Does 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 Teach Jesus Will Return With Dead Saints Now With Him In Heaven?
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WHAT?
Maybe this will make you feel better. EVEN if there were to be an eternal lake of fire WE WOULDN'T KNOW ABOUT IT ANYHOW.
Ecclesiastes 1:11 There is no remembrance of former things; neither shall there be any remembrance of things that are to come with those that shall come after.
Revelation 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
Revelation 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
Revelation 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
Revelation 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
We do agree the lake of fire comes upon THIS EARTH? SO
Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Revelation 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
WHERE DID IT GO? IT PASSED AWAY. HOW CAN IT PASS AWAY AND STILL BE THERE?
These are not my words.
Maybe this will make you feel better. EVEN if there were to be an eternal lake of fire WE WOULDN'T KNOW ABOUT IT ANYHOW.
Ecclesiastes 1:11 There is no remembrance of former things; neither shall there be any remembrance of things that are to come with those that shall come after.
Revelation 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
Revelation 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
Revelation 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
Revelation 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
We do agree the lake of fire comes upon THIS EARTH? SO
Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Revelation 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
WHERE DID IT GO? IT PASSED AWAY. HOW CAN IT PASS AWAY AND STILL BE THERE?
These are not my words.
Here it is. Jesus said "I HAVE NOT YET ASCENDED TO MY FATHER."
Therefore since Jesus HIMSELF said He had NOT ASCENDED, the thief could NOT be with Jesu THAT day in paradise.
" “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. "---John 20:17
Are you saying you don't believe Jesus meant what He said?
I am getting so frustrated here--it's like being in a Christian episode of Alice in Wonderland...or Lord of the Flies.
I
Therefore since Jesus HIMSELF said He had NOT ASCENDED, the thief could NOT be with Jesu THAT day in paradise.
" “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. "---John 20:17
Are you saying you don't believe Jesus meant what He said?
I am getting so frustrated here--it's like being in a Christian episode of Alice in Wonderland...or Lord of the Flies.
I
John 20:3 Peter therefore went forth, and that other disciple, and came to the sepulchre.
John 20:4 So they ran both together: and the other disciple did outrun Peter, and came first to the sepulchre.
John 20:5 And he stooping down, and looking in, saw the linen clothes lying; yet went he not in.
John 20:6 Then cometh Simon Peter following him, and went into the sepulchre, and seeth the linen clothes lie,
John 20:7 And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself.
John 20:8 Then went in also that other disciple, which came first to the sepulchre, and he saw, and believed.
John 20:9 For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.
John 20:10 Then the disciples went away again unto their own home.
John 20:11 But Mary stood without at the sepulchre weeping: and as she wept, she stooped down, and looked into the sepulchre,
John 20:12 And seeth two angels in white sitting, the one at the head, and the other at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain.
John 20:13 And they say unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? She saith unto them, Because they have taken away my LORD, and I know not where they have laid him.
John 20:14 And when she had thus said, she turned herself back, and saw Jesus standing, and knew not that it was Jesus.
John 20:15 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away.
John 20:16 Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.
John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
John 20:18 Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the LORD, and that he had spoken these things unto her.
John 20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
I see this as that day, you as 40 days later.
John 20:4 So they ran both together: and the other disciple did outrun Peter, and came first to the sepulchre.
John 20:5 And he stooping down, and looking in, saw the linen clothes lying; yet went he not in.
John 20:6 Then cometh Simon Peter following him, and went into the sepulchre, and seeth the linen clothes lie,
John 20:7 And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself.
John 20:8 Then went in also that other disciple, which came first to the sepulchre, and he saw, and believed.
John 20:9 For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.
John 20:10 Then the disciples went away again unto their own home.
John 20:11 But Mary stood without at the sepulchre weeping: and as she wept, she stooped down, and looked into the sepulchre,
John 20:12 And seeth two angels in white sitting, the one at the head, and the other at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain.
John 20:13 And they say unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? She saith unto them, Because they have taken away my LORD, and I know not where they have laid him.
John 20:14 And when she had thus said, she turned herself back, and saw Jesus standing, and knew not that it was Jesus.
John 20:15 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away.
John 20:16 Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.
John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
John 20:18 Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the LORD, and that he had spoken these things unto her.
