Does 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 Teach Jesus Will Return With Dead Saints Now With Him In Heaven?
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That's not what Solomon says. Solomon, as well as the rest of the OT and NT writers, is clear that death means "cessation of life" not a continuation thereof.
Does the light continue to shine on another plane of existence when a light bulb is switched off?
Likewise, how can the Soul continue to exist if the Breath of Life is removed from the Body?
Does the light continue to shine on another plane of existence when a light bulb is switched off?
Likewise, how can the Soul continue to exist if the Breath of Life is removed from the Body?
There is nothing merciful about torturing humans for all eternity for 70 short years of sin.
Job asks "Shall mortal man be MORE just than God?" We recognize the injustice of punishing a shoplifter with burning them alive, but it seems the "immortal soul" crowd thinks they're MORE just than God Who will burn people alive for all eternity.
Job asks "Shall mortal man be MORE just than God?" We recognize the injustice of punishing a shoplifter with burning them alive, but it seems the "immortal soul" crowd thinks they're MORE just than God Who will burn people alive for all eternity.
Are you proud that by your flawed attempts at exegesis you illustrate what it means to put the proverbial "sword in the hands of a child" like when you tried to tell the CC community that the Wicked can partake of "agape" and I showed you from Scripture what a satanic lie that was?
"Soul" not only refers to the "whole" comprised of the two parts - the Body and Breath of Life - but also means "life" as in when Rachel was about to die and her "soul was departing". It means "life was departing her body" not "her soul was departing for heaven or hell".
Genesis 2:7 KJV is clear that the Soul comes into existence as a consequence of the union of the Body and the Breath of Life.
"Soul" not only refers to the "whole" comprised of the two parts - the Body and Breath of Life - but also means "life" as in when Rachel was about to die and her "soul was departing". It means "life was departing her body" not "her soul was departing for heaven or hell".
Genesis 2:7 KJV is clear that the Soul comes into existence as a consequence of the union of the Body and the Breath of Life.
A Soul "in" Sheol doesn't mean it yet exists there - it's a poetic reference for death, which is the cessation of the Soul. How do we know?
Because Genesis 2:7 KJV plainly teaches the Soul comes into existence as a consequence of the union of the Body and the Breath of Life, and can no more exist once the Body returns to dust and the Spirit to God anymore than light can continue to shine once electric current is removed from a light bulb.
Because Genesis 2:7 KJV plainly teaches the Soul comes into existence as a consequence of the union of the Body and the Breath of Life, and can no more exist once the Body returns to dust and the Spirit to God anymore than light can continue to shine once electric current is removed from a light bulb.
I remember when you called God a Satanic liar when you said the wicked can partake of His agape, though Scripture plainly says God is "holy, undefiled, separate from sinners".
I mean, we all agree the subject of death and hell can be easily misunderstood if one is not careful. But, the clarity of Scripture - being such that "even a wayfarer, though a fool, need not err therein" - makes absolutely certain the wicked cannot partake of agape, because "the agape of God" is demonstrated by keeping His commandments (1 John 5:2-3 KJV), yet the wicked can't keep God's commandments even if they wanted to (Romans 8:7 KJV)...which begs the question: "How long you gonna travel that road before you turn your steps toward the Path of the Just?"
I mean, we all agree the subject of death and hell can be easily misunderstood if one is not careful. But, the clarity of Scripture - being such that "even a wayfarer, though a fool, need not err therein" - makes absolutely certain the wicked cannot partake of agape, because "the agape of God" is demonstrated by keeping His commandments (1 John 5:2-3 KJV), yet the wicked can't keep God's commandments even if they wanted to (Romans 8:7 KJV)...which begs the question: "How long you gonna travel that road before you turn your steps toward the Path of the Just?"
How big is Abraham's bosom that it can simultaneously embrace all righteous dead that have ever died? Abraham would have had to be about a 10 miles tall and his bosom 3 miles wide, right?
("Abraham's bosom" is a symbol in the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus which must be interpreted to get its true meaning).
