Does 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 Teach Jesus Will Return With Dead Saints Now With Him In Heaven?

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Rondonmon

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I do more deep word searches that you ever seen before, you meanwhile post from the J.B. Phillips Bible !!
Here are the ones I did TODAY as in since this morning


Access
4318. prosagógé ►
Strong's Concordance
prosagógé: a bringing to
Original Word: προσαγωγή, ῆς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: prosagógé
Phonetic Spelling: (pros-ag-ogue-ay')
Definition: a bringing to
Usage: approach, access, admission.
HELPS Word-studies
4318 prosagōgḗ (from 4314 /prós, "with, towards" and 71 /ágō, "come") – properly, come towards (near); have access (approach), with intimate (face-to-face) interaction (note the prefix pros). All three occasions of 4318 /prosagōgḗ ("interactive access") refer to "having audience (direct access) with God" (J. B. Lightfoot, MM).

character
1382. dokimé ►
Strong's Concordance
dokimé: (the process or result of) trial, proving, approval
Original Word: δοκιμή, ῆς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: dokimé
Phonetic Spelling: (dok-ee-may')
Definition: (the process or result of) trial, proving, approval
Usage: a trial, proof; tried, approved character.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 1382 dokimḗ (a feminine noun derived from 1384 /dókimos) – proof of genuineness ("approval, through testing"), a brand of what is "tested and true." See 1381 (dokimazō).


condemnation
2631. katakrima ►
Strong's Concordance
katakrima: penalty
Original Word: κατάκριμα, ατος, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: katakrima
Phonetic Spelling: (kat-ak'-ree-mah)
Definition: penalty
Usage: punishment following condemnation, penal servitude, penalty.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 2631 katákrima (from 2596 /katá, "down, according to," intensifying 2917 /kríma, "the results of judgment") – properly, the exact sentence of condemnation handed down after due process (establishing guilt). See 2632 (katakrinō).


Faith
4102. pistis ►
Strong's Concordance
pistis: faith, faithfulness
Original Word: πίστις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: pistis
Phonetic Spelling: (pis'-tis)
Definition: faith, faithfulness
Usage: faith, belief, trust, confidence; fidelity, faithfulness.
HELPS Word-studies
4102 pístis (from 3982/peithô, "persuade, be persuaded") – properly, persuasion (be persuaded, come to trust); faith.

Faith (4102/pistis) is always a gift from God, and never something that can be produced by people. In short, 4102/pistis ("faith") for the believer is "God's divine persuasion" – and therefore distinct from human belief (confidence), yet involving it. The Lord continuously births faith in the yielded believer so they can know what He prefers, i.e. the persuasion of His will (1 Jn 5:4).

[4102 (pistis) in secular antiquity referred to a guarantee (warranty). In Scripture, faith is God's warranty, certifying that the revelation He inbirthed will come to pass (His way).

Faith (4102/pistis) is also used collectively – of all the times God has revealed (given the persuasion of) His will, which includes the full revelation of Scripture (Jude 3). Indeed, God the Lord guarantees that all of this revelation will come to pass! Compare Mt 5:18 with 2 Tim
3:16.]


we may be glorified together
4888. sundoxazó ►
Strong's Concordance
sundoxazó: to join in approving, hence to glorify together
Original Word: συνδοξάζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: sundoxazó
Phonetic Spelling: (soon-dox-ad'-zo)
Definition: to join in approving, to glorify together
Usage: I glorify together with.
HELPS Word-studies
4888 syndoksázō (from 4862 /sýn, "closely identified with" and 1392 /doksázō, "glorify") – properly, be glorified together, emphasizing close identity with the Lord, the factor which specifically correlates to the unique glorification believers experience at His return (cf. Phil 3:11; 1 Jn 3:2, Gk text). 4888 /syndoksázō ("glorified with Christ") only occurs in Ro 8:17.

