs with those who are "asleep in Christ" is a reference to being brought from "death to life" because G71 = agō, A primary verb that is often used when talking about bringing something or someone from one geographic location to another: see Matt. 10:18, Acts 23:10, and 2 Tim. 4:11 just to name a few random examples.

Furthermore, what I see is that the "dead in Christ" being brought from death to life is only described as a resurrection in 1 Thess. 4:14-17 and not bringing dead people anywhere. When these resurrected people are finally moved, it's when they are transported to the sky to meet Jesus. They aren't dead or sleeping at this point so that doesn't fit verse 14.

That's how I see that those who are "asleep in Christ" being brought by God is a reference to sleeping spirits in heaven being brought to Earth, united with their bodies, resurrected, then raptured in resurrection form. The purpose of this whole event is to complete the resurrection and ascension to heaven. The resurrection and rapture is an image of what happened to Jesus post-crucifixion. This makes more sense to me.

 

[John146]

While a proper name is usually avoided by Jesus in His parables, He used "Lazarus" in the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus to prove that which Abraham declared to be so at the end of the parable:

If it were only a parable then there was no Abraham's voice. It's just a parable, no literal voice.

I guess you believe in annihilation of the soul? That every one of us is going to live forever somewhere?

 

[John146]

“And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul;

the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:45-49‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We’re not being remade into living souls we already are we’re being born again as spiritual beings made in Gods image and likeness made for the eternal kingdom

Jesus has a body of flesh and bones, no blood. It is a spiritual body that can pass through objects and disappear and reappear from one place to another.

 

[John146]

It looks like it can be interpreted two different ways. What I see is that the "dead in Christ" are in the ground waiting to be resurrected and the "sleeping in Christ" are being brought somewhere with God while they are sleeping.

I can't agree that the "bringing" action that God performs with those who are "asleep in Christ" is a reference to being brought from "death to life" because G71 = agō, A primary verb that is often used when talking about bringing something or someone from one geographic location to another: see Matt. 10:18, Acts 23:10, and 2 Tim. 4:11 just to name a few random examples.

Furthermore, what I see is that the "dead in Christ" being brought from death to life is only described as a resurrection in 1 Thess. 4:14-17 and not bringing dead people anywhere. When these resurrected people are finally moved, it's when they are transported to the sky to meet Jesus. They aren't dead or sleeping at this point so that doesn't fit verse 14.

That's how I see that those who are "asleep in Christ" being brought by God is a reference to sleeping spirits in heaven being brought to Earth, united with their bodies, resurrected, then raptured in resurrection form. The purpose of this whole event is to complete the resurrection and ascension to heaven. The resurrection and rapture is an image of what happened to Jesus post-crucifixion. This makes more sense to me.

Absent from the body is present with the Lord. Is that just for Paul or all believers?

 

[Phoneman-777]

The great Protestant Reformer William Tyndale, like Luther and so many others, understood that the Soul was not immortal, and that the dead saints did not go to heaven or hell until their respective resurrections. They also knew from whence this doctrine originated in the Christian church, and once again, we see Protestantism falling all over itself to follow the Beast:

"The true faith putteth forth the resurrection which we be warned to look for every hour. The heathen philosophers, denying that, did put forth that the souls did ever live. And the Pope joineth the spiritual doctrine of Christ and the fleshly doctrine of philosophers together; things so contrary that they cannot agree any more than the spirit and the flesh can agree in a Christian man. And because the fleshly minded pope consenteth unto heathen doctrine, therefore he corrupteth the Scripture to establish it.​

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And when he (Sir Thomas Moore) proveth that the saints be in heaven in glory with Christ already, saying, “If God be there God, they be in heaven, for he is not the God of the dead,” there he stealeth away Christ's argument wherewith He proveth the resurrection: that Abraham and all the saints should rise again, and not that the souls were in heaven; which doctrine was not yet in the world. And with that doctrine he taketh away the resurrection quite, and maketh Christ's argument of none effect." -- An Answer to (papal theologian) Sir Thomas Moore Dialogue, pp. 180,118​

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Modern "protestants" so agree with the papacy, I can't understand why they just don't call up a papal priest and arrange a baptism into the Whore of Babylon.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Jesus has a body of flesh and bones, no blood. It is a spiritual body that can pass through objects and disappear and reappear from one place to another.

yeah I agree , what’s your point ? When we die it’s only our natural flesh body That dies , when we are raised up it’s our spiritual glorified body

“It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:44‬ ‭

Sort of off topic but have you ever noticed this ?

