Does 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 Teach Jesus Will Return With Dead Saints Now With Him In Heaven?

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Jan 31, 2021
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posthuman said:

you might want to check your sources.

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone,
where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
(Revelation 20:10)
Here we go again isolating verses and using the symbolic language of Revelation, rather than testing scripture against scripture.
This retort has gotta be one of THE MOST outlandish comments ever.

Refuted by clear and direct verses and they have to punt and hide behind the defense of symbolism. By that notion, one can explain anything anyway they want to.

But you aren't getting away with anything. Your warped doctrines are obviously unbiblical.

If a person died unsaved, all that happens is they go nighty-night until a brief resurrection, for the GWT, and then there is nothingness.

And these guys/girls think that is a punishment. To NEVER suffer at all, either physically, mentally, emotionally, or anything.

Real bright, right?
 
Dec 15, 2021
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I don't think I need to read further.
You said
, "Satan is coming. Satan is coming to deceive. Satan is coming to OVERCOME the world."


He's here NOW and he's been here since he was thrown out of heaven--In fact I see his dirty little fingerprints all over this forum. His deception and lies have infiltrated the church even before Paul was dead and buried.

And it is a lie that SATAN is coming to OVERCOME the world as you say. Clearly he is NOT--Christ is the VICTOR not Satan.

"Be of good cheer for I (Christ) have overcome the world."--Christ defeated that old serpent at the cross. Is Satan coming with one last hurrah before he is destroyed--yes at the Tribulation, but he has not and nor will ever OVERCOME the world.


FIRST Satan as the over comer
Greek
And I looked and behold a horse white, and the [one] sitting on it having a bow 5115 and was given to him a crown and he forth overcoming 3528 and that he might conquer 3528

5115. toxon
Strong's Concordance
toxon: a bow
Original Word: τόξον, ου, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: toxon
Phonetic Spelling: (tox'-on)
Definition: a bow
Usage: a bow.
NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
a prim. word
Definition
a bow
NASB Translation
bow (1).
Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 5115: τόξον
τόξον, τόξου, τό, from Homer down, the Sept. often for קֶשֶׁת, a bow: Revelation 6:2.
Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
a bow.
From the base of tikto; a bow (apparently as the simplest fabric) -- bow.


3528. nikaó
Strong's Concordance
nikaó: to conquer, prevail
Original Word: νικάω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: nikaó
Phonetic Spelling: (nik-ah'-o)
Definition: to conquer, prevail
Usage: I conquer, am victorious, overcome, prevail, subdue.
HELPS Word-studies
3528 nikáō(from 3529 /níkē, "victory") – properly, conquer (overcome); " 'to carry off the victory, come off victorious.' The verb implies a battle" (K. Wuest).
conquer, overcome, prevail

From nike; to subdue (literally or figuratively) -- conquer, overcome, prevail, get the victory.


WE know for sure THESE THINGS are not taking place in secret. The whole world will worship after him. THE WHOLE WORLD. Satan being here will not be questioned by anyone. And what did Jesus tell us FIRST? DO NOT BE DECEIVED BY ANY MAN aka Satan comes first.

For those without the gospel armor 'WHO IS HE REALLY'. will be the question. He claims to be God, he performs miracles like God, we are hearing 'Peace and Safety'... He is so good time had to be shortened...

He imitates everything about Christ. NOTICE he is GIVEN a crown, CHRIST doesn't need to be GIVEN a CROWN. And the 'bow' is a CHEAP FABIC. Does that sound like CHRIST? No.


The evil INFLUENCE of Satan is here. The mystery of iniquity doeth already work. What do the 2 churches Christ approved have in common? They know about the Synagogue of Satan. The multiple false prophets running rampant teaching false doctrines.

WHEN SATAN and his angels are kicked out of heaven WHAT will Satan be DOING? WHAT ISN''T TAKING place that we are told WILL BE TAKING PLACE?

When Satan is here upon the earth WE WILL ALL KNOW IT. It wont be an 'is he here or isn't he' it will be an IN YOUR FACE HERE I AM CHECK THIS OUT KIND OF SATAN HERE.


2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.