Ro 8:17: "Moreover if (1487 /ei) children, heirs also; indeed heirs of God even fellow-heirs with Christ – if indeed (1512 /eí per) we suffer with Him in order that (2443 /hína) we may also be glorified with Him (4888 /syndoksázō)."


grace
5485. charis ►
Strong's Concordance
charis: grace, kindness
Original Word: χάρις, ιτος, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: charis
Phonetic Spelling: (khar'-ece)
Definition: grace, kindness
Usage: (a) grace, as a gift or blessing brought to man by Jesus Christ, (b) favor, (c) gratitude, thanks, (d) a favor, kindness.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 5485 xáris (another feminine noun from xar-, "favor, disposed to, inclined, favorable towards, leaning towards to share benefit") – properly, grace. 5485 (xáris) is preeminently used of the Lord's favor – freely extended to give Himself away to people (because He is "always leaning toward them").

5485 /xáris ("grace") answers directly to the Hebrew (OT) term 2580 /Kaná ("grace, extension-toward"). Both refer to God freely extending Himself (His favor, grace), reaching (inclining) to people because He is disposed to bless (be near) them.

[5485 (xáris) is sometimes rendered "thanks" but the core-idea is "favor, grace" ("extension towards").]


hope
1680. elpis ►
Strong's Concordance
elpis: expectation, hope
Original Word: ἐλπίς, ίδος, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: elpis
Phonetic Spelling: (el-pece')
Definition: expectation, hope
Usage: hope, expectation, trust, confidence.
HELPS Word-studies
1680 elpís (from elpō, "to anticipate, welcome") – properly, expectation of what is sure (certain); hope.


Justified
1344. dikaioó ►
Strong's Concordance
dikaioó: to show to be righteous, declare righteous
Original Word: δικαιόω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: dikaioó
Phonetic Spelling: (dik-ah-yo'-o)
Definition: to show to be righteous, declare righteous
Usage: I make righteous, defend the cause of, plead for the righteousness (innocence) of, acquit, justify; hence: I regard as righteous.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 1344 dikaióō (from dikē, "right, judicial-approval") – properly, approved, especially in a legal, authoritative sense; to show what is right, i.e. conformed to a proper standard (i.e. "upright").

The believer is "made righteous/justified" (1344 /dikaióō) by the Lord, cleared of all charges (punishment) related to their sins. Moreover, they are justified (1344 /dikaióō, "made right, righteous") by God's grace each time they receive (obey) faith (4102 /pístis), i.e. "God's inwrought persuasion" (cf. the -oō ending which conveys "to bring to/out"). See 1343 (dikaiosynē).



justification
1345. dikaióma ►
Strong's Concordance
dikaióma: an ordinance, a sentence of acquittal or condemnation, a righteous deed
Original Word: δικαίωμα, ατος, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: dikaióma
Phonetic Spelling: (dik-ah'-yo-mah)
Definition: an ordinance, a sentence of acquittal or condemnation, a righteous deed
Usage: a thing pronounced (by God) to be righteous (just, the right); or the restoration of a criminal, a fresh chance given him; a righteous deed, an instance of perfect righteousness.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 1345 dikaíōma (a neuter noun, literally, "a judicially-approved act") – properly, an act God approves, focusing on its "result" (Zodhiates, Dict, note the -ma ending); justification (righteousness), with its results. See 1343 (dikaiosynē).

1345 /dikaíōma ("an act which is right according to the Lord") is "an act of righteousness, a concrete expression of righteousness" (Vine, Unger, White, NT, 11) which correlates to its profound (eternal) effect. For the believer, this particularly relates to their unique glorification awarded at Christ's return (cf. Rev 19:8).

[1345 (dikaíōma) is "not merely divine decisions, but righteous acts generally" (WS). The emphasis here is on the results that go with having God's approval (righteousness).]


creation
2937. ktisis ►
Strong's Concordance
ktisis: creation (the act or the product)
Original Word: κτίσις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: ktisis
Phonetic Spelling: (ktis'-is)
Definition: creation (the act or the product)
Usage: (often of the founding of a city), (a) abstr: creation, (b) concr: creation, creature, institution; always of Divine work, (c) an institution, ordinance.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 2937 ktísis – properly, creation (creature) which is founded from nothing (this is also the sense of this term from Homer on); creation out of nothing (Lat ex nihilo). See 2936 (ktizō) and 2939 /ktístēs ("the Creator") for lengthy discussion on "creation-facts."

saved
4982. sózó ►
Strong's Concordance
sózó: to save
Original Word: σῴζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: sózó
Phonetic Spelling: (sode'-zo)
Definition: to save
Usage: I save, heal, preserve, rescue.
HELPS Word-studies
4982 sṓzō (from sōs, "safe, rescued") – properly, deliver out of danger and into safety; used principally of God rescuing believers from the penalty and power of sin – and into His provisions (safety).