("Abraham's bosom" is a symbol in the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus which must be interpreted to get its true meaning).
I suggest you go back and read the passage, friend, because Paul didn't say "IS", he said "AND". Of course, your fellow "immortal soul" crowd members won't point that out to you but no matter.
Paul is saying he'd rather be absent from this mortal body, skip lying in the grave dead without a body awaiting the resurrection, and go straight to heaven in his resurrection body, but he knew that wouldn't happen at his death because he himself said he wouldn't put on his "incorruptible" body until "the last trump" when Jesus comes.
Paul is sleeping in the grave "resting in peace", not wandering the streets of gold yet.
Paul is saying he'd rather be absent from this mortal body, skip lying in the grave dead without a body awaiting the resurrection, and go straight to heaven in his resurrection body, but he knew that wouldn't happen at his death because he himself said he wouldn't put on his "incorruptible" body until "the last trump" when Jesus comes.
Paul is sleeping in the grave "resting in peace", not wandering the streets of gold yet.
Chiasms prevent us from making the Bible say just anything - especially when it comes to eschatological interpretation - but since so many are willing to ignore them, hence the "immortal soul" crowd, the "Jesuit 'Left Behind' Futurist" crowd, the "angels can get freaky with human females" crowd, etc.
Yep, old appears new to those who know not, like Jesus' two "new" commandments, both of which are found in the OT.
"Foreknowledge" of a thing doesn't demand it's preexistence.
Really? Ezekiel says the soul that sinneth, it shall die; James says conversion saves a soul from death; Revelation says when the waters shall be turned to blood in the seven last plagues, "every living soul died in the sea, etc. I could go on.
"Foreknowledge" of a thing doesn't demand it's preexistence.
Really? Ezekiel says the soul that sinneth, it shall die; James says conversion saves a soul from death; Revelation says when the waters shall be turned to blood in the seven last plagues, "every living soul died in the sea, etc. I could go on.
No, you don't get to skip over THE BASICS and move onto all the whys and wheres like that makes it real. It doesn't. Sorry, it's made up. Pieced together Scripture in which MAN DECLARES HIMSELF SAVED. No death, no judgment, just saved.
The CHURCHES Jesus DESCRIBES FOR us of WOULD BURN TO A CRISP IF THEY WERE TAKEN TO HEAVEN.
Show me the CHURCH being taken to heaven. ONCE you can do that, we could talk about all you put on after.
THOSE who have GONE TO SLEEP,
NOT THE PRE TRIB RAPTURED CHURCH
return with CHRIST.
SHOW ME WHERE
'THE CHURCH' GOES TO CHRIST OTHER THAN WHEN THOSE WHO HAVE SLEPT/DIED RETURN WITH HIM.
Here is what you are going to DO INSTEAD OF THAT. YOU ARE GOING TO GIVE ME LONG EXPLANATIONS AND a lot of verses that require conjecture for this theory to work.
What you are saying is the book is written to those who are going to be using it or those who don't read it.
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
The CHURCHES Jesus DESCRIBES FOR us of WOULD BURN TO A CRISP IF THEY WERE TAKEN TO HEAVEN.
Show me the CHURCH being taken to heaven. ONCE you can do that, we could talk about all you put on after.
THOSE who have GONE TO SLEEP,
NOT THE PRE TRIB RAPTURED CHURCH
return with CHRIST.
SHOW ME WHERE
'THE CHURCH' GOES TO CHRIST OTHER THAN WHEN THOSE WHO HAVE SLEPT/DIED RETURN WITH HIM.
Here is what you are going to DO INSTEAD OF THAT. YOU ARE GOING TO GIVE ME LONG EXPLANATIONS AND a lot of verses that require conjecture for this theory to work.
What you are saying is the book is written to those who are going to be using it or those who don't read it.
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
WHAT WE REALLY NEED IS A SAVE YOUR OWN SOUL BEFORE DEATH AND JUDGMENT DOCTIRNE.
Oh wait, we already have one, PRE TRIBULATION RAPTURE THEORY
GOD speaks against PROMISING LIFE and that is exactly what pre trib rapture does.