WHOSE IS COMING ACCORDING TO [THE] WORKING OF SATAN IN EVERY POWER 1141 AND IN SIGNS 4592 AND IN WONDERS 5059 OF FALSEHOOD


1411. dunamis
Strong's Concordance
dunamis: (miraculous) power, might, strength
Original Word: δύναμις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: dunamis
Phonetic Spelling: (doo'-nam-is)
Definition: (miraculous) power, might, strength
Usage: (a) physical power, force, might, ability, efficacy, energy, meaning (b) plur: powerful deeds, deeds showing (physical) power, marvelous works.
HELPS Word-studies
1411 dýnamis (from 1410 /dýnamai, "able, having ability") – properly, "ability to perform" (L-N); for the believer, power to achieve by applying the Lord's inherent abilities. "Power through God's ability" (1411 /dýnamis) is needed in every scene of life to really grow in sanctification and prepare for heaven (glorification). 1411 (dýnamis) is a very important term, used 120 times in the NT.

4592. sémeion
Strong's Concordance
sémeion: a sign
Original Word: σημεῖον, ου, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: sémeion
Phonetic Spelling: (say-mi'-on)
Definition: a sign
Usage: a sign, miracle, indication, mark, token.
HELPS Word-studies
4592 sēmeíon – a sign (typically miraculous), given especially to confirm, corroborate or authenticate. 4592 /sēmeíon ("sign") then emphasizes the end-purpose which exalts the one giving it. Accordingly, it is used dozens of times in the NT for what authenticates the Lord and His eternal purpose, especially by doing what mere man can not replicate of take credit for.

5059. teras
Strong's Concordance
teras: a wonder, marvel
Original Word: τέρας, ατος, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: teras
Phonetic Spelling: (ter'-as)
Definition: a wonder, marvel
Usage: a wonder, portent, marvel.
HELPS Word-studies
5059 téras – a miraculous wonder, done to elicit a reaction from onlookers; an extraordinary event with its supernatural effect left on all witnessing it, i.e. a portent from heaven to earth.


IF SOMEONE has been doing all these things please tell me who and where he can be found.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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This thread is just getting more weird and weird.

Why some people think that ceasing to exist, meaning there is nothingness, is some kind of punishment really stretches the imagination.

But they're so clueless. That not existing, which means NO negative feelings, no pain, etc is a punishment is ridiculous beyond belief.

These people have been given very clear Scripture, all of which thoroughly refutes their notions. Yet, they simply dismiss them as parables, or symbolic, etc.

These are just excuses because they CANNOT defend their position in the light of TRUTH.

By claiming a passage to be a parable, one can claim it means whatever they want it to mean. Jesus HAD TO explain His parables to His own disciples because EVEN they didn't understand them.
 

Laura798

Well-known member
Jun 6, 2020
1,716
593
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posthuman said:

you might want to check your sources.

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone,
where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
(Revelation 20:10)

This retort has gotta be one of THE MOST outlandish comments ever.

Refuted by clear and direct verses and they have to punt and hide behind the defense of symbolism. By that notion, one can explain anything anyway they want to.

But you aren't getting away with anything. Your warped doctrines are obviously unbiblical.

If a person died unsaved, all that happens is they go nighty-night until a brief resurrection, for the GWT, and then there is nothingness.

And these guys/girls think that is a punishment. To NEVER suffer at all, either physically, mentally, emotionally, or anything.

Real bright, right?
Youre like those monkeys they trap by sticking fruit in a narrow mouthed gourd— they refuse to let go of the fruit and are trapped when by simply loosening their grip would have their freedom.

You are the one who is lost and deluded—you would rather hold onto your false doctrine than the truth that is within easy reach if only you would seek it.
You said, "Refuted by clear and direct verses” referring to yourselves? Actually it is the other way around.

“"If you were blind, you would have no guilt; but now that you say, 'We see,' your guilt remains.”—John 9:41
 

Laura798

Well-known member
Jun 6, 2020
1,716
593
113
FIRST Satan as the over comer
Greek
And I looked and behold a horse white, and the [one] sitting on it having a bow 5115 and was given to him a crown and he forth overcoming 3528 and that he might conquer 3528

5115. toxon
Strong's Concordance
toxon: a bow
Original Word: τόξον, ου, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: toxon
Phonetic Spelling: (tox'-on)
Definition: a bow
Usage: a bow.
NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
a prim. word
Definition
a bow
NASB Translation
bow (1).
Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 5115: τόξον
τόξον, τόξου, τό, from Homer down, the Sept. often for קֶשֶׁת, a bow: Revelation 6:2.
Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
a bow.
From the base of tikto; a bow (apparently as the simplest fabric) -- bow.