“And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing. But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭8:39-40‬ ‭KJV‬‬

no point to that just found it interesting

 

[Runningman]

Absent from the body is present with the Lord. Is that just for Paul or all believers?

Absolutely applies to everyone.

2 Cor. 5:6-8 KJV
6Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7(For we walk by faith, not by sight: )8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Ecc. 12:7 KJV
7Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

 

[John146]

Absolutely applies to everyone.

2 Cor. 5:6-8 KJV
6Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7(For we walk by faith, not by sight: )8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Ecc. 12:7 KJV
7Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Man is a tri-part being, body, soul, and spirit. Every man's spirit returns to God. The body returns to the earth. Man's soul is what's at stake. It is who we are. We, our soul, dwells in a body of flesh that is brought to life by our spirit which is given by God, the giver of all life.

 

[Laura798]

It looks like it can be interpreted two different ways. What I see is that the "dead in Christ" are in the ground waiting to be resurrected and the "sleeping in Christ" are being brought somewhere with God while they are sleeping.

I can't agree that the "bringing" action that God performs with those who are "asleep in Christ" is a reference to being brought from "death to life" because G71 = agō, A primary verb that is often used when talking about bringing something or someone from one geographic location to another: see Matt. 10:18, Acts 23:10, and 2 Tim. 4:11 just to name a few random examples.

Furthermore, what I see is that the "dead in Christ" being brought from death to life is only described as a resurrection in 1 Thess. 4:14-17 and not bringing dead people anywhere. When these resurrected people are finally moved, it's when they are transported to the sky to meet Jesus. They aren't dead or sleeping at this point so that doesn't fit verse 14.

That's how I see that those who are "asleep in Christ" being brought by God is a reference to sleeping spirits in heaven being brought to Earth, united with their bodies, resurrected, then raptured in resurrection form. The purpose of this whole event is to complete the resurrection and ascension to heaven. The resurrection and rapture is an image of what happened to Jesus post-crucifixion. This makes more sense to me.

Runningman, read all the verses that speak of Christs coming— clearly it says thr dead in Christ will RISE And notice there is a subtle but very important difference in how youre reading 1st Thess 4. It is God bringing along with Jesus the risen saints— from the point of their meeting which is in the air.
"For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him (referring to Christ).”-1st Thessalonians 4:14

There are several doctrinal
errors that must be believed if you think a persons soul or spirit go to heaven directly at death.
1. The immortality of the soul
2. Neither group must face the judgment if they go straight to heaven or hell.
3. Believers can get into heaven without their immortal bodies.
4. Christ Second coming is unimportant and unnecessary if there is no judgment and believers go directly to heaven without Christs having to escort them as scripture clearly says.

Note the sleeping mechanism works in concert with both the body and the soul. When the breath of life is taken away so is the persons soul— lights out until God does His last days resescitation on all of mankind— they will all RISE— they will not and cannot come down- they cannot enter the heavenly kingdom without the bridegroom coming for them and without their wedding clothes ( new immortal bodies)

 

[Runningman]

Man is a tri-part being, body, soul, and spirit. Every man's spirit returns to God. The body returns to the earth. Man's soul is what's at stake. It is who we are. We, our soul, dwells in a body of flesh that is brought to life by our spirit which is given by God, the giver of all life.

Yes and while the body, soul, and spirit are separate things, they can also be divided from each other as Hebrews 4:12 shows. I totally agree with you, but what does it mean? Our spirit returns to God, then what is our soul doing while the spirit is with God?

