Does 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 Teach Jesus Will Return With Dead Saints Now With Him In Heaven?

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1ofthem

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
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It seems you aren't really reading my posts; I already explained this is figurative language. Jesus himself said he spoke using figurative language:

John 16:25“Though I have been speaking figuratively, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language but will tell you plainly about my Father.

Matthew 13:34, "Jesus spoke all these things to the crowd in parables; he did not say anything to them without using a parable. "

Fire is used figuratively throughout scripture for destruction. This is evident by reading the literal verses.

It seems I have to keep repeating myself, but we must understand the difference between literal and figurative language; we must test scripture against scripture and never isolate verses as it is in the isolation of verses that ALL false doctrine derives from.
I really haven't and that's why I haven't replied, yet.

But I will reply shortly.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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For You will not leave my soul in Sheol,
nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.
(Psalm 16:10)
hey @Phoneman-777 why does the scripture describe the soul of one whose body has died as still having existence in Sheol?
is God a Satanic liar? that your best guess?
@Phoneman-777

did Christ cease to exist when He laid His body down in death?

foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ,
that His soul was not left in Hades

(Acts 2:31)

wow seems He wasn't annihilated huh
got any idea why God's Word constantly disagrees with the doctrine you teach?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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For you were like sheep going astray,
but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.
(1 Peter 2:25)
does My Shepherd lose even one of His souls? ((hint: nope. John 6:39 - which, incidentally, this verse says He raises up the souls of His sheep, not 'creates new replacement ones because all the originals are annihilated'))

seems to me if a soul ceased to exist that would count as "lost"
 

Laura798

Well-known member
Jun 6, 2020
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um no it means you were dead, as God defines death.

have you found the Biblical definition of life yet?
or you still going with the debased carnal atheistic evolutionary monist definition you love?
You said, " the debased carnal atheistic evolutionary monist definition you love? "

I know by reading this you cannot a true Christian. This is slanderous, Not one thing PM or I have said is atheistic, or carnal or evolutionary, or monist. I stand with him because what he says is true. I stand with him the same way Peter would stand with Paul.

"Nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor
slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. "--1st Corinthians 6:10
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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And you "The Truncator" need someone to give you a good bop on the head with one of your shin bones--what a horrible, slanderous thing to say!
why are you threatening me with physical violence for posting scripture?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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i realize you do not comprehend what you read, so i'm going to break it down for you again:

monism:
the belief that people are singularly physical beings who cease to exist when the body dies

that's your definition of "
death" is it not? cessation of existence?
that's tele-person's express doctrine.
it is also the atheist's doctrine; it is by very definition carnal because it depends wholly on the flesh, and it is in 100% opposition to scripture, as has been established over and over and over in this thread.

you hold this, and by doing so you call Christ a liar and God a purveyor of Satanic myths.
you wave your hand and say '
figurative!' but you call those very figures Satanic lies, so you call God a Satanic liar.

your doctrine says Christ teaches by Beelzebub.

it's wretched, and false.

go find me the Bible's definition of life
 

Laura798

Well-known member
Jun 6, 2020
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why are you threatening me with physical violence for posting scripture?

Wow just wow--you are such a manipulator--of course you know it had nothing to do with scripture, but instead about you saying Phone Man was calling God a liar.
 

Laura798

Well-known member
Jun 6, 2020
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why are you threatening me with physical violence for posting scripture?

Now I see you are clearly unable to differentiate between facetious, figurative language from the literal. I'm guessing any jokes thrown your way fall on deaf ears. To carry on any further dialogue with you would be an effort in futility. Adios.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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Phone Man was calling God a liar.
celldude has been constantly calling God a liar and teacher of Satanic myth.
have you really not been paying any attention at all, dear??

ask your compatriot tele-person whether Christ's words in Luke 16 are pagan lies from hell or not.
we've been over this. you said, oh, no, you didn't notice, and then you went right back to eating from his trough and violently assailing anyone who brings scripture to bear exposing the falsehood of dial-a-man's teachings.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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of course you know it had nothing to do with scripture
so it's for your devotion to an exposed & debunked false teacher that you are threatening me with physical violence. oh.

that doesn't make your behavior any better, dear.
it's functionally identical and ethically worse.
 

ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
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Exactly... why would Jesus have spent so much time warning about hell, eternal fire, eternal punishment if it didn't really exist?

The unrepentant are going where their "worm" dieth not and the fire is not quenched.
No, they aren't.

Isa 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.



It doesn't say the people never die. You also skipped over that it was speaking about carcasses which are dead bodies not living bodies. Worms also do not feed on living bodies. Nothing there supports your doctrine.

This is describing enemies that physically died and are rotting with worms. The bodies are being burned but all can't be burned at the same time. This is unrelated to lake of fire punishment. This about how humans have to deal with dead bodies after a war to prevent diseases etc from plaguing the living.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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Yes, a satanic witch forced Samuel to come up, right?

One would think the "immortal soul" crowd would ask themselves, "If silly Solomon was wrong and that Samuel was actually in heaven knowing things and doing things and was able to have things to do with all that stuff down there under the sun (Ecclesiastes 9:5-10 KJV)...why the flip did he "come up from below" instead of "coming down from heaven???"

Because what came up from below was demonic, that's why.
Where does scripture state your thought here in the passage? Samuel wasn’t in heaven. He was in Abraham’s bosom in the heart of the earth. How would Samuel get to heaven without the shed blood of Jesus?
 
Dec 29, 2021
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"And they shall go forth, and look upon the CORPSES of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh." "--Isaiah 66:24

A maggot feeds on death and decay--not a spirit. A maggot that does not die and a fire that is not quenched means that the thing it feds on is OBLITERATED. Clearly this is using FIGURATIVE Language--as maggots are not given immortality, neither is fire--both eventually die out.

CORPSES: Dead bodies.
So, you think the words of Christ were not literal?
 
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FreeGrace2 said:
Oh, what a softie. But go tell God how unfair He is then.

Why don't you realize that IF the 2 theories were correct (soul sleep and annihilation) then there is NO need of a Savior. Unbelievers can live like hell and face NO CONSEQUENCES whatsoever.
I believe you were the one FG2 that were calling our clearly articulated arguments with their supporting bible verses 'opinion'
I am because your arguments fail to align with Scripture. When clear evidence of life (not sleepy-time) after death is presented, you guys (and girl) claim the evidence is merely a parable. Nonsense. It is a very literal account of a beggar who went to Paradise and SAT in Abraham's bosom. I don't care what you call it. It is clearly NOT a parable.

Even if it was, why on earth would Jesus make up such a ludicrous story about dead people talking to each other, if that's NOT what happens. You can't defend your own claims.

And why haven't you addressed my points in post 424 about the TOTAL LACK OF CONSEQUENCE for unbelievers. At death, they go beddy-by and after a brief resurrection, they cease to exist.

All of which is nothing other than NO CONSEQUENCE.

Do you worry, or feel joy, or feel anything when you are sleeping? No. So don't give me any of this soul sleep/annihilation nonsense.

Why did Jesus tell a thief that he would be with Jesus in Paradise? Was that just an invite to a slumber party?

would you think it was of no consequence if I offered you a billion dollar lotto ticket which you refused to take?
Seems NONE of you get it. The sinful human nature that WANTS to live like hell while on earth and then check out and cease to exist would have no problem with that at all. In fact, THAT is the exact view of atheists. They think they will simply cease to exist when they die. So, in essence, there is NOTHING that threatens them with getting away with whatever they want to do.

Why on the earth can't you see this glaring issue?

Are you saying missing out on living in Paradise with our Heavenly Father and King for all eternity is of no consequence? Really?
Good grief. And you seem to be unable to comprehend words either.