John 20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
I see this as that day, you as 40 days later.
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Again—isolating verses and being ignorant of the rest of scripture— youre not curious that in the same breath Jesus says he has not ascended yet says to announce that He is ascending to the Father? Does Christ contradict Himself?
See later in Acts the rest of the story,
"1 The former account I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, 2 until the day in which [a]He was taken up, after He through the Holy Spirit had given commandments to the apostles whom He had chosen, 3 to whom He also presented Himself alive after His suffering by many [b]infallible proofs, being seen by them during forty days and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God.” Acts 1:1-3
See later in Acts the rest of the story,
"1 The former account I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, 2 until the day in which [a]He was taken up, after He through the Holy Spirit had given commandments to the apostles whom He had chosen, 3 to whom He also presented Himself alive after His suffering by many [b]infallible proofs, being seen by them during forty days and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God.” Acts 1:1-3
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So what are you showing me? This doesn't say He didn't ascend before those 40 days. It says he was seen during them so this is not helpful.
How about this? Did He make them wait 40 days to ascend into heaven?
Ephesians 4:8 Wherefore He saith, When He ascended up on high, He led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
Ephesians 4:9 (Now that He ascended, what is it but that He also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
Ephesians 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that He might fill all things.)
How about this? Did He make them wait 40 days to ascend into heaven?
Ephesians 4:8 Wherefore He saith, When He ascended up on high, He led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
Ephesians 4:9 (Now that He ascended, what is it but that He also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
Ephesians 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that He might fill all things.)
You asked: “How can a person NO LONGER EXISTS have tears? Or have sorrow?”
Well thats any easy one—they cant. No more than a man with no eyes can see or a person with no fingers can pick his nose.
And here you give a brand new definition that is nowhere to be found in ANY dictionary:
“But I fully understand what the Bible means by "perish" and "death". It means eternal separation of God, all the while CONSCIOUS.”🙄
You say you’ve studied the scriptures for decades— I believe the Pharisees said the same thing- they were,
“Always studying, but never coming to the knowledge of the truth.”
Well thats any easy one—they cant. No more than a man with no eyes can see or a person with no fingers can pick his nose.
And here you give a brand new definition that is nowhere to be found in ANY dictionary:
“But I fully understand what the Bible means by "perish" and "death". It means eternal separation of God, all the while CONSCIOUS.”🙄
You say you’ve studied the scriptures for decades— I believe the Pharisees said the same thing- they were,
“Always studying, but never coming to the knowledge of the truth.”
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What do your verses have to do with WHEN he ascended? Clearly Luke is telling us Christ did not ascend until 40 days AFTER his resurrection.
Billy Graham commentary on the 40 days before Christs ascension:
One reason Jesus stayed on earth for 40 days after His resurrectioninstead of ascending immediately into heaven was to demonstrate to His followers that He truly was alive.
After all, they knew the Roman authorities had put Jesus to death, and that His body had been taken down from the cross and sealed in a tomb. And when that happened, they were filled with despair and fear; many even went into hiding. They had believed Jesus was the promised Messiah—and now their hopes were shattered. They had forgotten His promise that He would return from the grave, and they felt they had no future.
But when Jesus appeared among them after the resurrection, their lives were changed. The greatest miracle in all history had just taken place: Jesus Christ was alive! During those 40 days, He appeared to various groups of disciples, proving beyond doubt to them that he had been raised from the dead by the power of God. Over two decades later, the Apostle Paul wrote that “he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living” (1 Corinthians 15:6)
https://billygraham.org/answer/why-...ave-instead-of-going-immediately-into-heaven/
Billy Graham commentary on the 40 days before Christs ascension:
One reason Jesus stayed on earth for 40 days after His resurrectioninstead of ascending immediately into heaven was to demonstrate to His followers that He truly was alive.
After all, they knew the Roman authorities had put Jesus to death, and that His body had been taken down from the cross and sealed in a tomb. And when that happened, they were filled with despair and fear; many even went into hiding. They had believed Jesus was the promised Messiah—and now their hopes were shattered. They had forgotten His promise that He would return from the grave, and they felt they had no future.
