Does 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 Teach Jesus Will Return With Dead Saints Now With Him In Heaven?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

kleronomos

Active member
Dec 15, 2021
261
45
28
We who are raised in the first resurrection are passed clear over from this judgement.
What about OUR REWARDS?
No one has shown more than 1 resurrection or a "rapture" where the beilevers are taken to heaven.

NO ONE IS EVER TAKEN TO HEAVEN unless they die. (save Enoch, Elijah and Moses) HEAVEN IS COMING HERE.

The alive and remaining are changed and gathered together with those who RETURNED with Christ, and Christ is coming to RULE as KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS on the throne of David, here on earth where the nations can come and worship.


If you allow yourself to get stuck to a 'milk' teaching, a 'meat' teaching will never be SEEN. I HAVE read it the way you do and it makes no sense and I will show you EXACTLY WHY.


Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

We know that that goes with this
2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the Brightness of His coming
9 Even Him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,




Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.

This is the first resurrection.

WHO IS A PART OF THE FIRST RESURRECTION?

1) THE SOULS OF THOSE WHO WERE BEHEADED FOR THE WITNESS OF JESUS
2) THE SOULS OF THOSE WHO WERE BEHEADED FOR THE WORD OF GOD
3) THE SOULS OF THOSE WHO HAD NOT WORSHIPPED THE BEAST
4) THE SOULS OF THOSE WHO HAD NOT WORSHIPPED HIS IMAGE
5) THE SOULS OF THOSE WHO HAD NOT RECEIVED HIS MARK UPON THEIR FOREHEAD, OR IN THEIR HANDS

THE FIRST 2 COME BEFORE THE WORSHIP OF THE BEAST, SO THEY COVER THROUGH OUT TIME. ARE THESE THE ONLY ONES OF A FIRST RESURRECTION? No, just the ones listed here.


Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection


THIS DOES NOT SAY 'A RESURRECTION DAY' IT SAYS FIRST RESURRECTION. It is not a 'day' it is an occurrence.

Jesus went to prepare a place for us in which he shall come for us, receive us to Himself and it is the only way to come to the Father.

Death has been defeated and so when the death of the flesh happens the sin of Adam is done but the death that comes from being in sin has been defeated and so we can't be held and so we rise - a first resurrection.

Those who HAVE NOT received the gift of Salvation will 'rise' when Christ returns BUT NOT TO IMMORTALITY, just to an incorruptible body (except in the lake of fire). BECAUSE they did not receive the gift of Salvation, did not receive immortality when they rose, AND THEY MAY STILL END UP IN THE LAKE OF FIRE, they are NOT of the first resurrection and DEATH, the second death may very well come upon them.


1) HAVING RECEIVED THE GIFT OF SALVATION - WE RISE UP TO IMMORTALITY - in SPIRITUAL BODY. WE NEVER, EVER, EVER, WILL NEED 'TO RISE AGAIN' BECAUSE DEATH WILL NEVER HAPPEN TO US AGAIN. THAT IS A FIRST RESURRECTION.

2) THOSE WHO ENDURE TO THE END WITHOUT TAKING THE MARK OF THE BEAST ARE 'CHANGED' AND RAISED UP TO BE WITH THOSE WHO WERE 'RAISED' UP BEFORE THEM (AND HAVE RETURNED WITH CHRIST.) THEY ALSO RECEIVE THEIR SPIRITUAL BODY AND THEIR IMMORTALITY AND WILL NEVER EVER EVER EVER NEED TO BE RAISED AGAIN. THEY ARE A PART OF THE FIRST RESURRECTION.


on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.



It is the SPIRIT of the words we need to be concerned with, the story they tell. If we can't put the words into EVENTs then we are arguing over words. When we take the meaning and put them into events the events themselves will show us truth.


PROOF
Those to whom the laws and the prophets were given STUDIED those words. Debated those words in their synagogues. Knew those words backwards and forwards. Had schools to learn those words. THEY had all the information about the coming BIRTH OF JESUS. Still, THEY MISSED IT.

