Does 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 Teach Jesus Will Return With Dead Saints Now With Him In Heaven?
- Thread starter Phoneman-777
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
When did I say they weren't?
I've always said the penalty for sin Jesus paid was death...the "immortal soul" crowd thinks the wages of sin is eternal torment because they think sinners are granted eternal life in flames instead of suffering death, which is the absence of life, not a continuation thereof.
If the wages of sin was eternal torment, the only way Jesus could pay those wages for us is if HE be eternally tormented.
I've always said the penalty for sin Jesus paid was death...the "immortal soul" crowd thinks the wages of sin is eternal torment because they think sinners are granted eternal life in flames instead of suffering death, which is the absence of life, not a continuation thereof.
If the wages of sin was eternal torment, the only way Jesus could pay those wages for us is if HE be eternally tormented.
-
1
- Show all
One doesn't end so a new can begin. Who you are when you die is who you will continue being as we go through the transition from seen to the unseen.
Gods plan continues on. Our lives continue on. WE, our distinct 'spirit' and/or 'soul' ,which ever word you use for the part of you that makes you you, as the thinker and feeler is carried forward.
Our works do follow us. Our works form our character. Following Gods laws now shape us. What was one a 'law' has become a personality trait as natural as breathing. We walk a little more holy. Another step up the ladder away from beastly nature and closer to 'perfect'. Even Christ was perfected. Christ, partaker of flesh and blood just like we are.
Our 'works' can cover a multitude of sin because every part of our beast nature overcome, are sins never committed (one less stripe on Christ?) our healing transfers to helping heal those we have hurt because they see we understand.
Christ Himself came down and did it all for us. Not 'for us' as in doing it so we didn't have to do it ourselves but for us as in showing us how it is done, and doing what we could not, on the cross. (NO, I don't believe that Christ will judge Himself a billion times over) Judgment day come and it isn't 'How well did He work within me' being judged but the "How much did I take advantage of Him leading and guiding" by praying to Him in life and study.
The closer we get to walking holy the more He sees our love. That is why every moment and test that comes our way is GOOD. YES, our sins are forgiven and we are under grace but we must remember GOD didn't change who He was and who He wants us to be. WE will be refined by fire. What does that tell HIM? If we are still mostly 'dross' then there will be little of us left and instead of being able to teach we will still be in need of teaching. Those who are studying and trying and working those laws to walk more holy ridding themselves of their own dross with the help of the Holy Spirit, when refined will have no dross and be weighty. Vessels of gold and honor down to vessels of wood and dishonor.
What we seem to not take into consideration is the Judgment coming. Think about what we are told. God says he will MORE THAN recompense us our tribulations. Have you ever asked WHY it is good for us to suffer these things besides the good it just does to our spirit?
THE OTHER SIDE OF JUDGMENT. That is where God judges the evil 'evidence' against a person. I don't know how to word it any better than it's almost a job we are doing for Him. Why would He take the church when the most evidence would be needed. It just makes no sense.
So what is the point of having those you created 'to give you pleasure' all sleeping on the job. How boring. Don't think God can handle all that company? Finally having returned and 'put to bed'? Isn't there a lot to learn still? Isn't there a day fast approaching in which we will be reigning and ruling with Him? Sorry, but sleeping just goes again everything I got from the OT also. God WANTS to be our King, Lord, Creator, Father, Provider etc.
Gods plan continues on. Our lives continue on. WE, our distinct 'spirit' and/or 'soul' ,which ever word you use for the part of you that makes you you, as the thinker and feeler is carried forward.
Our works do follow us. Our works form our character. Following Gods laws now shape us. What was one a 'law' has become a personality trait as natural as breathing. We walk a little more holy. Another step up the ladder away from beastly nature and closer to 'perfect'. Even Christ was perfected. Christ, partaker of flesh and blood just like we are.
Our 'works' can cover a multitude of sin because every part of our beast nature overcome, are sins never committed (one less stripe on Christ?) our healing transfers to helping heal those we have hurt because they see we understand.
Christ Himself came down and did it all for us. Not 'for us' as in doing it so we didn't have to do it ourselves but for us as in showing us how it is done, and doing what we could not, on the cross. (NO, I don't believe that Christ will judge Himself a billion times over) Judgment day come and it isn't 'How well did He work within me' being judged but the "How much did I take advantage of Him leading and guiding" by praying to Him in life and study.