Here's a clue:

Revelation 20:4-6 KJV
4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The souls were resurrected; they "came to life." Those who are now living seems to refer to those who were resurrected. Do you agree with that?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Yes and while the body, soul, and spirit are separate things, they can also be divided from each other as Hebrews 4:12 shows. I totally agree with you, but what does it mean? Our spirit returns to God, then what is our soul doing while the spirit is with God?

consider the living soul to be something that’s created when a spirit inhabits a body. That makes a living soul. But the soul now exists and is carried with the living part of us the spirit.

the flesh seems to be like an incubator of sorts to be crude , like the living soul a spirit inside a mortal flesh body is only the first step of our creation we’re actually meant to be spiritual beings . Created in Gods image

so the second step is to extract the soul from the dead part and Create beings made in christs resurrected image spiritual body made for the new things to come where bodies no longer die but living souls are saved in a new body

I think the answer is that it’s only our corrupted body that dies but we have eternal bodies to replace them. I think it’s part of one plan to make Gods children and fill the new world

We began like adam but we’re not going to be resurrected like Adam

“And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:49‬ ‭

earthly body seems to be the first stage of it me the finality is to be made like Jesus into heavenly glorofoed children of God

 

[Laura798]

Absolutely applies to everyone.

2 Cor. 5:6-8 KJV
6Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7(For we walk by faith, not by sight: )8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Ecc. 12:7 KJV
7Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

There is no passage of time from when we’re dead to we are raised — it will be a twinkling of an eye— even if thousands of years have passed. And reread the entire section slowly and carefully— it does not say what you think it says. We will be absent from our present bodies only whenChrist comes again.

“ For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.”—1st Corinthians 15:53

“ Dear friends, we are already God’s children, but he has not yet shown us what we will be like when Christ appears. But we do know that we will be like him, for we will see him as he really is.”-1st John 3:2

Please read the scriptures you quoted “absent from the body” in its entire context— the section is about our new bodies we will receive at the Judgment

New Bodies

“5 For we know that when this earthly tent we live in is taken down (that is, when we die and leave this earthly body), we will have a house in heaven, an eternal body made for us by God himself and not by human hands. 2 We grow weary in our present bodies, and we long to put on our heavenly bodies like new clothing. 3 For we will put on heavenly bodies; we will not be spirits without bodies.[a] 4 While we live in these earthly bodies, we groan and sigh, but it’s not that we want to die and get rid of these bodies that clothe us. Rather, we want to put on our new bodies so that these dying bodies will be swallowed up by life. 5 God himself has prepared us for this, and as a guarantee he has given us his Holy Spirit.

6 So we are always confident, even though we know that as long as we live in these bodies we are not at home with the Lord. 7 For we live by believing and not by seeing. 8 Yes, we are fully confident, and we would rather be away from these earthly bodies, for then we will be at home with the Lord. 9 So whether we are here in this body or away from this body, our goal is to please him. 10 For we must all stand before Christ to be judged. We will each receive whatever we deserve for the good or evil we have done in this earthly body.”—-
2 Corinthians 5:1-10

 

[Laura798]

Because it isn't a parable. Has no characteristics of a parable. Jesus wasn't "teaching in parables" when He described a scene in Sheol.


While all that may be true, when Jesus named TWO people who had lived and died, His account was a personal account of life after death for OT people.


OK, which verse says that souls will be "engulfed in flames"??? Why are you now having to make up stuff to make your point?

Have you ever read the account in Luke 16? The man in Torments was "hot" and wanted a drop of water to cool his tongue. Nothing about flames. He was actually exhibiting what the name of the place he was in...torments.

It is obvious that he was in torment over his lost 5 brothers who he wanted to avoid where he ended up. As well as being hot.

Can you show any parable where Jesus named real people?

Nothing about flames? Hmm?🤔

“And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.”—Luke 16:24

What is the place of Torments you are referring to? The parable clearly uses the word as a verb not a noun as you did here. the parable says the rich man is in Hades.