They even had EVENTS taking place before their very eyes. There were the wise men who came FOLLOWING the star. Herod had all the 2 and under killed. THEY heard Him speaking words He should not have known like He did. THEY heard John the Baptist crying in the wilderness. Then they met Him, saw Him performing miracles, watched the crowds swelling in size, heard truths about themselves....

THEY KNEW THE WORDS.. BUT those words did them no good because they couldn't SEE.

WE have BEEN GIVEN the Holy Spirit to lead and guide us. To show us, if we allow Him, the picture the words are painting for us, the spirit of the words.

Just saying the day we think we KNOW something we better step back and find out what is really going on. Or we can be stubborn and stiff necked.
 

FreeGrace2

Well-known member
Jan 31, 2021
3,806
529
113
FreeGrace2 said:
No one has shown more than 1 resurrection or a "rapture" where the beilevers are taken to heaven.
NO ONE IS EVER TAKEN TO HEAVEN unless they die. (save Enoch, Elijah and Moses) HEAVEN IS COMING HERE.
That's only AFTER the Millennial reign. But what is this about no one is taken to heaven unless they die?? How does this relate to a rapture anyway. No one dies when they are gathered up (the real biblical word) to the clouds to receive their glorified bodies.

The alive and remaining are changed and gathered together with those who RETURNED with Christ, and Christ is coming to RULE as KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS on the throne of David, here on earth where the nations can come and worship.
Right. No one goes to heaven after receiving glorified bodies. Glad we agree!

If you allow yourself to get stuck to a 'milk' teaching, a 'meat' teaching will never be SEEN. I HAVE read it the way you do and it makes no sense and I will show you EXACTLY WHY.
Other than just being snarky, I have no idea why you think this is relevant.

Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

We know that that goes with this
2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the Brightness of His coming
9 Even Him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
Yep.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.

This is the first resurrection.

WHO IS A PART OF THE FIRST RESURRECTION?
Real easy answer: EVERY believer from Adam forward. There is only 1 resurrection of the saved. Acts 24:15 -
English Standard Version
having a hope in God, which these men themselves accept, that there will be a resurrection of both the just and the unjust.

That means 2 TOTAL. ONE for the saved, and ONE for the unsaved.

1) THE SOULS OF THOSE WHO WERE BEHEADED FOR THE WITNESS OF JESUS
2) THE SOULS OF THOSE WHO WERE BEHEADED FOR THE WORD OF GOD
3) THE SOULS OF THOSE WHO HAD NOT WORSHIPPED THE BEAST
4) THE SOULS OF THOSE WHO HAD NOT WORSHIPPED HIS IMAGE
5) THE SOULS OF THOSE WHO HAD NOT RECEIVED HIS MARK UPON THEIR FOREHEAD, OR IN THEIR HANDS
Just because John didn't mention Adam, doesn't mean Adam won't be there.

1 Cor 15:23 - English Standard Version
But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.

Now, don't make the mistake of thinking that "only" the body of Christ or NT believers "belong to Christ". In fact, every believer throughout time belongs to Him, because Jesus Christ saves every believer.

1 Cor 15:23 proves the single resurrection of the saved.

THE FIRST 2 COME BEFORE THE WORSHIP OF THE BEAST, SO THEY COVER THROUGH OUT TIME. ARE THESE THE ONLY ONES OF A FIRST RESURRECTION? No, just the ones listed here.
From the verses I just quoted, I couldn't disagree more.

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection
ONLY believers, and EVERY believer will have a part in the FIRST of TWO resurrections; the one for the just, or saved.

[QUOTETHIS DOES NOT SAY 'A RESURRECTION DAY' IT SAYS FIRST RESURRECTION. It is not a 'day' it is an occurrence. [/QUOTE]
This goes without saying, of course.