The closer we get to walking holy the more He sees our love. That is why every moment and test that comes our way is GOOD. YES, our sins are forgiven and we are under grace but we must remember GOD didn't change who He was and who He wants us to be. WE will be refined by fire. What does that tell HIM? If we are still mostly 'dross' then there will be little of us left and instead of being able to teach we will still be in need of teaching. Those who are studying and trying and working those laws to walk more holy ridding themselves of their own dross with the help of the Holy Spirit, when refined will have no dross and be weighty. Vessels of gold and honor down to vessels of wood and dishonor.
What we seem to not take into consideration is the Judgment coming. Think about what we are told. God says he will MORE THAN recompense us our tribulations. Have you ever asked WHY it is good for us to suffer these things besides the good it just does to our spirit?
THE OTHER SIDE OF JUDGMENT. That is where God judges the evil 'evidence' against a person. I don't know how to word it any better than it's almost a job we are doing for Him. Why would He take the church when the most evidence would be needed. It just makes no sense.
So what is the point of having those you created 'to give you pleasure' all sleeping on the job. How boring. Don't think God can handle all that company? Finally having returned and 'put to bed'? Isn't there a lot to learn still? Isn't there a day fast approaching in which we will be reigning and ruling with Him? Sorry, but sleeping just goes again everything I got from the OT also. God WANTS to be our King, Lord, Creator, Father, Provider etc.
I agree with that which someone said earlier: that not every word in Revelation is symbolism. For instance, I believe there is a literal Tree of Life, River of Life, etc. John's encounter here with the angel isn't fantastical imagery like a 7 headed beast coming out of the sea, souls under the altar, or a two horned lamb-like beast - it's obviously interaction between John and the messenger angel whilst John was in vision receiving the revelation from the angel...like when we see the angel and Scrooge talking to each other in "It's A Wonderful Life".
YOU SEE??? HERE LIES THE PROBLEM.
Genesis 2:7 KJV clearly defines what is the Spirit, Body, and Soul, but no one wants to accept it because it destroys their flawed concepts of the afterlife.
Spirit - God's "life giving principle" that animates the inanimate.
Body - inanimate dust scooped together by God
Soul - the result of combining God's Spirit with the Body
The Body clearly differentiates between the two: says the Soul and Spirit can be divided; says Jesus' Soul went down but His Spirit went up; says God desires our Spirit and Body and whole Soul would be preserved just as one might tell workers to "paint the kitchen, the bathrooms, the whole entire house".
Genesis 2:7 KJV clearly defines what is the Spirit, Body, and Soul, but no one wants to accept it because it destroys their flawed concepts of the afterlife.
Spirit - God's "life giving principle" that animates the inanimate.
Body - inanimate dust scooped together by God
Soul - the result of combining God's Spirit with the Body
The Body clearly differentiates between the two: says the Soul and Spirit can be divided; says Jesus' Soul went down but His Spirit went up; says God desires our Spirit and Body and whole Soul would be preserved just as one might tell workers to "paint the kitchen, the bathrooms, the whole entire house".
It's you who've done that, friend. God is the God of the "living" meaning those who are sleeping but will awake to heavenly glory and not suffer the Second Death. They are not in heaven now because "the dead know not anything" and "do not praise the Lord" which they'd be doing if they were not dead.
Why do you think Solomon is stupid?
Why do you think Solomon is stupid?
Ok, if sinners go straight to sleep and your soul is dead (no consciousness at all) then are resurrected on judgment day and cast into the Lake of fire....and annihilated.
Then there would be no hell, and that is in direct opposition to scripture.
We can like it or not but there is a hell and those who are not saved when they die, will face it.
Then there would be no hell, and that is in direct opposition to scripture.
We can like it or not but there is a hell and those who are not saved when they die, will face it.
Yes, a satanic witch forced Samuel to come up, right?
One would think the "immortal soul" crowd would ask themselves, "If silly Solomon was wrong and that Samuel was actually in heaven knowing things and doing things and was able to have things to do with all that stuff down there under the sun (Ecclesiastes 9:5-10 KJV)...why the flip did he "come up from below" instead of "coming down from heaven???"
Because what came up from below was demonic, that's why.
