Does 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 Teach Jesus Will Return With Dead Saints Now With Him In Heaven?

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
I believe that Adam was created tripart, or trichotomous, as was the woman. When they rebelled, their human spirits died "on that day" and their bodies began the slow process of physical death.

So, all of their progeny were born dichotomous, body and soul, with a dead human spirit. That's what makes people spiritually dead. Their spirit is dead.

So Christ was born with a dead spirit?

Wow. Just wow. Are you for real? What kind of ridiculous question is this? Was Jesus a product of Joseph? Of course not. We call it a "virgin birth". Apparently you have no diea what all that means. It means Jesus NEVER received a fallen human nature, which comes through Adam, not Eve. Through the Holy Spirit, Jesus had a sinless human nature.

Jesus is the Unique Person of the universe. Equally God and man.

This whole thing is nonsense. Everyone has a living body, soul and spirit at birth.

Are you calling God a LIAR then?

Gen 2:17 - but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."

Are you actually calling God LIAR when He warned Adam about eating of the forbidden fruit?? Do you not believe Scripture?

If you don't think God lies, then just what DID DIE "in the day" that Adam ate the fruit?

Being spiritually dead does not mean the spirit in you is dead. It just doesn't have the spiritual life being born again provides.

Apparently you haven't thought any or much of this through very well then.

When a person is said to be regenerated, what exactly is being RE-generated? Do you know?

 

[ewq1938]

Wow. Just wow. Are you for real? What kind of ridiculous question is this? Was Jesus a product of Joseph?

No, but he was related to Mary who was related to Adam.

It means Jesus NEVER received a fallen human nature, which comes through Adam, not Eve.

There is no such thing that is transferred from parent to children. We have a fallen nature because each person falls into sin. No one is born with Adam's sin.

 

[kleronomos]

Was Jesus justifying David's decision to violate the temple ordinances.......or was He pointing out the hypocrisy of the Jews by showing them they had no problem with what David did, but had nothing but shade to throw on Jesus, the "One greater than the temple"?

Pretty obvious He was pointing out their hypocrisy, not telling us that He was OK with David breaking the very rules He told Moses and company to observe diligently. Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever, bro.

It isn't about the letter of the law. It's all about doing right and doing it from a place of love. That is what the whole thing is about. The Jews never came to understand that. WE SHOULD, having been given the Holy Spirit. But man is all about being RIGHT, not about being righteous. It's too bad. More important to get the last word out, not the lasting truth.

Every question they asked of Jesus was a set up of some sort, to see if they could get the upper hand, get something over on Him. All He was doing was just trying to help them out.

Those claiming to be Jews at the time, the synagogue of Satan, the ones there fulfilling the 1st prophecy, not even of the bloodline of Christ but mostly just assigned like were there to do nothing else. Hence the secret. So there is more than one or two things pretty obvious...

So, you're right. It is pretty obvious from that point of view but doesn't change anything just the same.

 

[LactoseIntolerant]

It's a bit long, but half of it is explaining what a Chiasm is. If you skip down to the verse in the title, it's easy to chew on.

Thanks, will do.

 

[kleronomos]

Look, bro, my rebuttals aren't that hard to understand. You said at death the Spirit "returns" to God but not necessarily up, so I showed you that the Spirit DOES GO UP and doensn't meander around like some loitering poltergeist at a 7-11.

Therefore, the Spirit goes up, the Soul "was not left down in hell, WHICH PROVES THE SOUL AND SPIRIT AIN'T THE SAME THING BECAUSE THE ONE GOES UP AND THE OTHER DOWN, CAPICE, OR DO I NEED TO SAY IT IN YOUR MOTHER TONGUE?

Are you saying the bible always refers to the spirit as one specific thing and the soul as a different specific thing and the words are never used in any other context?

 

[Phoneman-777]

It isn't about the letter of the law. It's all about doing right and doing it from a place of love. That is what the whole thing is about. The Jews never came to understand that. WE SHOULD, having been given the Holy Spirit. But man is all about being RIGHT, not about being righteous. It's too bad. More important to get the last word out, not the lasting truth.

Every question they asked of Jesus was a set up of some sort, to see if they could get the upper hand, get something over on Him. All He was doing was just trying to help them out.

Those claiming to be Jews at the time, the synagogue of Satan, the ones there fulfilling the 1st prophecy, not even of the bloodline of Christ but mostly just assigned like were there to do nothing else. Hence the secret. So there is more than one or two things pretty obvious...

So, you're right. It is pretty obvious from that point of view but doesn't change anything just the same.

If you're keeping the Spirit of the law, you're AUTOMATICALLY keepign the letter. Think about it: can a man murder someone withouth hating him? Can a man commit adultery with his neighbor's wife without lusting after her?

What Paul means by "the letter killeth" is that if you're trying to keep the letter to be saved, you're killing yourself, but if you love God and your neighbor, keeping the letter is a breeze.

 

[Phoneman-777]

Are you saying the bible always refers to the spirit as one specific thing and the soul as a different specific thing and the words are never used in any other context?

