Does 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 Teach Jesus Will Return With Dead Saints Now With Him In Heaven?
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@Phoneman-777
did Christ cease to exist when He laid His body down in death?
wow seems He wasn't annihilated huh
got any idea why God's Word constantly disagrees with the doctrine you teach?
did Christ cease to exist when He laid His body down in death?
foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ,
that His soul was not left in Hades
(Acts 2:31)
that His soul was not left in Hades
(Acts 2:31)
wow seems He wasn't annihilated huh
got any idea why God's Word constantly disagrees with the doctrine you teach?
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For you were like sheep going astray,
but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.
(1 Peter 2:25)
does My Shepherd lose even one of His souls? ((hint: nope. John 6:39 - which, incidentally, this verse says He raises up the souls of His sheep, not 'creates new replacement ones because all the originals are annihilated'))seems to me if a soul ceased to exist that would count as "lost"
You said, " the debased carnal atheistic evolutionary monist definition you love? "
I know by reading this you cannot a true Christian. This is slanderous, Not one thing PM or I have said is atheistic, or carnal or evolutionary, or monist. I stand with him because what he says is true. I stand with him the same way Peter would stand with Paul.
"Nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. "--1st Corinthians 6:10
I know by reading this you cannot a true Christian. This is slanderous, Not one thing PM or I have said is atheistic, or carnal or evolutionary, or monist. I stand with him because what he says is true. I stand with him the same way Peter would stand with Paul.
"Nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. "--1st Corinthians 6:10
i realize you do not comprehend what you read, so i'm going to break it down for you again:
monism:
the belief that people are singularly physical beings who cease to exist when the body dies
that's your definition of "death" is it not? cessation of existence?
that's tele-person's express doctrine.
it is also the atheist's doctrine; it is by very definition carnal because it depends wholly on the flesh, and it is in 100% opposition to scripture, as has been established over and over and over in this thread.
you hold this, and by doing so you call Christ a liar and God a purveyor of Satanic myths.
you wave your hand and say 'figurative!' but you call those very figures Satanic lies, so you call God a Satanic liar.
your doctrine says Christ teaches by Beelzebub.
it's wretched, and false.
go find me the Bible's definition of life
monism:
the belief that people are singularly physical beings who cease to exist when the body dies
that's your definition of "death" is it not? cessation of existence?
that's tele-person's express doctrine.
it is also the atheist's doctrine; it is by very definition carnal because it depends wholly on the flesh, and it is in 100% opposition to scripture, as has been established over and over and over in this thread.
you hold this, and by doing so you call Christ a liar and God a purveyor of Satanic myths.
you wave your hand and say 'figurative!' but you call those very figures Satanic lies, so you call God a Satanic liar.
your doctrine says Christ teaches by Beelzebub.
it's wretched, and false.
go find me the Bible's definition of life
celldude has been constantly calling God a liar and teacher of Satanic myth.
have you really not been paying any attention at all, dear??
ask your compatriot tele-person whether Christ's words in Luke 16 are pagan lies from hell or not.
we've been over this. you said, oh, no, you didn't notice, and then you went right back to eating from his trough and violently assailing anyone who brings scripture to bear exposing the falsehood of dial-a-man's teachings.
have you really not been paying any attention at all, dear??
ask your compatriot tele-person whether Christ's words in Luke 16 are pagan lies from hell or not.
we've been over this. you said, oh, no, you didn't notice, and then you went right back to eating from his trough and violently assailing anyone who brings scripture to bear exposing the falsehood of dial-a-man's teachings.
No, they aren't.
Isa 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
It doesn't say the people never die. You also skipped over that it was speaking about carcasses which are dead bodies not living bodies. Worms also do not feed on living bodies. Nothing there supports your doctrine.
This is describing enemies that physically died and are rotting with worms. The bodies are being burned but all can't be burned at the same time. This is unrelated to lake of fire punishment. This about how humans have to deal with dead bodies after a war to prevent diseases etc from plaguing the living.
Isa 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
It doesn't say the people never die. You also skipped over that it was speaking about carcasses which are dead bodies not living bodies. Worms also do not feed on living bodies. Nothing there supports your doctrine.