3528. nikaó
Strong's Concordance
nikaó: to conquer, prevail
Original Word: νικάω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: nikaó
Phonetic Spelling: (nik-ah'-o)
Definition: to conquer, prevail
Usage: I conquer, am victorious, overcome, prevail, subdue.
HELPS Word-studies
3528 nikáō(from 3529 /níkē, "victory") – properly, conquer (overcome); " 'to carry off the victory, come off victorious.' The verb implies a battle" (K. Wuest).
conquer, overcome, prevail

From nike; to subdue (literally or figuratively) -- conquer, overcome, prevail, get the victory.


WE know for sure THESE THINGS are not taking place in secret. The whole world will worship after him. THE WHOLE WORLD. Satan being here will not be questioned by anyone. And what did Jesus tell us FIRST? DO NOT BE DECEIVED BY ANY MAN aka Satan comes first.

For those without the gospel armor 'WHO IS HE REALLY'. will be the question. He claims to be God, he performs miracles like God, we are hearing 'Peace and Safety'... He is so good time had to be shortened...

He imitates everything about Christ. NOTICE he is GIVEN a crown, CHRIST doesn't need to be GIVEN a CROWN. And the 'bow' is a CHEAP FABIC. Does that sound like CHRIST? No.


The evil INFLUENCE of Satan is here. The mystery of iniquity doeth already work. What do the 2 churches Christ approved have in common? They know about the Synagogue of Satan. The multiple false prophets running rampant teaching false doctrines.

WHEN SATAN and his angels are kicked out of heaven WHAT will Satan be DOING? WHAT ISN''T TAKING place that we are told WILL BE TAKING PLACE?

When Satan is here upon the earth WE WILL ALL KNOW IT. It wont be an 'is he here or isn't he' it will be an IN YOUR FACE HERE I AM CHECK THIS OUT KIND OF SATAN HERE.


2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.


WHOSE IS COMING ACCORDING TO [THE] WORKING OF SATAN IN EVERY POWER 1141 AND IN SIGNS 4592 AND IN WONDERS 5059 OF FALSEHOOD


1411. dunamis
Strong's Concordance
dunamis: (miraculous) power, might, strength
Original Word: δύναμις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: dunamis
Phonetic Spelling: (doo'-nam-is)
Definition: (miraculous) power, might, strength
Usage: (a) physical power, force, might, ability, efficacy, energy, meaning (b) plur: powerful deeds, deeds showing (physical) power, marvelous works.
HELPS Word-studies
1411 dýnamis (from 1410 /dýnamai, "able, having ability") – properly, "ability to perform" (L-N); for the believer, power to achieve by applying the Lord's inherent abilities. "Power through God's ability" (1411 /dýnamis) is needed in every scene of life to really grow in sanctification and prepare for heaven (glorification). 1411 (dýnamis) is a very important term, used 120 times in the NT.

4592. sémeion
Strong's Concordance
sémeion: a sign
Original Word: σημεῖον, ου, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: sémeion
Phonetic Spelling: (say-mi'-on)
Definition: a sign
Usage: a sign, miracle, indication, mark, token.
HELPS Word-studies
4592 sēmeíon – a sign (typically miraculous), given especially to confirm, corroborate or authenticate. 4592 /sēmeíon ("sign") then emphasizes the end-purpose which exalts the one giving it. Accordingly, it is used dozens of times in the NT for what authenticates the Lord and His eternal purpose, especially by doing what mere man can not replicate of take credit for.

5059. teras
Strong's Concordance
teras: a wonder, marvel
Original Word: τέρας, ατος, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: teras
Phonetic Spelling: (ter'-as)
Definition: a wonder, marvel
Usage: a wonder, portent, marvel.
HELPS Word-studies
5059 téras – a miraculous wonder, done to elicit a reaction from onlookers; an extraordinary event with its supernatural effect left on all witnessing it, i.e. a portent from heaven to earth.


IF SOMEONE has been doing all these things please tell me who and where he can be found.
Me thinks he protests too much…
 

Laura798

Well-known member
Jun 6, 2020
1,716
593
113
This thread is just getting more weird and weird.