[4982 (sṓzō) is the root of: 4990 /sōtḗr ("Savior"), 4991 /sōtēría ("salvation") and the adjectival form, 4992 /sōtḗrion (what is "saved/rescued from destruction and brought into divine safety").]


reconciliation
2643. katallagé ►
Strong's Concordance
katallagé: reconciliation
Original Word: καταλλαγή, ῆς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: katallagé
Phonetic Spelling: (kat-al-lag-ay')
Definition: reconciliation
Usage: reconciliation, restoration to favor.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 2643 katallagḗ – reconciliation (restoration) as the resulting of Christ exactly (precisely) exchanging His righteousness (blood) for our guilt. See 2644 (katallassō).
 
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Here are the ones I did TODAY as in since this morning


1510. eimi ►
Strong's Concordance
eimi: I exist, I am
Original Word: εἰμί
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: eimi
Phonetic Spelling: (i-mee')
Definition: I exist, I am
Usage: I am, exist.
HELPS Word-studies
1510 eimí (the basic Greek verb which expresses being, i.e. "to be") – am, is. 1510 (eimí), and its counterparts, (properly) convey "straight-forward" being (existence, i.e. without explicit limits).

1510 /eimí ("is, am") – in the present tense, indicative mood – can be time-inclusive ("omnitemporal," like the Hebrew imperfect tense). Only the context indicates whether the present tense also has "timeless" implications. For example, 1510 (eimí) is aptly used in Christ's great "I am" (ego eimi . . . ) that also include His eternality (self-existent life) as our life, bread, light," etc. See Jn 7:34, 8:58, etc.

4800. suzaó ►
Strong's Concordance
suzaó: to live with
Original Word: συζάω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: suzaó
Phonetic Spelling: (sood-zah'-o)
Definition: to live with
Usage: I live together with.


4789. sugkléronomos ►
Strong's Concordance
sugkléronomos: a co-inheritor
Original Word: συγκληρονόμος, ου, ὁ, ἡ
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: sugkléronomos
Phonetic Spelling: (soong-klay-ron-om'-os)
Definition: a co-inheritor
Usage: a joint heir, participant.
HELPS Word-studies
4789 sygklēronómos (from 4862 /sýn, "closely identified with" and 2818 /klēronómos, "an heir, with inheritance determined by lot") – properly, joint-heir; used of believers sharing in the inheritance of the heavenly Father with (through) the chief heir, Jesus Christ. See 2818 (klēronomos).


629. apolutrósis ►
Strong's Concordance
apolutrósis: a release effected by payment of ransom
Original Word: ἀπολύτρωσις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: apolutrósis
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-ol-oo'-tro-sis)
Definition: a release effected by payment of ransom
Usage: release effected by payment of ransom; redemption, deliverance.
HELPS Word-studies
629 apolýtrōsis(from 575 /apó, "from" and 3084 /lytróō, "redeem") – properly, redemption – literally, "buying back from, re-purchasing (winning back) what was previously forfeited (lost)."

629 /apolýtrōsis ("redemption, re-purchase") emphasizes the distance ("safety-margin") that results between the rescued person, and what previously enslaved them. For the believer, the prefix (575 /apó) looks back to God's effective work of grace, purchasing them from the debt of sin and bringing them to their new status (being in Christ).


4198. poreuomai ►
Strong's Concordance
poreuomai: to go
Original Word: πορεύομαι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: poreuomai
Phonetic Spelling: (por-yoo'-om-ahee)
Definition: to go
Usage: I travel, journey, go, die.
HELPS Word-studies
4198 poreúomai (from poros, "passageway") – properly, to transport, moving something from one destination (port) to another; (figuratively) to go or depart, emphasizing the personal meaning which is attached to reaching the particular destination.