This is describing enemies that physically died and are rotting with worms. The bodies are being burned but all can't be burned at the same time. This is unrelated to lake of fire punishment. This about how humans have to deal with dead bodies after a war to prevent diseases etc from plaguing the living.
FreeGrace2 said:
Oh, what a softie. But go tell God how unfair He is then.
Why don't you realize that IF the 2 theories were correct (soul sleep and annihilation) then there is NO need of a Savior. Unbelievers can live like hell and face NO CONSEQUENCES whatsoever.
I am because your arguments fail to align with Scripture. When clear evidence of life (not sleepy-time) after death is presented, you guys (and girl) claim the evidence is merely a parable. Nonsense. It is a very literal account of a beggar who went to Paradise and SAT in Abraham's bosom. I don't care what you call it. It is clearly NOT a parable.
Even if it was, why on earth would Jesus make up such a ludicrous story about dead people talking to each other, if that's NOT what happens. You can't defend your own claims.
And why haven't you addressed my points in post 424 about the TOTAL LACK OF CONSEQUENCE for unbelievers. At death, they go beddy-by and after a brief resurrection, they cease to exist.
All of which is nothing other than NO CONSEQUENCE.
Do you worry, or feel joy, or feel anything when you are sleeping? No. So don't give me any of this soul sleep/annihilation nonsense.
Why did Jesus tell a thief that he would be with Jesus in Paradise? Was that just an invite to a slumber party?
Seems NONE of you get it. The sinful human nature that WANTS to live like hell while on earth and then check out and cease to exist would have no problem with that at all. In fact, THAT is the exact view of atheists. They think they will simply cease to exist when they die. So, in essence, there is NOTHING that threatens them with getting away with whatever they want to do.
Why on the earth can't you see this glaring issue?
Good grief. And you seem to be unable to comprehend words either.
I never said what you have fantasized about what I said. I was saying there is NO CONSEQUENCE for those who live like hell on earth if they go to sleep at death and then cease to exist after the GWT judgment.
There are no doubt counless people who would DEFINITELY choose to live like hell and then cease to exist (meaning NO CONSEQUENCE) rather than become a Christian. Anyone who doesn't believe that is just naive beyond belief.
Oh, you are so wrong again. But I reject your nonsense about physical death being sleepy-time and the second death being ceasing to exist. What garbage. If those were true, then there would be NO CONSEQUENCES for unbelievers.
So naive. Because your warped definition of "perish" is to cease to exist, countless people would easily choose to live like hell and then cease to exist rather than living for Christ.
btw, since your views on soul sleep/annihilation remove ALL consequences for unbelief, those warped views remove the very reason that Jesus came to earth and paid the sin debt.
So please explain to me what Jesus is actually saving anyone from? Since there are NO CONSEQUENCES for unbelief in your system.
OK. If you think that means ceasing to exist, where are the consequences of sin then?
What does Jesus SAVE us from? It can't be the lake of fire, if one simply ceases to exist when cast into it.
That couldn't be a more ridiculous statement. I absolutely do believe that He did.
It is YOUR warped theories that make His death worthless and meaningless IF dead souls sleep and the second death is simply ceasing to exist.
Once again, just to remind you, when sleeping or ceasing to exist, there are NO feelings at all; either of joy or suffering. Zero.
That is what I mean about NO CONSEQUENCES. No guilt, no shame, no regret, no cares at all.
<sigh>. The verse about "no more sorrow" only applies to saved people, or didn't you know that?
It's really difficult trying to have a real discussion with people who are so clueless about the Bible.
Why would you think "no more sorrow" applies to the unsaved?
Again, please answer the question about what Jesus SAVES people FROM? I can't imagine from your theories.
Oh, what a softie. But go tell God how unfair He is then.
Why don't you realize that IF the 2 theories were correct (soul sleep and annihilation) then there is NO need of a Savior. Unbelievers can live like hell and face NO CONSEQUENCES whatsoever.