But when Jesus appeared among them after the resurrection, their lives were changed. The greatest miracle in all history had just taken place: Jesus Christ was alive! During those 40 days, He appeared to various groups of disciples, proving beyond doubt to them that he had been raised from the dead by the power of God. Over two decades later, the Apostle Paul wrote that “he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living” (1 Corinthians 15:6)
https://billygraham.org/answer/why-...ave-instead-of-going-immediately-into-heaven/
knowing at present no better explanation, i also see this as that day -
Luke 24:39 has Him inviting them to touch His body, so they can see that He is truly resurrected, and is not just a spirit. this coincides with John 20:19
so in the interim between John 20:17-20:19 something changed. a logical conclusion is that He entered the holy place and completed His priestly work.
@Laura798 does B Graham or E G White or P Dude have an alternative scenario that explains why He told the women that morning not to touch Him and then told the men that evening to touch Him?
one other interpretation that i have heard is that in John 20:17 the word touch should be understood as 'cling to' - as some versions also choose to translate. the idea being that He would not tarry long before ascending so they should no longer be dependent on His bodily presence with them. this however doesn't seem to jive particularly well with His explanation, 'for I am not yet ascended' which gives the impression that touching/clinging is OK after He completes what He will do by ascending to the Father.
by His own blood He entered in once into the holy place,
having obtained eternal redemption for us.
(Hebrews 9:12)
He sprinkled His blood on the heavenly ark, and our atonement was completeLuke 24:39 has Him inviting them to touch His body, so they can see that He is truly resurrected, and is not just a spirit. this coincides with John 20:19
so in the interim between John 20:17-20:19 something changed. a logical conclusion is that He entered the holy place and completed His priestly work.
@Laura798 does B Graham or E G White or P Dude have an alternative scenario that explains why He told the women that morning not to touch Him and then told the men that evening to touch Him?
one other interpretation that i have heard is that in John 20:17 the word touch should be understood as 'cling to' - as some versions also choose to translate. the idea being that He would not tarry long before ascending so they should no longer be dependent on His bodily presence with them. this however doesn't seem to jive particularly well with His explanation, 'for I am not yet ascended' which gives the impression that touching/clinging is OK after He completes what He will do by ascending to the Father.
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FreeGrace2 said:
You equate physical death with eternal death. If not existing is a punishment, what is being experienced all the while one doesn't exist? Can you explain that?
The death will be quick. And to never exist doesn't hurt one bit. So, no, you are quite wrong and you still don't get it.
Your view aligns perfectly with what atheists are expecting. Congratulations.
You equate physical death with eternal death. If not existing is a punishment, what is being experienced all the while one doesn't exist? Can you explain that?
The death will be quick. And to never exist doesn't hurt one bit. So, no, you are quite wrong and you still don't get it.
Your view aligns perfectly with what atheists are expecting. Congratulations.
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Yeah, talk about "dull". Those who think sleeping until the GWT judgment and then ceasing to exist is some kind of punishment. Sure.
What a lie. You can to better than that.
You've beens shown numerous verses about souls speaking in heaven, Samuel coming back from the dead, Jesus telling a thief that he would be with Jesus in Paradise, Lazarus and the rich man.
All of which you simply disregard. Because they refute your theories. Dull.
What a lie. You can to better than that.
You've beens shown numerous verses about souls speaking in heaven, Samuel coming back from the dead, Jesus telling a thief that he would be with Jesus in Paradise, Lazarus and the rich man.
All of which you simply disregard. Because they refute your theories. Dull.
What's to be scared of? All atheists EXPECT to NOT EXIST when they die. They will happily agree with your theories. Congratulations.
You CAN'T explain how not existing is a punishment. Those who no longer exist NO LONGER SUFFER, NO LONGER FEEL PAIN, SORROW, GUILT, ETC.
It's the dull ones who aren't comprehending this.
You CAN'T explain how not existing is a punishment. Those who no longer exist NO LONGER SUFFER, NO LONGER FEEL PAIN, SORROW, GUILT, ETC.
It's the dull ones who aren't comprehending this.
Well then, just apply that idea to suffering. If one simply ceases to exist, then there is NOTHING to suffer from.
So, in fact, they would be freed of any more suffering. Just what the atheists are expecting. Congratulations.
Apparently you haven't read James 2:26.
What I know for sure is that you have no clue as to what the Bible says. Your views are what atheists believe, or hope for.