2090. hetoimazó ►
Strong's Concordance
hetoimazó: to prepare
Original Word: ἑτοιμάζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: hetoimazó
Phonetic Spelling: (het-oy-mad'-zo)
Definition: to prepare
Usage: I make ready, prepare.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 2090 hetoimázō – prepare, make (made) ready. See 2092 (hetoimos).to make ready, prepare: absolutely, to make the necessary preparations, get everything ready,



190. akoloutheó ►
Strong's Concordance
akoloutheó: to follow
Original Word: ἀκολουθέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: akoloutheó
Phonetic Spelling: (ak-ol-oo-theh'-o)
Definition: to follow
Usage: I accompany, attend, follow.


3686. onoma ►
Strong's Concordance
onoma: a name, authority, cause
Original Word: ὄνομα, ατος, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: onoma
Phonetic Spelling: (on'-om-ah)
Definition: a name, authority, cause
Usage: name, character, fame, reputation.
HELPS Word-studies
3686 ónoma – name; (figuratively) the manifestation or revelation of someone's character, i.e. as distinguishing them from all others. Thus "praying in the name of Christ" means to pray as directed (authorized) by Him, bringing revelation that flows out of being in His presence. "Praying in Jesus' name" therefore is not a "religious formula" just to end prayers (or get what we want)!

["According to Hebrew notions, a name is inseparable from the person to whom it belongs, i.e. it is something of his essence. Therefore, in the case of the God, it is specially sacred" (Souter).]


4137. pléroó ►
Strong's Concordance
pléroó: to make full, to complete
Original Word: πληρόω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: pléroó
Phonetic Spelling: (play-ro'-o)
Definition: to make full, to complete
Usage: I fill, fulfill, complete.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 4137 plēróō (from plērēs, "be full," see 4130 /plḗthō) – properly, fill to individual capacity, i.e. to the extent it is "meet" (appropriate). See 4130 (plēthō).


Watch
1127. grégoreó ►
Strong's Concordance
grégoreó: to be awake, to watch
Original Word: γρηγορέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: grégoreó
Phonetic Spelling: (gray-gor-yoo'-o)
Definition: to be awake, to watch
Usage: (a) I am awake (in the night), watch, (b) I am watchful, on the alert, vigilant.
HELPS Word-studies
1127 grēgoreúō – literally, "stay awake"; (figuratively) be vigilant (responsible, watchful).

NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
formed from perf. of egeiró
Definition
to be awake, to watch
NASB Translation
alert (10), awake (1), keep (1), keep watch (4), keep watching (1), keeping alert (1), stay on the alert (1), stays awake (1), wake (2).

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 1127: γρηγορέω

γρηγορέω, γρηγόρω; 1 aorist ἐγρηγόρησα; (from ἐγρήγορα, to have been roused from sleep, to be awake, perfect of ἐγείρω; cf. Lob. ad Phryn., p. 118f; Alexander Buttmann (1873) Ausf. Spr. ii., p. 158; (Winers Grammar, 26 (25); 92 (88))); to watch;
1. properly: Matthew 24:43; Matthew 26:38, 40; Mark 13:34; Mark 14:34, 37; Luke 12:37, 39 R G L Tr text WH text As to sleep is often equivalent to to die, so once, 1 Thessalonians 5:10, γρηγορέω means to live, be alive on earth.

2. Metaphorically, to watch i. e. give strict attention to, be cautious, active: — to take heed lest through remissness and indolence some destructive calamity suddenly overtake one, Matthew 24:42; Matthew 25:13; Mark 13:35,(37); Revelation 16:15; or lest one be led to forsake Christ, Matthew 26:41; Mark 14:38; or lest one fall into sin, 1 Thessalonians 5:6; 1 Corinthians 16:13; 1 Peter 5:8; Revelation 3:2f; or be corrupted by errors, Acts 20:31; ἐν τίνι, to be watchful in, employ the most punctilious care in a thing: Colossians 4:2.


Thief
2812. kleptés ►
Strong's Concordance
kleptés: a thief
Original Word: κλέπτης, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: kleptés
Phonetic Spelling: (klep'-tace)
Definition: a thief
Usage: a thief.
HELPS Word-studies
2812 kléptēs – a thief who steals by stealth (in secret), rather than in the open with violence (WS, 591).
 
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Rondonmon

Senior Member
May 13, 2016
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I went to check out the qbible and all I can say is Thank you but I am way to old to figure that out.
No, you just hold your mouse cursor over the NUMBER, its easy, I am 57 also.