I never said what you have fantasized about what I said. I was saying there is NO CONSEQUENCE for those who live like hell on earth if they go to sleep at death and then cease to exist after the GWT judgment.

There are no doubt counless people who would DEFINITELY choose to live like hell and then cease to exist (meaning NO CONSEQUENCE) rather than become a Christian. Anyone who doesn't believe that is just naive beyond belief.

And you don't believe Romans 6:23 or John 3:16--that the wages for sin is DEATH.
Oh, you are so wrong again. But I reject your nonsense about physical death being sleepy-time and the second death being ceasing to exist. What garbage. If those were true, then there would be NO CONSEQUENCES for unbelievers.

That the opposite of the gift of eternal life is to PERISH?
So naive. Because your warped definition of "perish" is to cease to exist, countless people would easily choose to live like hell and then cease to exist rather than living for Christ.

btw, since your views on soul sleep/annihilation remove ALL consequences for unbelief, those warped views remove the very reason that Jesus came to earth and paid the sin debt.

So please explain to me what Jesus is actually saving anyone from? Since there are NO CONSEQUENCES for unbelief in your system.

Or the plethora of literal verses that say plainly the wicked will be DESTROYED?
OK. If you think that means ceasing to exist, where are the consequences of sin then?

What does Jesus SAVE us from? It can't be the lake of fire, if one simply ceases to exist when cast into it.

And worst of all you it would mean you DON"T believe that Christ paid the penalty for sin by His death on the cross.
That couldn't be a more ridiculous statement. I absolutely do believe that He did.

It is YOUR warped theories that make His death worthless and meaningless IF dead souls sleep and the second death is simply ceasing to exist.

Once again, just to remind you, when sleeping or ceasing to exist, there are NO feelings at all; either of joy or suffering. Zero.

That is what I mean about NO CONSEQUENCES. No guilt, no shame, no regret, no cares at all.

You do understand if you truly believe eternal conscious torment is the punishment--even though scripture says there will be NO MORE SORROW--you are saying then Christ Himself is or will be suffering eternal conscious torment.
<sigh>. The verse about "no more sorrow" only applies to saved people, or didn't you know that?

It's really difficult trying to have a real discussion with people who are so clueless about the Bible.

Why would you think "no more sorrow" applies to the unsaved?

Again, please answer the question about what Jesus SAVES people FROM? I can't imagine from your theories.
 
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FreeGrace2 said:
I'm really not interested in the opinions of those who believe there will be NO CONSEQUENCES whatsoever for unbelievers.
Then, it's the Universalists with which you have a prob - they teach in the end, everyone gets to heaven.
Good grief! Can't you guys even read a post? I'm talking directly about YOUR warped soul sleep/annihilation notions.

I know what the idiot universalists believe. They can't read Scripture any better than those of your ilk can.

However:

If the Soul that sinneth shall died (Ezekiel 18:4 KJV),
and if the wicked do not possess immortality (2 Timothy 6:15-16 KJV),
and if the wicked are not granted immortality or eternal life (Romans 2:7-9 KJV)
and if no murderer hath eternal life (1 John 3:15 KJV)

....how can he have eternal suffering?
Your question comes from a very warped view of the Bible. In fact, you've misunderstood these verses totally.

There can't be a never-ending hell if there's no never-ending sinner.
Says who? Where do you get these little nuggets? Not from the Bible, you don't. So quit making up stuff.

Bottom line: when sleeping, there are no emotions to deal with. No grief, no sorrow, no pain, no guilt, no shame, no worry, etc. etc.

If a person ceases to exist, the same result ensues: no grief, no sorrow, no pain, no guilt, no shame, no worry, etc, etc.

iow, NO CONSEQUENCES for anything.

That obviously removes any worry about suffering the consequences for bad decisions/behavior.

So, what does Jesus SAVE people FROM, given your soul sleep/annihilation theory?
 