I am because your arguments fail to align with Scripture. When clear evidence of life (not sleepy-time) after death is presented, you guys (and girl) claim the evidence is merely a parable. Nonsense. It is a very literal account of a beggar who went to Paradise and SAT in Abraham's bosom. I don't care what you call it. It is clearly NOT a parable.
Even if it was, why on earth would Jesus make up such a ludicrous story about dead people talking to each other, if that's NOT what happens. You can't defend your own claims.
And why haven't you addressed my points in post 424 about the TOTAL LACK OF CONSEQUENCE for unbelievers. At death, they go beddy-by and after a brief resurrection, they cease to exist.
All of which is nothing other than NO CONSEQUENCE.
Do you worry, or feel joy, or feel anything when you are sleeping? No. So don't give me any of this soul sleep/annihilation nonsense.
Why did Jesus tell a thief that he would be with Jesus in Paradise? Was that just an invite to a slumber party?
Seems NONE of you get it. The sinful human nature that WANTS to live like hell while on earth and then check out and cease to exist would have no problem with that at all. In fact, THAT is the exact view of atheists. They think they will simply cease to exist when they die. So, in essence, there is NOTHING that threatens them with getting away with whatever they want to do.
Why on the earth can't you see this glaring issue?
Good grief. And you seem to be unable to comprehend words either.
I never said what you have fantasized about what I said. I was saying there is NO CONSEQUENCE for those who live like hell on earth if they go to sleep at death and then cease to exist after the GWT judgment.
There are no doubt counless people who would DEFINITELY choose to live like hell and then cease to exist (meaning NO CONSEQUENCE) rather than become a Christian. Anyone who doesn't believe that is just naive beyond belief.
Oh, you are so wrong again. But I reject your nonsense about physical death being sleepy-time and the second death being ceasing to exist. What garbage. If those were true, then there would be NO CONSEQUENCES for unbelievers.
So naive. Because your warped definition of "perish" is to cease to exist, countless people would easily choose to live like hell and then cease to exist rather than living for Christ.
btw, since your views on soul sleep/annihilation remove ALL consequences for unbelief, those warped views remove the very reason that Jesus came to earth and paid the sin debt.
So please explain to me what Jesus is actually saving anyone from? Since there are NO CONSEQUENCES for unbelief in your system.
OK. If you think that means ceasing to exist, where are the consequences of sin then?
What does Jesus SAVE us from? It can't be the lake of fire, if one simply ceases to exist when cast into it.
That couldn't be a more ridiculous statement. I absolutely do believe that He did.
It is YOUR warped theories that make His death worthless and meaningless IF dead souls sleep and the second death is simply ceasing to exist.
Once again, just to remind you, when sleeping or ceasing to exist, there are NO feelings at all; either of joy or suffering. Zero.
That is what I mean about NO CONSEQUENCES. No guilt, no shame, no regret, no cares at all.
<sigh>. The verse about "no more sorrow" only applies to saved people, or didn't you know that?
It's really difficult trying to have a real discussion with people who are so clueless about the Bible.
Why would you think "no more sorrow" applies to the unsaved?
Again, please answer the question about what Jesus SAVES people FROM? I can't imagine from your theories.
FreeGrace2 said:
I'm really not interested in the opinions of those who believe there will be NO CONSEQUENCES whatsoever for unbelievers.
Good grief! Can't you guys even read a post? I'm talking directly about YOUR warped soul sleep/annihilation notions.
I know what the idiot universalists believe. They can't read Scripture any better than those of your ilk can.
Your question comes from a very warped view of the Bible. In fact, you've misunderstood these verses totally.
Says who? Where do you get these little nuggets? Not from the Bible, you don't. So quit making up stuff.
Bottom line: when sleeping, there are no emotions to deal with. No grief, no sorrow, no pain, no guilt, no shame, no worry, etc. etc.
If a person ceases to exist, the same result ensues: no grief, no sorrow, no pain, no guilt, no shame, no worry, etc, etc.
iow, NO CONSEQUENCES for anything.
That obviously removes any worry about suffering the consequences for bad decisions/behavior.