I have done these studies for years, I don't try to just use them to prove a point, I do my exegesis with them, and thus I gain knowledge. Fir instance, go look at Rev. 1:1 the word SHORTLY actually means in a SHORT BURST OF TIME, as in Jesus is saying at a future point in time (EN which is one of the Geek words used for SHORTLY) I will (TACHOS think English word Tachometer) COME IN HASTE....or in the Old English(e) I will come SHORTLY (in a quick time frame as in BOOM in here), or SPEEDILY, all of these references are in the Strongs. Its not I will come shortly, but I will come IN HASTE when sent.

EN & TACHOS are used and the KJV translators came up with one word SHORTLY, which is just not correct, especially since its not the same SHIRTLY as the Old English meant.

EN means in a FIXED POSITION, in Place, Time or State, meaning at a future point in TIME, when the Father sends me (Jesus knows not the day nor hour remember) I will come IN HASTE when sent of course.

So, these are really easy, just ignore the Hebrew, its just there for the real scholars I guess. The New Testament one has only English.
 

Evmur

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Feb 28, 2021
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Peter says when Jesus comes back in glory and the 1,000 years begin, the Earth is going to look like Tokyo after Godzilla got done with it....................or Haiti:

mmm .... When the Jews [apart from Paul] speak about Jesu's return they are speaking about His return to judge, Paul only speaks about His coming to gather the saints at the rapture "things [quoth Peter] which be hard to understand"

Only Paul understood that the Jews were to be diminished, laid aside in things of God for a protracted period. This is the famous Parenthesis or gap in prophecy when the church would be established among the nations, the times of the Gentiles. The Jews simply could not get their heads around this. Paul had it revealed to him.

So there is the Jewish understanding of Christ's return [which you believe] and there is Paul's understanding. Only Paul taught the rapture.

Both scenarios are correct but there is a 1, 000 year gap between Paul and the Jews.
 
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FreeGrace2 said:
In order for the rich man to SEE Abraham, he had to be WHERE Abraham was.
You can see a long ways especially when not bound by the human eye.
Not good enough. They were close enough to SPEAK TO EACH OTHER. Why do you ignore that FACT?

I said:
"So what if there was a gulf between them, and "afar off", which neither YOU nor I have any idea the distance."
lol, at least I know it's "afar" while you think it's the same place.
Just keep your fantasies. In addition to being able to SPEAK TO EACH OTHER, the rich man wanted Lazarus to cool his tongue. So they weren't so far far away.

Then why make it difficult? A gulf separating them and "afar" means the two places aren't even close.
In your mind only. They spoke to each other and one wanted Laz to come to him. Not that far apart.

The text disagrees.
No. Rather, you disagree with the text.
 

lamad

Well-known member
Apr 14, 2021
1,293
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No, you just hold your mouse cursor over the NUMBER, its easy, I am 57 also.

I have done these studies for years, I don't try to just use them to prove a point, I do my exegesis with them, and thus I gain knowledge. Fir instance, go look at Rev. 1:1 the word SHORTLY actually means in a SHORT BURST OF TIME, as in Jesus is saying at a future point in time (EN which is one of the Geek words used for SHORTLY) I will (TACHOS think English word Tachometer) COME IN HASTE....or in the Old English(e) I will come SHORTLY (in a quick time frame as in BOOM in here), or SPEEDILY, all of these references are in the Strongs. Its not I will come shortly, but I will come IN HASTE when sent.

EN & TACHOS are used and the KJV translators came up with one word SHORTLY, which is just not correct, especially since its not the same SHIRTLY as the Old English meant.

EN means in a FIXED POSITION, in Place, Time or State, meaning at a future point in TIME, when the Father sends me (Jesus knows not the day nor hour remember) I will come IN HASTE when sent of course.

So, these are really easy, just ignore the Hebrew, its just there for the real scholars I guess. The New Testament one has only English.
Are you saying the real meaning is, , "when the father tells Me to go, I will then come very swiftly."?
 
Dec 15, 2021
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No, you just hold your mouse cursor over the NUMBER, its easy, I am 57 also.
Thank you for the reply. I did do that but it is the LOOK of the page that really is hard for me. It just has too much too close and is too cluttered for my eyes. OR I just don't like it. I will admit I did like just hovering over 1961 and 8414 and the way the definitions were short clear and concise but still. I may still use it as another source and may come to like it so thank you for sharing.
 