Rondonmon

Senior Member
May 13, 2016
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Who is being ruled and reigned over IF NOT THE DEAD who have just been raised when Christ returns?
The living who did not take the Mark of the Beast, and the newborn kids who become adults, and gave children themselves etc. etc. I think some are those who did take the Mark of the Beast also, but who weren't a part of the 1/3 who the 200 Million Angelic Army killed in the 2nd Woe, and who weren't dumb enough to try and defeat God at Armageddon, Preacher Jimmy Evans thinks that is what is meant by the Rod of Iron, human do not live twice. I love this thought (don't know 100 percent of I agree), I would love to see these modern day, arrogant liberals, who push all manner of evil via abortion on demand, homosexual marriage, transgender-FREAKISM, like Obama, AOC, and NY Mayor, Bill de Blasio have to live under Jesus'' 1000 year reign for the whole 1000 years !!

The Dead are raised in 1000 years. That's the biblical facts brother.

"let the dead bury their dead' meaning the 'spiritually dead' , still mortal, (didn't believe in the Messiah, believed in some other religion, never heard truth GROUPS OF those who stayed in the grave because they didn't CHOOSE LIFE). are raised from the GRAVE to an incorruptible yet mortal body to be TAUGHT for the 1000 years. The nations come to WORSHIP and those who don't don't get rain.
You can't throw in a scripture completely out of context like that one in Luke 9:60, that i about someone following Jesus during Jesus' lifetime. Those dead are yet to be judged. The Righteous were already Judged and Raptured to Heaven pre trib., these seen here on Rev. 20:4 are the Righteous Martyrs of the 70th week tribulation period, they get judged just after Jesus' Second Coming. The DEAD are Judged 1000 years later, the scripture shouts this truth out.

Now, as we look back at where this discussion originated, in 1 Cor. 15, we can clearly see this is about the CORRUPTION of ALL Human Beings bodies in general, in that our sin flesh is corrupted and can not be salvaged.

1 Cor. 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. 40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption;(Sin Flesh) it is raised in incorruption:(Spirit Man)

43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory:(Means this is about ONLY those in Christ Jesus)it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

The whole chapters about the Dead in Christ not THE DEAD who will be raised 1000 years after Jesus reign on earth.

SO, WHEN ARE HE DEAD JUDGED? Rev. 20 tells us, its simple....AFTER the 1000 years.

Rev. 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

So, the Dead are raised AFTER the 1000 years, the Dead in Crhrst are raised BEFORE the 70th week trib.

BELIEVERS GO TO HEAVEN, NON BELIEVERS GO TO THE GRAVE.


SO WHO IS RAISED ON THE DAY CHRIST RETURNS? NOT THE BELIEVERS AS THEY ARE RETURNING WITH CHRIST.

SO, the only ones on earth to RAISE, (notice not resurrect) are those who have been in bondage to death and those who have just been destroyed by the coming of the Lord and His armies

and those who are alive and remaining who will be changed.
Nope, the Martyrs of the 70th week AND all the Jewish Saints (the Bride of the Father) are raised AT THE VERY END, as Jesus (Man in Linen) told Daniel in Daniel chapter 12 would happen. No one who does during the 70th week goes to Heaven, they MUST WAIT until all of their brothers have been killed in like manner as they have according to Jesus in his 5th Seal Prophetic Uttering.

THERE IS NO PRE TRIB RAPURE. BECAUSE NO ONE WHO BELIEVES IN IT CAN SHOW THE CHURCH BEING TAKEN TO HEAVEN AT ANY TIME, EVER.
Yes there is, this just proves further why you are confused by the rest of the scriptures.