Jesus went to prepare a place for us in which he shall come for us, receive us to Himself and it is the only way to come to the Father.
No, John 14 isn't about a rapture. Jesus was still alive when He said this. After His crucifixion and ascension, He DID go to prepare a place. He was talking to His 11 disciples. He was assurring them that they would go to heaven when they died.

Those who HAVE NOT received the gift of Salvation will 'rise' when Christ returns BUT NOT TO IMMORTALITY, just to an incorruptible body (except in the lake of fire).
You should read Rev 20. All of it. The GWT judgment doesn't occur until AFTER the 1,000 reign of King Jesus.

It is the SPIRIT of the words we need to be concerned with, the story they tell. If we can't put the words into EVENTs then we are arguing over words.
That's what I've been doing. Lining up events.

When we take the meaning and put them into events the events themselves will show us truth.
Correct.

1. Tribulation.
2. Second Advent, Jesus Christ comes and gives glorified bodies to ALL believers and then ends the battle of Armageddon and sets up His Millennial Kingdom. Satan (and presumably all his fallen angels) will be incarcerated during the 1,000 years.
3. Near end of the Millennium, Satan (and presumably all his fallen angels) will be released and will deceive the nations once again.
4. Jesus Christ destroys all of them at the battle of Gog and Magog.
5. current earth is melted, etc.
6. new earth is formed and the New Jerusalem comes down from heaven to be on earth.
7. all this is the eternal state.

Just saying the day we think we KNOW something we better step back and find out what is really going on. Or we can be stubborn and stiff necked.
I KNOW what's going on because of what the Bible SAYS will be going on.
 

ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
3,512
926
113
Well you'll have to pardon me but whereas He does not say "... and receive you unto Myself AND TAKE YOU BACK TO HEAVEN ...." neither does He say " ... and receive you unto Myself AND BRING YOU BACK TO EARTH ..."

The natural thing to suppose is that He will take us to the place He has prepared for us.
But he doesn't say that. The place in heaven he prepares are for those who die up until his second coming.

Joh_14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you,

That's his ascension and a place in heaven for those who die.

I will come again, and receive you unto myself;

This is the second coming and rapture.

that where I am, there ye may be also.


So after the second coming, where is Christ? He says the saints he came for will be with him where he is at. Clearly that is an Earthly location not heaven.
 

kleronomos

Active member
Dec 15, 2021
261
45
28
The OT saints did not belong to Him as part of His body. They died in faith before the resurrection. We have something better than they.

Not sure 'boasting against the branches' is a good idea.

The graves opened. He went to preach 'to them that slept'. He led the captivity captive. The dead were raised. Those who had died under the law WERE OFFERED THE EXACT SAME GIFT as was OFFERED TO THE GENTILES 'BELIEVE IN THE SON OF GOD', and your death will no longer fall under 'the law of sin and death' but UNDER GRACE, just like us. Exactly like us. And they came out of their graves. AND CHRIST went to prepare a place for them so that they could go and be where He was.

THE ALTERNATIVE would be that they WENT BACK IN THE GROUND AGAIN AFTER BEING RAISED UP. THAT WOULD BE 2 deaths and would RENDER VOID

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

SO THEY WENT TO HEAVEN. Just like we do.

Because once Christ preached to them, they were under GRACE. And being under grace, received the gift of Salvation, and are NOW WITHOUT SIN , (a really good time for ALL PAST SINs FORGIVEN because they will never be in the flesh again)

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.


Romans 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.


Romans 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
2 Much every way chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
3 For what if some did not believe?
shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
4 God forbid yea, let God be true, but every man a liar as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
 

kleronomos

Active member
Dec 15, 2021
261
45
28
Kleronomos said
NO ONE IS EVER TAKEN TO HEAVEN unless they die. (save Enoch, Elijah and Moses) HEAVEN IS COMING HERE.

That's only AFTER the Millennial reign. But what is this about no one is taken to heaven unless they die?? How does this relate to a rapture anyway. No one dies when they are gathered up (the real biblical word) to the clouds to receive their glorified bodies.
New Jerusalem comes down from heaven after the Millennial reign. Pre trib Mid trib Post trib DOESN'T MATTER no one not even those who are 'caught up' is going to heaven. Please give me a verse that says they are.