One would think the "immortal soul" crowd would ask themselves, "If silly Solomon was wrong and that Samuel was actually in heaven knowing things and doing things and was able to have things to do with all that stuff down there under the sun (Ecclesiastes 9:5-10 KJV)...why the flip did he "come up from below" instead of "coming down from heaven???"
Because what came up from below was demonic, that's why.
Who is laughing at Scripture??? i am laughing at the clear error in the FACE and LIGHT of the very WORD's of CHRIST.
If, you cannot see that the LORD says, condemnation is current and has ALREADY been handed down by God, then you have a problem that cause you to override/disbelieve the clear Scripture/Words of Christ in your mind.
A.) Whoever believes in Him is not condemned,
B.) but whoever does not believe has already been condemned,
C.) because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
D.) And this is the verdict: The Light has come into the world, but men loved the darkness rather than the Light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come into the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever practices the truth comes into the Light, so that it may be seen clearly that what he has done has been accomplished in God.”
God has ALREADY handed down Judgment BEFORE a man leaves this earth.
HIS Judgment stands and is immediately administered upon death as we see in Luke ch16 and in Revelation.
HIS Judgment will be FINALIZED at the Resurrection of the Just = SALVATION = Immortal Glorified Bodies made into His Likeness
and
at the Resurrection of the wicked = Lake of Fire = Second Death
If, you cannot see that the LORD says, condemnation is current and has ALREADY been handed down by God, then you have a problem that cause you to override/disbelieve the clear Scripture/Words of Christ in your mind.
A.) Whoever believes in Him is not condemned,
B.) but whoever does not believe has already been condemned,
C.) because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
D.) And this is the verdict: The Light has come into the world, but men loved the darkness rather than the Light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come into the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever practices the truth comes into the Light, so that it may be seen clearly that what he has done has been accomplished in God.”
God has ALREADY handed down Judgment BEFORE a man leaves this earth.
HIS Judgment stands and is immediately administered upon death as we see in Luke ch16 and in Revelation.
HIS Judgment will be FINALIZED at the Resurrection of the Just = SALVATION = Immortal Glorified Bodies made into His Likeness
and
at the Resurrection of the wicked = Lake of Fire = Second Death
-
1
- Show all
I said:
These 2 theories create a huge unanswered question for those who push them.
If the soul sleeps at physical death, until the resurrection, either for the saved or for the unsaved, and the souls of unbelievers will be annihilated at the GWT judgment, then please answer this question.
Why did Jesus come to earth and die for everyone? And what, specifically, does He save anyone FROM? John 1:29 and 4:42 and 1 Tim 4:10 and 1 John 4:14 call Jesus the Savior of the world.
So, what does He save us FROM?
Your answer totally misses my point. I don't see ANY kind of consequence for unbelievers in annihilation theory. Or soul sleep.
I said:
"Because, here's the deal, if your 2 theories are accurate.
Believers will eventually wake up and go to heaven."
My point is that at physical death, the believer (and unbeliever who also has a soul) will sleep UNTIL the resurrection of either. So there is no reason to use the words "sometimes" as if it could be an on and off kind of deal. At physical death, the soul sleeps UNTIL resurrection. All sleep all the time, UNTIL the resurrection. Not "sometimes".
I said:
"Unbelievers can live like hell, then go to sleep at death (no consequences for their behavior) and be resurrected to appear at the GWT judgment. And then be cast into the lake of fire and cease to exist. Again, no consequences for their behavior."
Wow. At least you are accurate. In spite of the account of Lazarus and a rich man. But you missed the point about the fact that your view of annihilation means NO CONSEQUENCES for unbelievers EVER, unless you count being cast into the lake of fire and existing only for a few seconds as a consequence.
I never even suggested any kind of "pre-judgment punishment" idea. I do believe that the compartment in Hades (Sheol) called Torments which is a holding tank for the unbelievers will not be pleasant.
The place the Bible calls Torments wasn't my idea. Go tell God He is unfair. Please.
In the annihilation theory, that's no big deal. Where are the consequences? None. All that the unbeliever experiences is a resurrection of the body (wakes from sleep) and is told they were a bad boy. Then they cease to exist.
Like I pointed out, unbelievers can live like hell and face NO CONSEQUENCES.
So what? Your so-called "judgment/damnation" is only ceasing to exist. Where is the consequence of that?
Rather, it is YOUR premise that is a false assumption. I never said people "go to immediate punishment" after they die.