NEVER IS A GROUP REMOVED FROM THE EARTH TO ESCAPE ANYTHING. ever as a matter of fact,

GOD LIKES TO SEE THE DEATH OF HIS SAINTS. GOD LIKES US TO BE PERFECTED WHILE WE ARE IN FLESH BODIES. PERSECUTION AND TRIBULATION AND AFFLICTION ALL WORK FOR GOOD AND GOD. God makes sure those He loves are CHASTISED.
SURE...........:LOL:


The rest of that post is not worth a rely in that is he same ole redundant verbiage.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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And here you go again calling our well supported arguments 'opinions'-- but it is you who speak from your opinions not us; furthermore, you are using ALL figurative verses.

Oh, nonsense. You are refuted by Lazarusd and the rich man in Hades, so you punt and call it merely a parable. Jesus told a thief he would be with Jesus in Paradise that day. Go figure. Oh, right, you can't because you think all dead people are snoring until the resurrection.


“Though I have been speaking figuratively, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language but will tell you plainly about my Father. "--John 16:25

And Jesus actually did that before the crucifixion.


You said, "I expect you'll make up something to fit your opinions, but Jesus was clear. Those being cast into the lake of fire will have a "more bearable" or "less bearable" experience than others. " --Really? Where did Jesus say that?
I actually quoted 3 verses from Jesus. Don't you read posts? Or maybe just shoot from your hip or lip.


You said, "Unbelievers will be uncomfortable in Torments, awaiting their judgment at the GWT. Then they will exist for ever and ever (Rev 20:10) in either a more bearable or less bearable condition for eternity.--Really? Where does scripture say this?
Go back and read what I already gave, since you didn't read my post yet.


What happened to the wicked in Sodom and Gomorrah by the way? They were completely and utterly DESTROYED. Even to this day no town or cities have been built in that region--and they still find sulfur balls there.
Oh, how naive. Their bodies were destroyed in the fire that rained down on the cities. Good grief and pay attention to the passages.

And your flippant comment about S & G directly mock what Jesus said. I don't appreciate such behavior. So please cease.
 
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You think being blotted out of existence is inconsequential? That's ridiculous.
Really? You think so? Please explain how ceasing to exist is any kind of uncomfortable condition.

Or, explain how it is consequential to cease to exist, which means no awareness of anything, no feelings, nothing.

Isn't that much better, in fact, than feeling guilt, shame, grief, sorrow, worry, pain, etc?

I'd take ceasing to exist any day over all these feelings.

What's worse, a life sentence or capital punishment? I guess you stand outside the courthouse railing against the death penalty, right?
Thanks for revealing such a shallow grasp of reality. In your warped world, capital punishment only means to cease to exist. Which would be MUCH BETTER, by far, than living in a cell for the rest of your life.

How in the world can't you see this?
 

Rondonmon

Senior Member
May 13, 2016
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I keep hearing you say it and all I want is to hear GOD SAY IT. Where is it written? Right now you have be going under the law here (feasts) but not there (grace) , under grace here,(church) but not there (Jews) and this doesn't come across as arbitrary to you?
What did Jesus say why He spoke n parables? Because the Disciples hearing understood but the world hearing would hear and still not understand. I think you just answered your own question of why you can't see something that I can and do see very easily. If the Holy Spirit can't make you see it, then me explaining it for the 100th time will more than likely do no good either, its a Spiritual thing.
 
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You say, "

Your view of Scripture is so clueless, there is realy no point in hoping for a reasonable/rational discussion. You just really don't get it


I say: DITTO. That goes for YOU. What you believe is thoroughly unbiblical not to mention nonsensical.
lol. Thanks for a irrelevant opinion. Your views have been thoroughly refuted. You just are too blind to see it.

The verses you guys hide behind are being misunderstood. You've been given clear verses that refute your ideas, and you just dismiss them.

Just answer my question please about WHAT Jesus is saving people FROM, since dying apart from Christ has NO CONSEQUENCES.

Just a good night's sleep until the GWT judgment, and then nothingness. How is that a consequence, since there are no feelings or any kind of awareness in those conditions?