Only way to heaven 'to the place prepared for us' is through death and instant resurrection and all of them return with Christ at the 2nd Advent.


That means 2 TOTAL. ONE for the saved, and ONE for the unsaved.[/QUOTE


The part I am missing is Scripture for 1) they all take place at the same time, 2) they all take place on the same day



Other than just being snarky,
John 5:20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them even so the Son quickeneth whom He will.
22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son
23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.



25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.


HERE HE SAYS IT

26 For as the Father hath life in Himself; so hath He given to the Son to have life in Himself;
27 And hath given Him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28 Marvel not at this for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

HERE IT IS HAPPENS

Matthew 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

Matthew 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

Matthew 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.


IS THAT THE ONE AND ONLY ONE THAT EVER TAKES PLACE THAT YOU ARE SPEAKING OF?

CAUSE THIS ONE TOOK PLACE 2000 YEARS AGO.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
13,117
2,685
113
Not sure 'boasting against the branches' is a good idea.

The graves opened. He went to preach 'to them that slept'. He led the captivity captive. The dead were raised. Those who had died under the law WERE OFFERED THE EXACT SAME GIFT as was OFFERED TO THE GENTILES 'BELIEVE IN THE SON OF GOD', and your death will no longer fall under 'the law of sin and death' but UNDER GRACE, just like us. Exactly like us. And they came out of their graves. AND CHRIST went to prepare a place for them so that they could go and be where He was.

THE ALTERNATIVE would be that they WENT BACK IN THE GROUND AGAIN AFTER BEING RAISED UP. THAT WOULD BE 2 deaths and would RENDER VOID

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

SO THEY WENT TO HEAVEN. Just like we do.

Because once Christ preached to them, they were under GRACE. And being under grace, received the gift of Salvation, and are NOW WITHOUT SIN , (a really good time for ALL PAST SINs FORGIVEN because they will never be in the flesh again)

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.


Romans 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.


Romans 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
2 Much every way chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
3 For what if some did not believe?
shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
4 God forbid yea, let God be true, but every man a liar as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
Hebrews 11:
39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
 

BroTan

Active member
Sep 16, 2021
380
57
28
I do quote from memory a lot ... which these days is not as good as it used to be.

However He was speaking in Jerusalem and He said I go away to prepare a place for you.

The then converted Jews will reign as a kingdom of priests from Jerusalem, we are the heavenly body. We are already seated with Him in heavenly places.

Let's keep in mind before the Father Kingdom Jesus have to rule for a thousand years in Jerusalem. Let's go to Isaiah 2: 2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

But the Father kingdom will be after Jesus Kingdom, let's go to Revelation 21: 1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. 5And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. 10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

So the Father kingdom have Jesus and the Father in it, plus we see a new Jerusalem coming down out of heaven.
 
Jul 24, 2021
275
30
28
Before the question can be answered, we must first understand the importance of “Hebrew Chiastic Structure”. A “chiasm” is a form of Hebrew poetry where not words, but ideas, are rhymed. It's a literary device in which the ideas are arranged as “ABXBA”, “ABBA”, “ABAB”, or other variations. Chiasms are extremely important to hermeneutics because they are “guideposts” which help us to determine if our interpretations are on track or way off course because correct interpretations leave the chiasms intact, while incorrect interpretations destroy them. Many false ideas, especially eschatological ideas, stem from Bible "scholars" ignoring chiasms within the texts. Here are two examples of a chiasm from Psalms 33, the entirely of which is one chiasm after another:

Psalms 33:6 KJV
A. Word of the Lord
B. Heavens
B. Host of them
A. Breath of His mouth


Psalms 33:9 KJV
A. He spake
B. it was done
A. He commanded
B. it stood fast

That said, now let's examine 1 Thessalonians 4:14 KJV:
“For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus
will God bring with Him”.