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So there is the Jewish understanding of Christ's return [which you believe] and there is Paul's understanding. Only Paul taught the rapture.
Paul taught against 'rapture' more than anyone. When the first letter he wrote was being MISUNDERSTOOD, he quickly wrote the second. When you read the second letter it doesn't have much but OTHER THAN the correction of the first. It has an introduction a closing, BUT it is the guts of the 2nd letter show POSITIVELY WHAT TRUTHS THE FIRST LETTER IS GIVING US.

3 times Paul says NOT UNTIL AFTER....not until AFTER the falling away and the man revealed, not until AFTER the working with lying signs and wonders, AND THEN CHRIST will consume and destroy with the BRIGHTNESS of His coming.


2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except (1) there come a falling away first and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8 And then (2) shall that Wicked be revealed whom the Lord shall consume with the Spirit of His mouth and shall destroy with the BRIGHTNESS of His coming:

9 Even him, (3) whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

WHAT HAPPENS IF SOMEONE REFUSES TO BELIEVE WHAT IS WRITTEN RIGHT HERE and instead DEVISES all sorts of fables and/or doctrines and/or theories THAT TRY TO CHANGE this TRUTH into a lie?

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie

What kind of lie would they believe?


A lie like
Christ positively will be returning and His coming will absolutely be previous to Satan being revealed and point in fact is it is explicitly for the specific purpose of gathering to the Lord?

NOW THAT WOULD TAKE A STRONG DELUSION TO BELIEVE AFTER READING THIS LETTER.

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth

14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace

17 Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.
 

ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
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FreeGrace2 said:
In order for the rich man to SEE Abraham, he had to be WHERE Abraham was.

Not good enough. They were close enough to SPEAK TO EACH OTHER. Why do you ignore that FACT?
They didn't have mouths! This is a spiritual form of communication. Great distances don't affect the seeing without eyes or speaking without mouths or hearing without ears. The FACT here is Hades is in one place and the bosom was "afar" away and one could not travel from the one place to the other.
 
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FreeGrace2 said:
In order for the rich man to SEE Abraham, he had to be WHERE Abraham was.

Not good enough. They were close enough to SPEAK TO EACH OTHER. Why do you ignore that FACT?
They didn't have mouths!
Are you going to argue with Jesus, who gave us the account. If Jesus SAID they conversed with each other, they DID. If you don't accept that, then you are just not teachable. Your eyes and ears are too closed.

This is a spiritual form of communication.
I suppose you were there? You make claims as if you are some kind of expert in these things. Instead of just accepting ON FAITH what Jesus told us. But, nooooo. Not you. You've got to try to tear apart what Jesus said.

Great distances don't affect the seeing without eyes or speaking without mouths or hearing without ears. The FACT here is Hades is in one place and the bosom was "afar" away and one could not travel from the one place to the other.
OK. Then what Jesus told us was such a ridiculous and unbelievable account that would be impossible to occur that we should just ignore what He said, or even reject it as fallacy.

Rather, I will reject your obvious rejection of truth from the mouth of Jesus. If you want to stick with your own self-appointed expert in afterlife issues go right ahead.
 

Rondonmon

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Are you saying the real meaning is, , "when the father tells Me to go, I will then come very swiftly."?
You can use any of those words you like, TACHOS has about 5 meanings, and are OK as log as you now the SHORTLY they used meant in a short time burst, not in a short time, like in tomorrow or next week or even in 10 years;

Tachos simply means Speedily, in Haste, Quickly, as in Zoom, zoom, zoom. EN as I stated is A primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), so in essence Jesus is pointing to a point in time when he will return IN HASTE, now it is not stated but WE KNOW when that time will be via our biblical studies, and it will of course be in a day and hour when the Father sends him.
 

ewq1938

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Are you going to argue with Jesus, who gave us the account. If Jesus SAID they conversed with each other, they DID. If you don't accept that, then you are just not teachable. Your eyes and ears are too closed.
And you are misrepresenting me. I never said they didn't speak. I said they weren't in the same place and there is a "afar" distance. It's YOU that isn't accepting what the passage says. Never is the bosom in Hades.