Why some people think that ceasing to exist, meaning there is nothingness, is some kind of punishment really stretches the imagination.

But they're so clueless. That not existing, which means NO negative feelings, no pain, etc is a punishment is ridiculous beyond belief.

These people have been given very clear Scripture, all of which thoroughly refutes their notions. Yet, they simply dismiss them as parables, or symbolic, etc.

These are just excuses because they CANNOT defend their position in the light of TRUTH.

By claiming a passage to be a parable, one can claim it means whatever they want it to mean. Jesus HAD TO explain His parables to His own disciples because EVEN they didn't understand them.

Parable like the rich man and Lazarus? Which is one of a grouping of parables?

“Jesus spoke all these things to the crowd in parables; he did not say anything to them without using a parable.”-Matthew 13:34

Weve been more than clear— you just refuse to see it. And weird? That is exactly how i perceive most of you who believe in the immortality of the soul — and who blasphemously think you can go directly to heaven without your wedding clothes/ immortal bodies, without being escorted by the bridegroom— Christ and without having to face the Jugdment— this has ALL been refuted with scripture which you willfully chose to ignore. This false teaching btw is believed by almost all people who believe in ‘a’ god, but not the one true God.
However they have ignorance and lack of bible knowledge for their excuse.
 

Diakonos

Well-known member
Jan 19, 2019
1,377
432
83
30
Anacortes, WA
Too bad is doesn't say "absent from the body "equals" present with the Lord, right? Westcott and Hort schemed on how they would change a 'little word here and there" and those stupid Protestants wouldn't even know their Bible had been changed.
The “=“ sign means “is” in English. I could write out the entire sentence and the meaning would be the same.
The point is: to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. That’s why Paul said he preferred that option. He would rather be with the Lord, even if it meant physical death.
 
Dec 15, 2021
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The living who did not take the Mark of the Beast, and the newborn kids who become adults, and gave children themselves etc. etc. I
The 'living' who did not take the mark of the beast are the 'alive and remaining' who are changed in the twinkling of an eye an are brought together with the brethren that have returned with Christ.

NO MORE Earthy FLESH. Christ and the angels have arrived. Heaven is where God is and so On earth as it is in heaven is now truly on earth.

ALL the dead have risen and all the alive and remaining have been changed..(like the angels in heaven no taking or giving in marriage, hence no children). The newborns and children and whosoever's either die and resurrect when Christ returns or are alive and remaining and changed. There are no others. Saved or not those are the choices.

What does Scripture tell us happens to those with the mark of the beast?
 
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What did Jesus say why He spoke n parables? Because the Disciples hearing understood but the world hearing would hear and still not understand. I think you just answered your own question of why you can't see something that I can and do see very easily. If the Holy Spirit can't make you see it, then me explaining it for the 100th time will more than likely do no good either, its a Spiritual thing.
Always comes to the same reply. If it could be done it would be done and it would be the first time, and we would not still be asking at the 100th. Go back and find where you ever gave me Scripture of GOD saying


'USE the feast days of Israel to determine the order of end time events'. What is it a verse or two? Just give me a key word or two and I will find it myself. Maybe you just THINK you have but you really haven't.


PLEASE IF ANYONE KNOWS WHAT POST(S) HE IS REFERRING TO (ANYONE OF THE 100 WOULD DO) please let me know so I can go back and read them.
 
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Youre like those monkeys they trap by sticking fruit in a narrow mouthed gourd— they refuse to let go of the fruit and are trapped when by simply loosening their grip would have their freedom.
Your posts just keep making less sense and less sense.

You are the one who is lost and deluded—you would rather hold onto your false doctrine than the truth that is within easy reach if only you would seek it.
Such garbage.

You said, "Refuted by clear and direct verses” referring to yourselves? Actually it is the other way around.
Deluded people think that way.

Please explain why Jesus told a theif that he would be with Jesus on THAT same day in Paradise. And yet you think dead people are slumbering in their graves. Is this just another parable?

How come you won't answer my question about WHAT Jesus saves us FROM? Why not?

How is ceasing to exist, meaning NO worry, no guilt, no shame, no pain, no nothing, a punishment? Can you explain that?

Or are you just going to keep on with this kind of post that is only a reflection of your inner self?
 