So, what does Jesus SAVE people FROM, given your soul sleep/annihilation theory?
I'm really not interested in the opinions of those who believe there will be NO CONSEQUENCES whatsoever for unbelievers.
Good grief! Can't you guys even read a post? I'm talking directly about YOUR warped soul sleep/annihilation notions.
I know what the idiot universalists believe. They can't read Scripture any better than those of your ilk can.
Your question comes from a very warped view of the Bible. In fact, you've misunderstood these verses totally.
Says who? Where do you get these little nuggets? Not from the Bible, you don't. So quit making up stuff.
Bottom line: when sleeping, there are no emotions to deal with. No grief, no sorrow, no pain, no guilt, no shame, no worry, etc. etc.
If a person ceases to exist, the same result ensues: no grief, no sorrow, no pain, no guilt, no shame, no worry, etc, etc.
iow, NO CONSEQUENCES for anything.
That obviously removes any worry about suffering the consequences for bad decisions/behavior.
So, what does Jesus SAVE people FROM, given your soul sleep/annihilation theory?
The living who did not take the Mark of the Beast, and the newborn kids who become adults, and gave children themselves etc. etc. I think some are those who did take the Mark of the Beast also, but who weren't a part of the 1/3 who the 200 Million Angelic Army killed in the 2nd Woe, and who weren't dumb enough to try and defeat God at Armageddon, Preacher Jimmy Evans thinks that is what is meant by the Rod of Iron, human do not live twice. I love this thought (don't know 100 percent of I agree), I would love to see these modern day, arrogant liberals, who push all manner of evil via abortion on demand, homosexual marriage, transgender-FREAKISM, like Obama, AOC, and NY Mayor, Bill de Blasio have to live under Jesus'' 1000 year reign for the whole 1000 years !!
The Dead are raised in 1000 years. That's the biblical facts brother.
You can't throw in a scripture completely out of context like that one in Luke 9:60, that i about someone following Jesus during Jesus' lifetime. Those dead are yet to be judged. The Righteous were already Judged and Raptured to Heaven pre trib., these seen here on Rev. 20:4 are the Righteous Martyrs of the 70th week tribulation period, they get judged just after Jesus' Second Coming. The DEAD are Judged 1000 years later, the scripture shouts this truth out.
Now, as we look back at where this discussion originated, in 1 Cor. 15, we can clearly see this is about the CORRUPTION of ALL Human Beings bodies in general, in that our sin flesh is corrupted and can not be salvaged.
1 Cor. 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. 40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption;(Sin Flesh) it is raised in incorruption:(Spirit Man)
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory:(Means this is about ONLY those in Christ Jesus)it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
The whole chapters about the Dead in Christ not THE DEAD who will be raised 1000 years after Jesus reign on earth.
SO, WHEN ARE HE DEAD JUDGED? Rev. 20 tells us, its simple....AFTER the 1000 years.
Rev. 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
So, the Dead are raised AFTER the 1000 years, the Dead in Crhrst are raised BEFORE the 70th week trib.
Nope, the Martyrs of the 70th week AND all the Jewish Saints (the Bride of the Father) are raised AT THE VERY END, as Jesus (Man in Linen) told Daniel in Daniel chapter 12 would happen. No one who does during the 70th week goes to Heaven, they MUST WAIT until all of their brothers have been killed in like manner as they have according to Jesus in his 5th Seal Prophetic Uttering.
Yes there is, this just proves further why you are confused by the rest of the scriptures.
SURE...........
The rest of that post is not worth a rely in that is he same ole redundant verbiage.
The Dead are raised in 1000 years. That's the biblical facts brother.
You can't throw in a scripture completely out of context like that one in Luke 9:60, that i about someone following Jesus during Jesus' lifetime. Those dead are yet to be judged. The Righteous were already Judged and Raptured to Heaven pre trib., these seen here on Rev. 20:4 are the Righteous Martyrs of the 70th week tribulation period, they get judged just after Jesus' Second Coming. The DEAD are Judged 1000 years later, the scripture shouts this truth out.