Can you recognize the chiasm? Here it is:
A. Jesus died (death)
B. rose again (resurrection)
A. sleep in Jesus (death)
B. will God bring forth from death (resurrection)


How do we know “bring” refers to “bring forth from death” and not “bring from heaven back to Earth”? Because this interpretation leaves the chiasm intact (“ABAB”) while the popular yet erroneous interpretation “bring from heaven back to Earth” destroys the chiasm (“ABA--”).

Another reason we know is that the emphasis of the entire passage of 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 KJV focuses on the fate of the dead saints, not the Second Coming. Paul's message here is to the bereaved Thessalonian saints who are concerned about what happened to their dearly departed loved ones, and with it he assures them that they are sleeping in Jesus, they will wake at the sound of Lord's shout, voice, and trumpet and rise forth from death, and they will be caught up to Jesus in the clouds first, followed by “we that are alive and remain”.

Finally, the very last thing Paul told these bereaved Thessalonians saints is that they were to “comfort one another with these words”, but with what words? That the dead are in heaven? No! With words of the resurrection. Paul wants all Christians to know that just as surely as God brought Jesus forth from the dead, so God will bring the sleeping saints forth from death "with Him", or "in like manner".
Nice. Was wondering about that poetic rhythm I kept hearing with Scripture. Definitely will check it out.

The OP is long, haven't read everything, but here's my 2 cents. There are 2 only resurrections at the end of the Great White Throne.
Rev 20:4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
 

kleronomos

Active member
Dec 15, 2021
261
45
28
Hebrews 11:
39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Did you read it?

YOU HIGHLIGHTED THE WRONG PART All focused on the pre trib rapture and MISSING THE WHOLE POINT 'BEING MADE' WHICH IN REALITY SHOULD BE MAKING YOU UNDERSTAND THERE CAN BE NO PRE TRIB RAPTURE.



Hebrews 11:24 By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;

Hebrews 11:25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;

Hebrews 11:26 Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt:


FOR HE HAD RESPECT UNTO THE RECOMPENSE OF REWARD



Hebrews 11:27 By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.

Hebrews 11:28 Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them.

Hebrews 11:29 By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned.

Hebrews 11:30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days.

Hebrews 11:31 By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.

Hebrews 11:32 And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:

Hebrews 11:33 Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions.

Hebrews 11:34 Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.

Hebrews 11:35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:


Hebrews 11:36 And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:

Hebrews 11:37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;

Hebrews 11:38 (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.

Hebrews 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise

Hebrews 11:40 God having provided some better thing FOR US, THAT THEY WITHOUT US SHOULD NOT BE MADE PERFECT

so that not apart from us they should be made perfect


Hebrews 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Another reason why there is no pre trib rapture

Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.


Another reason there is no pre trib rapture

Hebrews 12:3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.

Hebrews 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

This is why there is no pre trib rapture

Hebrews 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:

Hebrews 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

This is why there is no pre trib rapture

Hebrews 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

This is why there is no pre trib rapture

Hebrews 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

Hebrews 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

Hebrews 12:10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but He for our profit, that we might be partakers of His holiness.







Hebrews 12:11 NOW NO CHASTENING FOR THE PRESENT SEEMETH TO BE JOYOUS




but grievous:




nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.





This is why there is no pre trib rapture


Hebrews 12:12 Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;

Hebrews 12:13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.

Hebrews 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

Hebrews 12:15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled

Hebrews 12:16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.

Hebrews 12:17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

Hebrews 12:18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,

Hebrews 12:19 And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:

Hebrews 12:20 (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:

Hebrews 12:21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake:)

Hebrews 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

Hebrews 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

This is why there is no pre trib rapture

Hebrews 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things that that of Abel.

Hebrews 12:25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

Hebrews 12:26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.

Hebrews 12:27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.

Hebrews 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

Hebrews 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
13,117
2,685
113
Did you read it?