Laura798

Well-known member
Jun 6, 2020
1,716
593
113
This thread is just getting more weird and weird.

Why some people think that ceasing to exist, meaning there is nothingness, is some kind of punishment really stretches the imagination.

But they're so clueless. That not existing, which means NO negative feelings, no pain, etc is a punishment is ridiculous beyond belief.

These people have been given very clear Scripture, all of which thoroughly refutes their notions. Yet, they simply dismiss them as parables, or symbolic, etc.

These are just excuses because they CANNOT defend their position in the light of TRUTH.

By claiming a passage to be a parable, one can claim it means whatever they want it to mean. Jesus HAD TO explain His parables to His own disciples because EVEN they didn't understand them.
You just don't get it--the punishment is they are missing out on living ETERNALLY with God in paradise where there is NO MORE SUFFERING--as I said before you wouldnt think it was a big deal if you were offered a billion dollar lotto ticket and refused to take it and then find out later it was TRUE--that you really wouldve had a billion dollars? Are you serious?

And believing in eternal conscious torment flies in the face of the whole message of the gospel--of who God is and the message of the redemption--it completely negates John 3:16: "“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” or Romans 6:23 "23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in[a] Christ Jesus our Lord. "

Read Romans. Over and over and over again it says the punishment for sin is DEATH--the whole bible says that, but you must cling to your few paltry figurative verses in Revelation--you would rather equate our loving and just God with Satan himself.


And needless to say you must believe Christ DID NOT pay the penalty or else that He is or will also be in eternal conscious torment if THAT is the punishment for sin and NOT death.

There will be NO MORE SORROW, NO MORE TEARS--I guess you don't believe that verse either.
 
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The Dead are raised in 1000 years. That's the biblical facts brother.

How do THE DEAD presently 'come to life'?

They hear the words of God and come to FAITH.

What do PRIESTS DO? The teach the words of God so the DEAD may come to life. REMEMBER THE DEAD BONES? LIFE IS BROUGHT TO THEM THROUGH LEARNING GODS WORDS.

THE RESURRECTED 'DEAD' ARE 'LIVING' AND LEARNING BUT NOT YET 'MADE ALIVE IN CHRIST' NOT YET RECEIVING THEIR IMMORTALITY BECAUSE

THEY HAVE TO BE TESTED WHEN SATAN IS RELEASED. THEY WEREN'T A PART OF THE FIRST RESURRECTION BECAUSE THAT IS TO LIFE. THEY HAVE TO WAIT UNTIL THE SECOND ONE WHICH ONLY COMES ON JUDGMENT DAY. SO EVEN THOUGH THEY MAY COME TO FAITH DURING THE FIRST YEAR OF THE THOUSAND YEARS, THEY STILL CAN'T RECEIVE THEIR IMMORTALITY UNTIL AFTER SATAN IS LOOSED AND THEY ARE TESTED AND THEY PASS.

AND THE DEAD
DID NOT 'LIVE'
did not 'RECEIVE IMMORTALITY'
did not get to switch sides,

until the very end and that was only if that is what judgment came upon them. There are no 'judgment' days inbetween. No 'resurrection days in the middle. Remember what happens when Satan is released a short time? WHO DO you believe follows after him?
 
Jan 31, 2021
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Parable like the rich man and Lazarus? Which is one of a grouping of parables?
Please show me any other parable where Jesus named names. And of real people, no less. Go ahead.

“Jesus spoke all these things to the crowd in parables; he did not say anything to them without using a parable.”-Matthew 13:34

Weve been more than clear— you just refuse to see it.
Oh, yes. I refuse to accept your totally nonbiblical notions.

And weird? That is exactly how i perceive most of you who believe in the immortality of the soul — and who blasphemously think you can go directly to heaven without your wedding clothes/ immortal bodies, without being escorted by the bridegroom— Christ and without having to face the Jugdment— this has ALL been refuted with scripture which you willfully chose to ignore.
Seems you sure like to make up a lot of stuff. I've never even addressed these things that you now bring up. As to your BOGUS charge that I somehow think believers will never face judgment, what nonsense. EVERY believer will be judged at the Bema, or the Judgment Seat of Christ, 2 Cor 5:10.

You need to be much more careful before posting such tripe. iow, get your facts straight before embarrassing yourself.