I DID say, because the BIBLE DOES say, that unbelievers go to hell (Hades, Sheol) at physical death and await the GWT judgment.
To this I would say, big deal. So what?
According to annihilation theory, "death" is nothing more than ceasing to exist. So being put to death means no more suffering of any kind.
Not a bad deal for those who live like hell and have NO CONSEQUENCES for it.
Again, so what? What's the big deal?
You need to face this aspect of your theory. If souls sleep after physical death, and at the GWT judgment, the "damnation" is merely ceasing to exist, what's the issue?
All your theory does is encourage people to live like hell because there WON'T BE ANY CONSEQUENCES for their behavior.
These 2 theories create a huge unanswered question for those who push them.
If the soul sleeps at physical death, until the resurrection, either for the saved or for the unsaved, and the souls of unbelievers will be annihilated at the GWT judgment, then please answer this question.
Why did Jesus come to earth and die for everyone? And what, specifically, does He save anyone FROM? John 1:29 and 4:42 and 1 Tim 4:10 and 1 John 4:14 call Jesus the Savior of the world.
So, what does He save us FROM?
Your answer totally misses my point. I don't see ANY kind of consequence for unbelievers in annihilation theory. Or soul sleep.
I said:
"Because, here's the deal, if your 2 theories are accurate.
Believers will eventually wake up and go to heaven."
My point is that at physical death, the believer (and unbeliever who also has a soul) will sleep UNTIL the resurrection of either. So there is no reason to use the words "sometimes" as if it could be an on and off kind of deal. At physical death, the soul sleeps UNTIL resurrection. All sleep all the time, UNTIL the resurrection. Not "sometimes".
I said:
"Unbelievers can live like hell, then go to sleep at death (no consequences for their behavior) and be resurrected to appear at the GWT judgment. And then be cast into the lake of fire and cease to exist. Again, no consequences for their behavior."
Wow. At least you are accurate. In spite of the account of Lazarus and a rich man. But you missed the point about the fact that your view of annihilation means NO CONSEQUENCES for unbelievers EVER, unless you count being cast into the lake of fire and existing only for a few seconds as a consequence.
I never even suggested any kind of "pre-judgment punishment" idea. I do believe that the compartment in Hades (Sheol) called Torments which is a holding tank for the unbelievers will not be pleasant.
The place the Bible calls Torments wasn't my idea. Go tell God He is unfair. Please.
In the annihilation theory, that's no big deal. Where are the consequences? None. All that the unbeliever experiences is a resurrection of the body (wakes from sleep) and is told they were a bad boy. Then they cease to exist.
Like I pointed out, unbelievers can live like hell and face NO CONSEQUENCES.
So what? Your so-called "judgment/damnation" is only ceasing to exist. Where is the consequence of that?
Rather, it is YOUR premise that is a false assumption. I never said people "go to immediate punishment" after they die.
I DID say, because the BIBLE DOES say, that unbelievers go to hell (Hades, Sheol) at physical death and await the GWT judgment.
To this I would say, big deal. So what?
According to annihilation theory, "death" is nothing more than ceasing to exist. So being put to death means no more suffering of any kind.
Not a bad deal for those who live like hell and have NO CONSEQUENCES for it.
Again, so what? What's the big deal?
You need to face this aspect of your theory. If souls sleep after physical death, and at the GWT judgment, the "damnation" is merely ceasing to exist, what's the issue?
All your theory does is encourage people to live like hell because there WON'T BE ANY CONSEQUENCES for their behavior.
FreeGrace2 said:
Preposterous!! The Bible SAYS it was Samuel talking. And he was talking to King Saul, who was still living. Samuel told Saul that he would join him the next day. If there is such a thing as soul sleep, was Samuel inviting him to a slumber party, like Jesus must have done with the thief on the cross? Where do you get your material for all this made up stuff?
So then, you ARE claiming that the writer of 2 Samuel was LYING. Or at least making up stuff. He directly names Samuel as the one who appears to Saul. Deal with the truth.
Sure. Make up your own stuff. If the appearance wasnt literally Samuel, then the Bible is purposely misleading all the people who easily understand that God did have Samuel appear to Saul.
Your excuses are pitiful.