Not one person in the bible taught a pre tribulation rapture, EVEN Paul spoke directly against it. 2 Thess
Ezekiel 13:17 Likewise, thou son of man, set thy face against the daughters of thy people, which prophesy out of their own heart; and prophesy thou against them,
18 And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe to the women that sew pillows to all armholes, and make kerchiefs upon the head of every stature to hunt souls! Will ye hunt the souls of my people, and will ye save the souls alive that come unto you?
19 And will ye pollute Me among My people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, to slay the souls that should not die, and to save the souls alive that should not live, by your lying to my people that hear your lies?
20 Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.
21 Your kerchiefs also will I tear, and deliver My people out of your hand, and they shall be no more in your hand to be hunted; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
22 Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad AND STRENGTHENED THE HANDS OF THE WICKED THAT HE SHOULD NOT RETURN FROM HIS WICKED WAY BY PROMISING HIM LIFE.
23 Therefore ye shall see no more vanity, nor divine divinations: for I will deliver my people out of your hand: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
Oh wait, we already have one, PRE TRIBULATION RAPTURE THEORY
GOD speaks against PROMISING LIFE and that is exactly what pre trib rapture does.
Not one person in the bible taught a pre tribulation rapture, EVEN Paul spoke directly against it. 2 Thess
Ezekiel 13:17 Likewise, thou son of man, set thy face against the daughters of thy people, which prophesy out of their own heart; and prophesy thou against them,
18 And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe to the women that sew pillows to all armholes, and make kerchiefs upon the head of every stature to hunt souls! Will ye hunt the souls of my people, and will ye save the souls alive that come unto you?
19 And will ye pollute Me among My people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, to slay the souls that should not die, and to save the souls alive that should not live, by your lying to my people that hear your lies?
20 Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.
21 Your kerchiefs also will I tear, and deliver My people out of your hand, and they shall be no more in your hand to be hunted; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
22 Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad AND STRENGTHENED THE HANDS OF THE WICKED THAT HE SHOULD NOT RETURN FROM HIS WICKED WAY BY PROMISING HIM LIFE.
23 Therefore ye shall see no more vanity, nor divine divinations: for I will deliver my people out of your hand: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
You obviously don't understand scriptures including Ezekiel....that is referring to the 2nd death as in eternal damnation...not terminal as in ending.
Bring on the new in the OT to which you refer?...both please.
Foreknowledge and preexistence are a catch 22....... you need to comprehend.
Bring on the new in the OT to which you refer?...both please.
Foreknowledge and preexistence are a catch 22....... you need to comprehend.
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FreeGrace2 said:
The death will be quick.
You don't know that. How long would you last if thrown into a cauldron?
Have you ever met a scared atheist? They EXPECT to cease to exit. There's NO fear in that.
The fear people have is the UNKNOWN aspect of what's after death. Those who believe in ceasing to exist have NO REASON TO FEAR.
But you guys just don't get it.
So, no, you are quite wrong and you still don't get it.
Your view aligns perfectly with what atheists are expecting. Congratulations.
Unbelievers will NOT see eternal life, and their resurrected bodies will be destroyed. Rev 20:10 says very clearly that those in the lake of fire will "be tormented day and night for ever and ever".
That IS scary. Ceasing to exist is NOT scary. Why you can't see that is just amazing.
btw, talk about "flawed reasoning", that's you guys all over. let's consider Luke 16 and Lazarus the beggar and the rich man.
You guys deflect by calling it a parable, which allows you to explain it any way you want. When Jesus gave a parable, He was the ONLY ONE who could explain it. It was HIS parable.
So, can you explain WHY Jesus would give a parable with a scenario that is totally impossible, since you believe that all dead people are sleeping? No, you can't. If all dead people sleep, then Jesus' parable would be INSANE and totally rejected as fantasy.
Can you point to ANY of Jesus' parables that are just unreal fantasies? No, you can't.
Nonsense. The subject of that verse is eternal life. Unbelievers will NOT see eternal life.