So, in fact, they would be freed of any more suffering. Just what the atheists are expecting. Congratulations.
Apparently you haven't read James 2:26.
What I know for sure is that you have no clue as to what the Bible says. Your views are what atheists believe, or hope for.
Ignorant: to be unaware or uninformed
THE TOPIC IS NOT WHETHER CHRIST WALKED ON THE EARTH OR NOT FOR 40 DAYS
iT IS whether He ascended to the Father and returned for the 40 days or not. I say HE ASCENDED WHEN HE SAID HE WAS
John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to My brethren, AND SAY UNTO THEM I ASCEND unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
AND I SAY THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED, SHE WENT TO THE BRETHREN AND SAID 'HE ASCENDED UNTO THE FATHER,
AND THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT HE DID, AND WHEN HE DID IT, WHICH WAS AGAIN, WHILE SHE WENT TO THE BRETHREN.
YOU HAVE TAKEN THAT SAME SCRIPTURE AND SAID, NO HE DID NOT ASCEND FOR 40 MORE DAYS. MAYBE YOU ALSO SAY SHE DID NOT GO TO THE BRETHREN AND SAY THAT. MAYBE YOU THINK HE WENT WITH HER AT THAT TIME. I DON'T KNOW. I JUST KNOW YOU SAY HE DID NOT DO WHAT HE SAID HE DID.
THAT IS THE DISPUTE. NOT HIM WALKING THE 40 DAYS ON EARTH AFTER ASCENDING.
THE TOPIC IS NOT WHETHER CHRIST WALKED ON THE EARTH OR NOT FOR 40 DAYS
iT IS whether He ascended to the Father and returned for the 40 days or not. I say HE ASCENDED WHEN HE SAID HE WAS
John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to My brethren, AND SAY UNTO THEM I ASCEND unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
AND I SAY THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED, SHE WENT TO THE BRETHREN AND SAID 'HE ASCENDED UNTO THE FATHER,
AND THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT HE DID, AND WHEN HE DID IT, WHICH WAS AGAIN, WHILE SHE WENT TO THE BRETHREN.
YOU HAVE TAKEN THAT SAME SCRIPTURE AND SAID, NO HE DID NOT ASCEND FOR 40 MORE DAYS. MAYBE YOU ALSO SAY SHE DID NOT GO TO THE BRETHREN AND SAY THAT. MAYBE YOU THINK HE WENT WITH HER AT THAT TIME. I DON'T KNOW. I JUST KNOW YOU SAY HE DID NOT DO WHAT HE SAID HE DID.
THAT IS THE DISPUTE. NOT HIM WALKING THE 40 DAYS ON EARTH AFTER ASCENDING.
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Luke 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
If they are a part of the evil who don't rise until Judgment day, they have 1000 years of the above followed by being resurrected into a spiritual body to go into the lake of fire.
John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father:
but go to My brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto My Father, and your Father; and to My God, and your God.
What do I believe?? That she went to the brethren and said unto them 'He ascends unto OUR Father and Our God"
AND THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT HE DID.
No more, no less. I don't care how any person has interpreted it. That is what is written, that is what I believe. That is the story I tell. I also believe HE RETURNED that evening
John 20:18 Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the LORD, and that he had spoken these things unto her.
John 20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
John 20:20 And when He had so said, He shewed unto them His hands and His side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the LORD.
John 20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as My Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
John 20:22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
John 20:23 Whosesoever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
The best thing about reading the Bible without a set doctrine to follow is the Bible gives you the order of events, and they are always perfect.
but go to My brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto My Father, and your Father; and to My God, and your God.
What do I believe?? That she went to the brethren and said unto them 'He ascends unto OUR Father and Our God"
AND THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT HE DID.
No more, no less. I don't care how any person has interpreted it. That is what is written, that is what I believe. That is the story I tell. I also believe HE RETURNED that evening
John 20:18 Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the LORD, and that he had spoken these things unto her.
John 20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
John 20:20 And when He had so said, He shewed unto them His hands and His side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the LORD.
John 20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as My Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
John 20:22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
John 20:23 Whosesoever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
The best thing about reading the Bible without a set doctrine to follow is the Bible gives you the order of events, and they are always perfect.
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