Preposterous!! The Bible SAYS it was Samuel talking. And he was talking to King Saul, who was still living. Samuel told Saul that he would join him the next day. If there is such a thing as soul sleep, was Samuel inviting him to a slumber party, like Jesus must have done with the thief on the cross? Where do you get your material for all this made up stuff?
So then, you ARE claiming that the writer of 2 Samuel was LYING. Or at least making up stuff. He directly names Samuel as the one who appears to Saul. Deal with the truth.
Sure. Make up your own stuff. If the appearance wasnt literally Samuel, then the Bible is purposely misleading all the people who easily understand that God did have Samuel appear to Saul.
Your excuses are pitiful.
What I see in the New Testament is that hell is used to describe “Gehenna” which was a place called the valley of Hinnom. I guess Gehenna was a garbage dump in Jerusalem where they burned garbage night and day, but not forever since they aren’t still burning garbage there in the present day.
Hell is sometimes translated from hades which is a place of departed souls and literally means the grave.
Hell is sometimes translated from hades which is a place of departed souls and literally means the grave.
-
1
-
1
- Show all
FreeGrace2 said:
What this means is they refused to receive the free gift of eternal life. Therefore, they send themselves to the lake of fire. And will have an eternity to think about it..
The Bible teaches that.
Why don't you deal with post 424 and the horrible teaching that soul sleep and annihilation theory leads to?
What this means is they refused to receive the free gift of eternal life. Therefore, they send themselves to the lake of fire. And will have an eternity to think about it..
Solomon:
"The living know that they shall die but the dead know not anything."
FreeGrace2:
"The living know that they shall die, know they are dead after they die, and will forever contemplate their bad choices."
"The living know that they shall die but the dead know not anything."
FreeGrace2:
"The living know that they shall die, know they are dead after they die, and will forever contemplate their bad choices."
Why don't you deal with post 424 and the horrible teaching that soul sleep and annihilation theory leads to?
Probably this has been explained elsewhere, but it is a host of angels not believers who are coming on the clouds--also the clouds translates to 'princes'' a name also used for angels-note that when thousands upon thousands of birds are flying together they are called a cloud of birds. (see video below)
"Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen. "--Revelations 1:7
Holy Ones and Saints means the same thing. The same way sheol, hades, and hell mean the grave.
Proof text below that Christ is coming with ANGELS, not believers. Understand that it doesn't make sense to say Christ comes with believers since the whole point of His coming is to GATHER THEM! God is bringing with Christ the believers--another way to say it is Christ is bringing with Him the believers from earth to heaven. They are NOT coming down with him from heaven.
" For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him (Christ). "--1st Thessalonians 4:14
For further clarity. "He is bringing his wife to the event", "He is bringing his child to the park.", "He is bringing his friend along with him to the dinner."
Furthermore, there is so much false doctrine that must be believed if you take that ONE verse in that way--it's like Russian nesting eggs.
"Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about them: “See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones "--Jude 1:14
"For the Son of Man will come in His Father's glory with His angels, and then He will repay each one according to what he has done "--Matthew 15:27
Again, it is in the isolation of verses that all false doctrine originates--we need to see the 'big picture' of scripture and test scripture against scripture.
Here is a small glimpse of what it will look like when Christ returns with His multitude of witnesses (again angels not believers)
"Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen. "--Revelations 1:7
Holy Ones and Saints means the same thing. The same way sheol, hades, and hell mean the grave.
Proof text below that Christ is coming with ANGELS, not believers. Understand that it doesn't make sense to say Christ comes with believers since the whole point of His coming is to GATHER THEM! God is bringing with Christ the believers--another way to say it is Christ is bringing with Him the believers from earth to heaven. They are NOT coming down with him from heaven.
" For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him (Christ). "--1st Thessalonians 4:14
For further clarity. "He is bringing his wife to the event", "He is bringing his child to the park.", "He is bringing his friend along with him to the dinner."
Furthermore, there is so much false doctrine that must be believed if you take that ONE verse in that way--it's like Russian nesting eggs.
"Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about them: “See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones "--Jude 1:14
"For the Son of Man will come in His Father's glory with His angels, and then He will repay each one according to what he has done "--Matthew 15:27
Again, it is in the isolation of verses that all false doctrine originates--we need to see the 'big picture' of scripture and test scripture against scripture.
Here is a small glimpse of what it will look like when Christ returns with His multitude of witnesses (again angels not believers)