I suppose you were there? You make claims as if you are some kind of expert in these things. Instead of just accepting ON FAITH what Jesus told us. But, nooooo. Not you. You've got to try to tear apart what Jesus said.


I suppose YOU were there? YOU make claims as if you are some kind of expert in these things. Instead of just accepting ON FAITH what Jesus told us. But, nooooo. Not YOU. YOU'VE got to try to tear apart what Jesus said.
 
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FreeGrace2 said:
Are you going to argue with Jesus, who gave us the account. If Jesus SAID they conversed with each other, they DID. If you don't accept that, then you are just not teachable. Your eyes and ears are too closed.
And you are misrepresenting me. I never said they didn't speak.
Please don't play games. This is exactly what you said:
ewq1938 said: They didn't have mouths!

This is a clear insinuation that they wouldn't be able to communicate. Your defensive comment about "spiritual communication" is facetious. You have no idea. Only guesses.

I said they weren't in the same place and there is a "afar" distance. It's YOU that isn't accepting what the passage says. Never is the bosom in Hades.
You've never been there. Yet here you are, making all these claims about the place.

Jesus SAID the rich man and Abraham had a conversation. And the rich man requested that Abraham send Laz over to cool his tongue.

If they were so far apart that they weren't in the same place, that couldn't have occurred. So again, your argument is with Jesus, who SAID these things. It's YOU who is rejecting what Jesus said. Unbelievable.

I accept Jesus' account as literal. You don't. But you have NO idea what you are talking about. All you have is your biases, assumptions, presumptions, and guesses.

I have the very words of Jesus.

I'm sticking with what Jesus said. Not what you are assuming/presuming'guessing.
 

ewq1938

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Rev 1:1 The RevelationG602 of JesusG2424 Christ,G5547 whichG3739 GodG2316 gaveG1325 unto him,G846 to shewG1166 unto hisG848 servantsG1401 things whichG3739 must G1163 shortly G1722 G5034 come to pass;G1096 andG2532 he sentG649 and signifiedG4591 it byG1223 hisG848 angelG32 unto hisG848 servantG1401 John:G2491

shortly G1722 G5034

G1722 is a preposition and G5034 is the word meaning shortly:

G5034
ta´???
tachos
takh'-os
From the same as G5036; a brief space (of time), that is, (with G1722 prefixed) in haste: - + quickly, + shortly, + speedily.

So with the preposition attached it means a "brief space of time" as in "in haste" meaning how fast Christ comes as far as speed, not a soon time but when it happens, it happens very quickly in a short amount of time (think microseconds).



So this is what it is literally saying:

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must IN A TWINKLING OF AN EYE come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

That matches the idea of Christ's return being like a flash of lightning which denotes how fast the event is not that it will happen soon as in the near future:


Mat_24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Lightning was literally the fastest thing man knew of and could see back in those days!


Rev 11 and 19 both speak of or mention the 7th trump second coming yet virtually no one claims that has already happened.

Rev_22:6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.

This includes the second coming and judgment day and the eternity yet none of those things have yet happened. Misunderstanding what "shortly" actually means is the issue.

Gill:

to show unto his servant things which must shortly come to pass: the Arabic version adds, "in future ages"; things that were to be hereafter, the accomplishment of which was necessary, because of the certain and unalterable decree of God, the good of his people, and his own glory; and these were to come to pass quickly, in a very little time; not that they would all be fulfilled in a short space of time, for there are some things not fulfilled yet, though it is nineteen hundred years ago and more, since this revelation was made; and we are sure there are some things that will not be accomplished till a thousand years hence, and more, for the millennium is not yet begun; and after that is ended, there is to be a second resurrection, and a destruction of the Gog and Magog army; but the sense is, that these things should very quickly begin to be fulfilled, and from thenceforward go on fulfilling till all were accomplished.



Rev 22:7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Did the second coming already happen? Or is Jesus speaking of how suddenly he would come when it was time to return?


Let's look at it if a very short amount of time was intended:

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must VERY SOON come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:


"to shew unto his servants"

This means the 7 letters to the even churches would have to be delivered and read. How "soon" do you think that could have even been done? John had to write Revelation, then re-write it 7 times which would take a lot of time, then mail the letters from prison which could take an unknown amount of time for prison staff to do this, then there is the time boats would take, and then on land how long it takes for animals or men to travel. There's nothing about "soon" involved in showing servants these things and those things happening.