This false teaching btw is believed by almost all people who believe in ‘a’ god, but not the one true God.
However they have ignorance and lack of bible knowledge for their excuse.
Just please answer my questions.

1. How is no longer existing, meaning no more negative emotions, no more pain, etc a punishment?
2. What is Jesus saving us FROM, since there will be NO CONSEQUENCES for any kind of behavior?
3. Why won't you address all the verses that have been giving proving that there is life after death, not some kind of slumber party until the resurrection?
 
Jan 31, 2021
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The “=“ sign means “is” in English. I could write out the entire sentence and the meaning would be the same.
The point is: to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. That’s why Paul said he preferred that option. He would rather be with the Lord, even if it meant physical death.
Those verses in 2 Cor 5 are so simple to understand even a grade school student can easily understand them.

But, the reason certain ones here ignore or twist them out of their obvious meaning is just a deflection to defend their own unbiblical notions.
 
Dec 15, 2021
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Me thinks he protests too much…
It always seems that way when we have no where else to go.

You say Satan is here.

I ask where.

I show you Scripture that DESCRIBES the miracles the WORLD WILL WITNESS and you respond with


Me thinks he protests too much.


What is worse than not knowing anything at all? Teaching falsely. Those who are not called yet do, need to remember JUDGMENT STARTS WITH THE TEACHERS.
 

ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
4,929
1,258
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If a person ceases to exist, the same result ensues: no grief, no sorrow, no pain, no guilt, no shame, no worry, etc, etc.
Those things are promised not to exist in the eternity, proving eternal torture to be false.


Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

A lot of negative things will not exist in the future.

Wiping tears away means no more tears. Tears will not exist.
There shall be no more death. Death will not exist.
There shall be no more sorrow. Sorrow will not exist.
There shall be no more crying. Crying will not exist.
There shall be no more pain. Pain will not exist.

"for the former things are passed away." That means they are gone, gone everywhere, gone forever. If those things existed anywhere then the scripture would be lying.



Tears, death, sorrow, crying and pain will be Annihilated and shall never again exist. Is it such a stretch that the unsaved wicked people will also be Annihilated? Scripture over and over promises that they shall be Annihilated. Believe what scripture says and reject false doctrines that teach otherwise.



That obviously removes any worry about suffering the consequences for bad decisions/behavior.
You are merely trivializing something which is far more fearful than you realize. Being killed in a fire and then never existing anymore is not a minor thing. It will be terrifying for the unsaved to know God is destroying them forever. That is an everlasting punishment.



So, what does Jesus SAVE people FROM, given your soul sleep/annihilation theory?
Annihilation. The saved get eternal life, the unsaved get eternal annihilation.
 

Laura798

Well-known member
Jun 6, 2020
1,716
593
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Your posts just keep making less sense and less sense.


Such garbage.


Deluded people think that way.

Please explain why Jesus told a theif that he would be with Jesus on THAT same day in Paradise. And yet you think dead people are slumbering in their graves. Is this just another parable?

How come you won't answer my question about WHAT Jesus saves us FROM? Why not?

How is ceasing to exist, meaning NO worry, no guilt, no shame, no pain, no nothing, a punishment? Can you explain that?

Or are you just going to keep on with this kind of post that is only a reflection of your inner self?

Garbage? Really--I'm quoting scripture and you call it garbage? Very Christ like of you.

Please explain Jesus saying to Mary "I have NOT yet ascended to the Father." and He did not do so until 40 DAYS LATER.

Don't you understand that when a person dies there is ZERO passage of time from the dead person's perspective? The bible is clear we will be changed in a 'twinkling of an eye' when the dead open their eyes it will be TODAY. Also note the comma was added by the translators--there is no punctuation in Greek.

"But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. "--Hebrews 3:13

It was 'Today' for the thief--Christ was making a proclamation--He was not saying they would be together in paradise on that day as evidence by Christ saying HIMSELF that he had not yet ascended.

How many more times do I need to say this? We must always test scripture against scripture--scripture never contradicts itself. Also it is in the isolation of verse that all false doctrine originates.


"The gospel is foolishness to those who are perishing."
 
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Please show me any other parable where Jesus named names. And of real people, no less. Go ahead.


Oh, yes. I refuse to accept your totally nonbiblical notions.