Being able to and DOING something are not the same. Show me any verse that clearly shows a soul being annihilated.
Let's go back to Luke 16. Your problem is revealed by your refusal to accept a real account. Instead, you hold to the totally ridiculous view that Jesus gave a parable that was totally fantasy and you can't explain WHY He did what WHAT He was teaching.
And your "small sampling" is annihilated by Luke 16 and the account of 3 real people in the afterlife, 2 of which were speaking to each other.
That's the "annihilation" that I totally believe.
The death will be quick.
You don't know that. How long would you last if thrown into a cauldron?
Have you ever met a scared atheist? They EXPECT to cease to exit. There's NO fear in that.
The fear people have is the UNKNOWN aspect of what's after death. Those who believe in ceasing to exist have NO REASON TO FEAR.
But you guys just don't get it.
So, no, you are quite wrong and you still don't get it.
Your view aligns perfectly with what atheists are expecting. Congratulations.
Unbelievers will NOT see eternal life, and their resurrected bodies will be destroyed. Rev 20:10 says very clearly that those in the lake of fire will "be tormented day and night for ever and ever".
That IS scary. Ceasing to exist is NOT scary. Why you can't see that is just amazing.
btw, talk about "flawed reasoning", that's you guys all over. let's consider Luke 16 and Lazarus the beggar and the rich man.
You guys deflect by calling it a parable, which allows you to explain it any way you want. When Jesus gave a parable, He was the ONLY ONE who could explain it. It was HIS parable.
So, can you explain WHY Jesus would give a parable with a scenario that is totally impossible, since you believe that all dead people are sleeping? No, you can't. If all dead people sleep, then Jesus' parable would be INSANE and totally rejected as fantasy.
Can you point to ANY of Jesus' parables that are just unreal fantasies? No, you can't.
Nonsense. The subject of that verse is eternal life. Unbelievers will NOT see eternal life.
Being able to and DOING something are not the same. Show me any verse that clearly shows a soul being annihilated.
Let's go back to Luke 16. Your problem is revealed by your refusal to accept a real account. Instead, you hold to the totally ridiculous view that Jesus gave a parable that was totally fantasy and you can't explain WHY He did what WHAT He was teaching.
And your "small sampling" is annihilated by Luke 16 and the account of 3 real people in the afterlife, 2 of which were speaking to each other.
That's the "annihilation" that I totally believe.
FreeGrace2 said:
I think the unsaved get back into their old physical bodies to be burned in the lake of fire, while their souls will be "tormented day and night for ever and ever" according to Rev 20:10.
Who do you think the beast and FP are? Aliens from Mars or something? No, they are real human beings, and they will be thrown into the lake of fire in their earthly bodies. And 1,000 years later, when Satan is thrown in there, the beast and FP are STILL THERE.
"And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever."
So, tell me please, just who does the "they will be tormented" refer to, if only Satan is there now?
What we actually read is that Satan is cast where the beast and FP "had been thrown" and THEY will be tormented.
One of the glaring problems with the soul sleepers and annihilators is their poor reading skills.
Rev 20:10 is VERY CLEAR that the beast and FP will be STILL THERE when Satan will be thrown in there.
To claim otherwise is worse than stupid.
I think the unsaved get back into their old physical bodies to be burned in the lake of fire, while their souls will be "tormented day and night for ever and ever" according to Rev 20:10.
Who do you think the beast and FP are? Aliens from Mars or something? No, they are real human beings, and they will be thrown into the lake of fire in their earthly bodies. And 1,000 years later, when Satan is thrown in there, the beast and FP are STILL THERE.
"And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever."
So, tell me please, just who does the "they will be tormented" refer to, if only Satan is there now?
What we actually read is that Satan is cast where the beast and FP "had been thrown" and THEY will be tormented.
One of the glaring problems with the soul sleepers and annihilators is their poor reading skills.
Rev 20:10 is VERY CLEAR that the beast and FP will be STILL THERE when Satan will be thrown in there.
To claim otherwise is worse than stupid.