In context we should understand that the things described would happen "in haste" at the appropriate time, which could be centuries away. Almost nothing in Revelation has happened yet. It's like saying, "When I sound the alarm, move very quickly to the nearest exit." Nothing there implies the alarm would sound very soon but whenever it did, then move fast!

We are waiting for the 6th trump because that is when the world will be ruled by one man claiming to be God. We are also then waiting for the 7th trump which is when Jesus returns in a very visible way.
 

ewq1938

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Please don't play games. This is exactly what you said:
ewq1938 said: They didn't have mouths!

No, I said, "They didn't have mouths! This is a spiritual form of communication." It is dishonest and deceptive to misrepresent what someone has said. Due to that immature behavior I won't bother to read anymore of this post.
 
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FreeGrace2 said:
Please don't play games. This is exactly what you said:
ewq1938 said: They didn't have mouths!
No, I said, "They didn't have mouths!
See? I was RIGHT. You DID say that. Why in the world would you deny it?

This is a spiritual form of communication."
And I also acknowledged that bit of silliness. You are just making up a lot of stuff. Where do you get your ideas from, since the Bible doesn't say anything about "a spiritual form of communication".

It is dishonest and deceptive to misrepresent what someone has said.
Oh, stop it already.

This is what I continued to say in that post:
"This is a clear insinuation that they wouldn't be able to communicate. Your defensive comment about "spiritual communication" is facetious. You have no idea. Only guesses."

So I also addressed the silly and made up comment about "spiritual communication".

Due to that immature behavior I won't bother to read anymore of this post.
There you go. You DO what you accuse me of. How immature is that? Very.

You've been busted, so you might as well give up and not post anymore.
 

Evmur

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Paul taught against 'rapture' more than anyone. When the first letter he wrote was being MISUNDERSTOOD, he quickly wrote the second. When you read the second letter it doesn't have much but OTHER THAN the correction of the first. It has an introduction a closing, BUT it is the guts of the 2nd letter show POSITIVELY WHAT TRUTHS THE FIRST LETTER IS GIVING US.

3 times Paul says NOT UNTIL AFTER....not until AFTER the falling away and the man revealed, not until AFTER the working with lying signs and wonders, AND THEN CHRIST will consume and destroy with the BRIGHTNESS of His coming.


2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except (1) there come a falling away first and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8 And then (2) shall that Wicked be revealed whom the Lord shall consume with the Spirit of His mouth and shall destroy with the BRIGHTNESS of His coming:

9 Even him, (3) whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

WHAT HAPPENS IF SOMEONE REFUSES TO BELIEVE WHAT IS WRITTEN RIGHT HERE and instead DEVISES all sorts of fables and/or doctrines and/or theories THAT TRY TO CHANGE this TRUTH into a lie?

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie

What kind of lie would they believe?

A lie like
Christ positively will be returning and His coming will absolutely be previous to Satan being revealed and point in fact is it is explicitly for the specific purpose of gathering to the Lord?

NOW THAT WOULD TAKE A STRONG DELUSION TO BELIEVE AFTER READING THIS LETTER.

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth

14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace

17 Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.
Our gathering to meet the Lord will be in the clouds, the dead will rise first then we which be alive and remain will be caught up together with them to meet the Lord in the air. This is the Rapture as taught by Paul.

What YOU are opposed to is a pre-tribulation rapture, so am I, Jesus cannot come at any moment as they suppose, first there comes the rebellion and Antichrist is revealed.

What 2nd Thess corrects is the doctrine that the resurrection of the just had already taken place and so all who had died in the Lord had missed it.
 
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Our gathering to meet the Lord will be in the clouds, the dead will rise first then we which be alive and remain will be caught up together with them to meet the Lord in the air. This is the Rapture as taught by Paul.
If this is all that is meant, then good. But, most people, who hear the word "rapture" picture resurrected and raptured believers GOING TO HEAVEN. That is not true.

What YOU are opposed to is a pre-tribulation rapture, so am I, Jesus cannot come at any moment as they suppose, first there comes the rebellion and Antichrist is revealed.
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