Seems you sure like to make up a lot of stuff. I've never even addressed these things that you now bring up. As to your BOGUS charge that I somehow think believers will never face judgment, what nonsense. EVERY believer will be judged at the Bema, or the Judgment Seat of Christ, 2 Cor 5:10.

You need to be much more careful before posting such tripe. iow, get your facts straight before embarrassing yourself.


Just please answer my questions.

1. How is no longer existing, meaning no more negative emotions, no more pain, etc a punishment?
2. What is Jesus saving us FROM, since there will be NO CONSEQUENCES for any kind of behavior?
3. Why won't you address all the verses that have been giving proving that there is life after death, not some kind of slumber party until the resurrection?
Why don't you believe Luke ch16 - "It's a parable."

Why don't you believe Revelation - "It's symbolic"

How do you know if what your believing is Truth? - It's a parable and it's symbolic.

Are your sure? - You're a false teacher, how dare you question me, you're evil

Rinse and Repeat
 
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You just don't get it
Say that to a mirror.

--the punishment is they are missing out on living ETERNALLY with God in paradise where there is NO MORE SUFFERING-
You just GOTTA BE KIDDING!! What do you think NOT EXISTING means? It means NO MORE SUFFERING. No more anything. How is that a punishment? Why won't you answer this? Why do you think ceasing to exist is any kind of "suffering"? There is nothing to think, feel or do.

Wow. How in the world can one have an adult discussion when they can't even comprehend what is so easy to see?

-as I said before you wouldnt think it was a big deal if you were offered a billion dollar lotto ticket and refused to take it and then find out later it was TRUE--that you really wouldve had a billion dollars? Are you serious?
Are YOU serious? If such a person who rejects eternal life gets cast into the lake of fire, and then CEASE TO EXIST, what does any of this matter? They are NO LONGER there. Gone. Nothing.

And believing in eternal conscious torment flies in the face of the whole message of the gospel--of who God is and the message of the redemption--it completely negates John 3:16: "“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” or Romans 6:23 "23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in[a] Christ Jesus our Lord. "

There is NO SUFFERING if one simply ceases to exist. There is NOTHING to suffer.


Why can't you see this? It's more obvious than the nose on your face.

Read Romans. Over and over and over again it says the punishment for sin is DEATH--the whole bible says that, but you must cling to your few paltry figurative verses in Revelation--you would rather equate our loving and just God with Satan himself.
I have been reading Romans (and the rest of the NT) monthly for about 2 decades. So don't tell me what to read.


So I've probably read the NT more than you ever will already.

But I fully understand what the Bible means by "perish" and "death". It means eternal separation of God, all the while CONSCIOUS.

And needless to say you must believe Christ DID NOT pay the penalty or else that He is or will also be in eternal conscious torment if THAT is the punishment for sin and NOT death.
I cannot figure out what this babble means. Can you please fix it?


I never said that Christ DID NOT pay the penalty. He DID, for everyone. But in order to avoid and be SAVED FROM the eternal lake of fire, one MUST believe in Christ.

Yet, you can't even answer my simple question about what Christ is saving us FROM, in your theories.

There will be NO MORE SORROW, NO MORE TEARS--I guess you don't believe that verse either
Already explained but I'll do it again. Your own unbiblical theories means that even unbelievers, by the means of ceasing to exist, will experience NO MORE SORROW, NO MORE TEARS.

How can a person who NO LONGER EXISTS have tears? Or have sorrow?

I am just stunned that all of this has somehow escaped your notice.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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You just don't get it--the punishment is they are missing out on living ETERNALLY with God in paradise where there is NO MORE SUFFERING
how is it punishment if they don't even exist?
sounds like rest. it's what those who hate God and deny God believe in: it's what they seek. to become nothing. to simply disappear. to escape judgement; to not be judged at all and have no consequence to suffer. the pagans call it nirvana. nothingness. eternal non-being. annihilation. atheistic monist physicalism.


but what does scripture say? there is no rest for the wicked.

the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever;
they have no rest day and night,
those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.
(Revelation 14:11)

it is evident that 'they' exist or 'they' could not be said to have no rest. unless you call God a liar? the deceiver?
the physical body returns to dust, and the nonphysical returns to God who gave it.
dust isn't nothing. sleep isn't ceasing to exist. death isn't annihilation and life is spiritual, not carnal.