Robert Morris says Jonathan had a "Jezebel spirit"
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Are you saying the Apostle Paul had demons? He was clear about his sinful nature.
That is why it is important to be clear on this subject. Deliverance proponents want to promote their agenda and unsuspecing babes in Christ are sucked into the false doctrine thinking if they get delivered of demons they will stop sinning. Well, that would nice. However, we have a sinful nature independent of demonic involvement.
Did you notice, Paul did not mention demons? Did he forget?
So you just made point blank statement. Where sin dwells, demons can dwell. Can you show me any specific language in the the New Testament that mirrors your statement?
Let me present a principle to you,
We must pay the most careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away.
Hebrew 2:1
We are not admonished to pay attention to what we have not heard. Instead to what we have heard. If you can provide a scripture argument to support your position, I will pay attention because we are commanded to. If you can’t, you are trying to persuade me to pay attention to what we have not heard. Why would you do that?
You quoted Paul regarding our sinful nature, I heard that. But he didn't mention demons--there is nothing to hear, here.
Sister, I'm not trying to beat you up here, but if you don't know how we acquired a sinful nature, I would suggest getting in a bible study that is going over basic Christian doctrine. You need the milk of the Word.
No, our sinful nature is NOT independent of demonic involvement….However, demons cannot dwell in our new nature but, understand it is like Isaac and Ishmael living together…we have to cast out the bond woman -crucify our Flesh.
The more we renew our minds with the Word of God and Holy Spirit of God we learn TRUTH and are able to make right choices according to God’s perfect Will thereby saying NO to our Flesh which crucified it and we become more and more filled with God’s Light - Jesus Christ till eventually it is no longer us that live but Christ in us and we live in Christ- there is no more darkness and now demons have no place in us for Christ is ALL in ALL.
Please know, it’s a
P…R…O…C…E…S…S…
My first post to you was respectful. Your first post to me was personally disparaging. Now you want to pull the righteous card and blame me for starting a battle. It ain't gonna fly.
https://digitalcommons.georgefox.ed...r=&httpsredir=1&article=1039&context=gscp_fac
The article is balanced. It addresses both those who claim that Christians cannot have a demon and those who disagree. They also have some helpful definitions.
Christians often wonder why they can't break free of a problem or why they react in ways that are contrary to who they are. "You are not yourself today............" Exactly. Often, they need deliverance.
Another issue is that Christians can bring evil spirits with them from before they are saved. I had several that needed to be dealt with. Deliverance is not automatic.
Sister, with all due respect, you are just making things up. I'm going on 50 years of studying the scripture, and I have never heard anyone claim, "No, our sinful nature is not independent of demonic involvement." Perhaps you read that in a book, maybe heard someone say that, but there is not a shred up biblical support of your claim.
I think I am at the point with you where I understand you don't care what the scripture actually says if it conflicts with what you want to believe. In view of that, I will bow out this discussion because it is complete nonsense. You take care. God bless you.
I'm not playing the righteous card. I'm just pointing out you resorted to calling names when I asked to make a biblical case. Why does that upset you?
Brother, no offense but I have read articles, books, watched presentations etc. I know all the arguments. I'm honestly not trying to offend you but when ever I insist someone present a biblical argument, I'm always asked to read an article. Why is it so difficult for proponents of this doctrine to make a biblical case? So far, you haven't indicated you are emotionally invested, but whenever I ask for biblical examples, most people freak out. That is not proof they are wrong in itself, but it is an indicator of their frustration with their inability to make a cogent argument.
Not everything is provable by scriptural quotations. I can't prove to you what God said to me during my prayer time, but it is no less real than the words on the page.
The Bible does not explain every possible situation that Christians will face. We need the Holy Spirit's guidance and we need to treat what we experience as real, and look to the Bible for guiding principles and examples, not necessarily the specific answer for every case.
Perhaps you prefer the narrow, restrictive view of Scripture, the way Church of Christ folks do with regard to musical instruments. It's a flawed view of Scripture, and you aren't going to manipulate people into supporting it.
Lumping every ministry into one category is simply wrong. Sometimes leaders get it wrong. That does not invalidate everything that they say. We'd not be reading about the Apostle Peter if that was the case. And anyone who judges others more harshly than they judge themselves is a hypocrite.
There are some who are so far from the truth that they are heretics. Others have an excessive and unbalanced view of particular teachings. I include those who are obsessed with prosperity in this. Others preach poverty as a good thing (not so common these days). Some say that Christians should all be healed instantly or there is something wrong with their faith. Others deny that miraculous healing is for today.
Individual Christians are responsible for their own spiritual state. Sure it is good to learn from others. But we all need to "test everything and hold fast to what is good."
I've listened to Robert Morris. I don't agree with him on everything, but he is reasonably sound. He was a great help to a woman I know who was much troubled by evil spirits.
There are many that I consider promoting a false gospel. I refuse to listen to those people. Some start of OK and end up in deception. I've been saved 50 years and I seen a lot. Even Derek Prince, who was a truly great teacher, went down a false track for a while. He had the grace to confess and apologise.
Often, other people have put together research, study and reasoning that is superior to my own. I've learned a great deal from others. I don't see much point in spending hours putting together an article that someone else has done just as well or better.
If we were considering beginning a church softball team for fun and maybe even as an outreach, then it would be reasonable to suggest if it doesn’t contradict Scripture, then a reasonable person should be open to it. The Scripture doesn’t directly speak about participating in sporting events, therefore indeed a reasonable person should be open to it. However, we are not talking about sports or eating sushi or going to movies. We are talking about whether Christians—inhabited by the Holy Spirit—can be demon possessed. The Bible has much to say about possession as compared to softball teams. Therefore, I assert, a reasonable person should make every effort to ensure they are involved with the truth, and frankly you are not even attempting to make a biblical argument. I consider that unreasonably cavalier. You are attempting to engage in the supernatural while now admitting the Scripture does not address what you are doing. That is not reasonable—it is reckless.
The problem is your position does contradict the scripture,
You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world.
I John 4:4
Now, I know you are going to ignore this very to the point passage. However, there is no getting around this very clear language. The Holy Spirit is in us, and He is greater than he that is not in us.
Just exactly how would you like the Lord to express this to where you would accept His Word?
Regarding your narrow, restrictive comments I say this...yawn.
The problem is your position does contradict the scripture,
You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world.
I John 4:4
Now, I know you are going to ignore this very to the point passage. However, there is no getting around this very clear language. The Holy Spirit is in us, and He is greater than he that is not in us.
Just exactly how would you like the Lord to express this to where you would accept His Word?
Regarding your narrow, restrictive comments I say this...yawn.
Hey I have been ministered to by Robert Morris at times. And I agree, he is reasonable sound. But he is waaaay out over his skis on this subject. He is close to James Robertson who I adore but he holds the same position and he is wrong. I still support his water well program enthusiastically by the way, and have corresponded with them many times. However, Robert Morris becomes completed disingenuous when teaching on the demon thing, expressing ridiculous arguments and I have no stomach for it.
You are correct about Dereck Prince and I marveled at his repentance, but then he fell into another false doctrine regarding curse deliverance. I believe he is in heaven but he taught a lot of really bad stuff.
Fair enough, I hear you, and thanks for not getting offended. Its just that I have put a lot of research on this related subjects and honestly I get to point to where I can't bear to read some of the nonsense.