Now, as we look back at where this discussion originated, in 1 Cor. 15, we can clearly see this is about the CORRUPTION of ALL Human Beings bodies in general, in that our sin flesh is corrupted and can not be salvaged.
1 Cor. 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. 40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption;(Sin Flesh) it is raised in incorruption:(Spirit Man)
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory:(Means this is about ONLY those in Christ Jesus)it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
The whole chapters about the Dead in Christ not THE DEAD who will be raised 1000 years after Jesus reign on earth.
SO, WHEN ARE HE DEAD JUDGED? Rev. 20 tells us, its simple....AFTER the 1000 years.
Rev. 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
So, the Dead are raised AFTER the 1000 years, the Dead in Crhrst are raised BEFORE the 70th week trib.
Nope, the Martyrs of the 70th week AND all the Jewish Saints (the Bride of the Father) are raised AT THE VERY END, as Jesus (Man in Linen) told Daniel in Daniel chapter 12 would happen. No one who does during the 70th week goes to Heaven, they MUST WAIT until all of their brothers have been killed in like manner as they have according to Jesus in his 5th Seal Prophetic Uttering.
Yes there is, this just proves further why you are confused by the rest of the scriptures.
SURE...........
The rest of that post is not worth a rely in that is he same ole redundant verbiage.
Oh, nonsense. You are refuted by Lazarusd and the rich man in Hades, so you punt and call it merely a parable. Jesus told a thief he would be with Jesus in Paradise that day. Go figure. Oh, right, you can't because you think all dead people are snoring until the resurrection.
And Jesus actually did that before the crucifixion.
I actually quoted 3 verses from Jesus. Don't you read posts? Or maybe just shoot from your hip or lip.
Go back and read what I already gave, since you didn't read my post yet.
Oh, how naive. Their bodies were destroyed in the fire that rained down on the cities. Good grief and pay attention to the passages.
And your flippant comment about S & G directly mock what Jesus said. I don't appreciate such behavior. So please cease.
Really? You think so? Please explain how ceasing to exist is any kind of uncomfortable condition.
Or, explain how it is consequential to cease to exist, which means no awareness of anything, no feelings, nothing.
Isn't that much better, in fact, than feeling guilt, shame, grief, sorrow, worry, pain, etc?
I'd take ceasing to exist any day over all these feelings.
Thanks for revealing such a shallow grasp of reality. In your warped world, capital punishment only means to cease to exist. Which would be MUCH BETTER, by far, than living in a cell for the rest of your life.
How in the world can't you see this?
Or, explain how it is consequential to cease to exist, which means no awareness of anything, no feelings, nothing.
Isn't that much better, in fact, than feeling guilt, shame, grief, sorrow, worry, pain, etc?
I'd take ceasing to exist any day over all these feelings.
Thanks for revealing such a shallow grasp of reality. In your warped world, capital punishment only means to cease to exist. Which would be MUCH BETTER, by far, than living in a cell for the rest of your life.
How in the world can't you see this?
What did Jesus say why He spoke n parables? Because the Disciples hearing understood but the world hearing would hear and still not understand. I think you just answered your own question of why you can't see something that I can and do see very easily. If the Holy Spirit can't make you see it, then me explaining it for the 100th time will more than likely do no good either, its a Spiritual thing.
lol. Thanks for a irrelevant opinion. Your views have been thoroughly refuted. You just are too blind to see it.
The verses you guys hide behind are being misunderstood. You've been given clear verses that refute your ideas, and you just dismiss them.
Just answer my question please about WHAT Jesus is saving people FROM, since dying apart from Christ has NO CONSEQUENCES.
Just a good night's sleep until the GWT judgment, and then nothingness. How is that a consequence, since there are no feelings or any kind of awareness in those conditions?
The verses you guys hide behind are being misunderstood. You've been given clear verses that refute your ideas, and you just dismiss them.
Just answer my question please about WHAT Jesus is saving people FROM, since dying apart from Christ has NO CONSEQUENCES.
Just a good night's sleep until the GWT judgment, and then nothingness. How is that a consequence, since there are no feelings or any kind of awareness in those conditions?