Here is an article explaining the meaning of the parable. Note how Jesus ties all the you are referring toparablthem all 5 parables together with the words and / or. Also the preceding parable starts the same way “A certain man” as many of His parables do.
https://therealgospelofchrist.com/the-parable-of-the-rich-man-and-lazarus

 

[Phoneman-777]

Absent from the body is present with the Lord. Is that just for Paul or all believers?

People have heard this verse misquoted so often they run right over it without considering it. What he says is we are confident and willing "rather to be absent from the body and present with the Lord" which is far less rigid than the misquote, "absent from the body is to be present with the Lord."

So, ,what's Paul saying? He speaks not of two, but three possibilities:
(1) clothed in our current "earthly house" body
(2) clothed in our "tabernacle made without hands eternal in the heavens" resurrection body
(3) being "unclothed" and "naked" which obviously means "dead in the grave without a body".

How do we know "naked" and "unclothed" excludes heavenly occupation? Because Paul plainly says we don't put on the garment of "immortality" or put on the garment of "incorruption" - both of which refer to the resurrection body - until "the last trump" when "the dead are raised incorruptible and we shall be changed" at the Second Coming, nor did he expect the crown of righteousness until "at His appearing".

Paul is simply pointing to how believers now groan with aches, pains, and heartache in our present body, but we don't relief from that to come from being "unclothed" and "naked" resting in the grave without a body and awaiting the resurrection, but that we want to skip that and go on to be in Jesus in heaven with our resurrection body.

 

[Phoneman-777]

You’re using an appeal to having secret or privileged knowledge as a literary device to try to persuade others to try to follow you. The problem with that is that you don’t speak on authority of the scriptures and for several pages now people have shown you you’re wrong. This logical fallacy is known as appeal to the minority, e.g. "What I am saying is true because most people do not believe it."

It's also argumentum ad verecundiam, or an appeal to false authority. You quote your own opinions and authority as the source of truth. Obviously that's a big red flag.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 refutes your thesis.

Ecclesiastes 12:7
7Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. 8Vanity of vanities, saith the preacher; all is vanity.

Ain't nothin secret about Hebrew Chiastic structure, and if more false pulpit prophets would spend more time on hermeneutics rather than how to make church more ecumenical, this false interpretation of 1 Thessalonians 4:14 to support "immortal soul" doctrine would disappear.

 

[Phoneman-777]

DavidTree said:
Rich man and Lazarus do not have their physical bodies in Luke ch16 =

How else could the rich man recognize Abraham?

The Rich Man SHOULD NOT BE ABLE to recognize Abraham because Solomon plainly says "the dead know not anything, neither have they any more a reward for the memory of them is forgotten."

He shouldn't know or remember what Abraham looks like...unless he's the subject of a parable where things happen that cannot and do not happen in real experience.

 

[Phoneman-777]

The inescapable conclusion is that there is no such thing as soul sleep. Jesus' account in Luke 16 of a beggar and rich man who died proves that the dead aren't sleeping.

Rev 6 and the 5th seal describe the souls of dead people in heaven asking for revenge and even shouting. They aren't sleeping.

Paul taught that being "absent from the body", meaning physical death when the soul leaves the body, is being "at home with the Lord".

Paul said nothing about the soul sleeping.

The better explanation of what "sleeping" refers to when describing someone who has died is that their physical body is sleeping. Which will be resurrected when Jesus comes.

It's a parable, as evidenced by all the things happening in it that the rest of the Bible says is impossible.

 

[Runningman]

Ain't nothin secret about Hebrew Chiastic structure, and if more false pulpit prophets would spend more time on hermeneutics rather than how to make church more ecumenical, this false interpretation of 1 Thessalonians 4:14 to support "immortal soul" doctrine would disappear.

For the record, we may disagree on some of these things here about 1 Thess. 4, but I don't believe in an immortal soul. The soul clearly can die or be destroyed according to scripture.

 

[Phoneman-777]

James 5:20 is a rebuke against your unbelief

Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.

You have wandered from the Truth = See JESUS words of Truth in Post #166

I see reading comprehension is not your strong suit

If a soul can be saved from death, then it's possible for it so suffer death, else it wouldn't need saving!