I'm saying the Bible NEVER uses the Spirit and the Soul interchangeably when the Spirit refers to the "Breath of Life" aka "life giving principle" of God, and the Soul refers to the "living being" which is the whole comprised of the two parts, body and Breath of life.

Immortal Soul doctrine survives only because people refuse to make the Biblical distinction between the two. THEY ARE NOT THE SAME, according to Genesis 2:7 KJV.

Hebrews 4:12 plainly says the two can be divided the one from the other. If there were the same thing, that would not be possbile.

 

[Phoneman-777]

No, but he was related to Mary who was related to Adam.



There is no such thing that is transferred from parent to children. We have a fallen nature because each person falls into sin. No one is born with Adam's sin.

Bro, don't waste your time on this one. You'll end up needing drywall work with all the head banging.

 

[Evmur]

Where's that in Scripture?

Certainly not "all Israel shall be saved" - "Israel" means those who overcome in Christ, which ain't a bunch of Semites throwing what would amount to nothing more than an elaborate, high society BBQ.

the mouth of every prophet since there was a nation says Israel end will be glorious including Paul who says if their casting away has brought blessing to the Gentiles what will their acceptance be but life from the dead.

Paul says they were cast away but they will be accepted
they were diminished but they will attain to full inclusion
All Israel will be saved.

Zechariah says "they shall look upon Him whom they have pierced and mourn for Him as for a first born and God will pour our a spirit of grace and supplication upon the nation of Israel and they seek Him every family, the men separate from the women."

God deals with Israel as a nation, His covenant is with the nation. They fell as a nation and they shall be restored as a nation.

 

[ewq1938]

God deals with Israel as a nation, His covenant is with the nation. They fell as a nation and they shall be restored as a nation.

And what percentage of them will or have died rejecting Christ and go to hell? 99 percent?

 

[Evmur]

And what percentage of them will or have died rejecting Christ and go to hell? 99 percent?

God has set aside a day for judgement and One who will judge.

 

[Evmur]

No, but he was related to Mary who was related to Adam.



There is no such thing that is transferred from parent to children. We have a fallen nature because each person falls into sin. No one is born with Adam's sin.

we all are born with Adam's fallen nature, only Christ was without the sin nature.

 

[ewq1938]

we all are born with Adam's fallen nature

No, no one was born with Adam's fallen nature. We each sin, and fall our own natures.

 

[ewq1938]

God has set aside a day for judgement and One who will judge.

Known as side stepping the issue. Side step this as well. I won't be surprised.

 

[Evmur]

Known as side stepping the issue. Side step this as well. I won't be surprised.

The sidestep is I do not read scripture the same way that you do.

 

[Phoneman-777]

the mouth of every prophet since there was a nation says Israel end will be glorious including Paul who says if their casting away has brought blessing to the Gentiles what will their acceptance be but life from the dead.

Paul says they were cast away but they will be accepted
they were diminished but they will attain to full inclusion
All Israel will be saved.

Zechariah says "they shall look upon Him whom they have pierced and mourn for Him as for a first born and God will pour our a spirit of grace and supplication upon the nation of Israel and they seek Him every family, the men separate from the women."

God deals with Israel as a nation, His covenant is with the nation. They fell as a nation and they shall be restored as a nation.

The nation of Israel blew it - God's promises are CONDITIONAL but I can't expect people who think they can withdraw their surrender to Jesus and yet still go to heaven to understand that.

 

[kleronomos]

If you're keeping the Spirit of the law, you're AUTOMATICALLY keepign the letter. Think about it: can a man murder someone withouth hating him? Can a man commit adultery with his neighbor's wife without lusting after her?

What Paul means by "the letter killeth" is that if you're trying to keep the letter to be saved, you're killing yourself, but if you love God and your neighbor, keeping the letter is a breeze.

I do understand your position on this. I see what you believe. A perfect example of milk remaining milk.

 

[kleronomos]

I'm saying the Bible NEVER uses the Spirit and the Soul interchangeably when the Spirit refers to the "Breath of Life" aka "life giving principle" of God, and the Soul refers to the "living being" which is the whole comprised of the two parts, body and Breath of life.

Immortal Soul doctrine survives only because people refuse to make the Biblical distinction between the two. THEY ARE NOT THE SAME, according to Genesis 2:7 KJV.

Hebrews 4:12 plainly says the two can be divided the one from the other. If there were the same thing, that would not be possbile.

1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

How does this change take place according to your Gen2:7 belief?



1 Corinthians 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

1 Corinthians 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

DO THE SPIRIT AND SOUL DIE WHEN THE FIRST BODY DIES?

 

[FreeGrace2]

There is no such thing that is transferred from parent to children. We have a fallen nature because each person falls into sin. No one is born with Adam's sin.

Let's see what the Bible says about this.

Romans 5-
12 - Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—
14 - Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.
15 - Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.
16 - Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, (this means condemnatio to everyone) but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.
17 - For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!
18 - Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.

I think passage is very clear and straightforward. We are sinners BECAUSE of Adam.

You are free to make up your own mind.

 

[FreeGrace2]

No, no one was born with Adam's fallen nature. We each sin, and fall our own natures.

We sin BECAUSE of the inherited fallen nature from Adam.

Romans 5:12-18 proves it.