YOU HIGHLIGHTED THE WRONG PART All focused on the pre trib rapture and MISSING THE WHOLE POINT 'BEING MADE' WHICH IN REALITY SHOULD BE MAKING YOU UNDERSTAND THERE CAN BE NO PRE TRIB RAPTURE.



Hebrews 11:24 By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;

Hebrews 11:25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;

Hebrews 11:26 Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt:


FOR HE HAD RESPECT UNTO THE RECOMPENSE OF REWARD



Hebrews 11:27 By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.

Hebrews 11:28 Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them.

Hebrews 11:29 By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned.

Hebrews 11:30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days.

Hebrews 11:31 By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.

Hebrews 11:32 And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:

Hebrews 11:33 Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions.

Hebrews 11:34 Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.

Hebrews 11:35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:

Hebrews 11:36 And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:

Hebrews 11:37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;

Hebrews 11:38 (Of whom the world was not worthy:)they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.

Hebrews 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise

Hebrews 11:40 God having provided some better thing FOR US, THAT THEY WITHOUT US SHOULD NOT BE MADE PERFECT

so that not apart from us they should be made perfect


Hebrews 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Another reason why there is no pre trib rapture

Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.


Another reason there is no pre trib rapture

Hebrews 12:3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.

Hebrews 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

This is why there is no pre trib rapture

Hebrews 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:

Hebrews 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

This is why there is no pre trib rapture

Hebrews 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

This is why there is no pre trib rapture

Hebrews 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

Hebrews 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

Hebrews 12:10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but He for our profit, that we might be partakers of His holiness.







Hebrews 12:11 NOW NO CHASTENING FOR THE PRESENT SEEMETH TO BE JOYOUS




but grievous:




nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.





This is why there is no pre trib rapture


Hebrews 12:12 Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;

Hebrews 12:13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.

Hebrews 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

Hebrews 12:15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled

Hebrews 12:16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.

Hebrews 12:17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

Hebrews 12:18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,

Hebrews 12:19 And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:

Hebrews 12:20 (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:

Hebrews 12:21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake:)

Hebrews 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

Hebrews 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

This is why there is no pre trib rapture

Hebrews 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things that that of Abel.

Hebrews 12:25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

Hebrews 12:26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.

Hebrews 12:27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.

Hebrews 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

Hebrews 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.
Good luck in the tribulation…don’t take the mark, endure to the end, and you better keep the commandments or else…
 

FreeGrace2

Well-known member
Jan 31, 2021
3,806
529
113
New Jerusalem comes down from heaven after the Millennial reign. Pre trib Mid trib Post trib DOESN'T MATTER no one not even those who are 'caught up' is going to heaven. Please give me a verse that says they are.
Since I NEVER said anyone at the resurrection/rapture is going to heaven, why would you ask me such an irrelevant question?

Only way to heaven 'to the place prepared for us' is through death and instant resurrection and all of them return with Christ at the 2nd Advent.
That has been my point.
 

kleronomos

Active member
Dec 15, 2021
261
45
28
FreeGrace2 said:
No one has shown more than 1 resurrection or a "rapture" where the beilevers are taken to heaven.
That's only AFTER the Millennial reign. But what is this about no one is taken to heaven unless they die?? How does this relate to a rapture anyway. No one dies when they are gathered up (the real biblical word) to the clouds to receive their glorified bodies.
This is the sentence that lead to my confusion

I read 'believers' are taken to heaven as most people speak of the 'pre trib rap' and didn't realize you meant at death. I apologize
 

FreeGrace2

Well-known member
Jan 31, 2021
3,806
529
113
This is the sentence that lead to my confusion

I read 'believers' are taken to heaven as most people speak of the 'pre trib rap' and didn't realize you meant at death. I apologize
No problem. Sorry for the confusion.
 

Phoneman-777

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2019
2,805
429
83
No, you are the distorter of Scripture. Please stop saying what isn't true. There is nothing a soul oming into existence as a consequence of union of body and breath of life. The Bible says "man became a living being". That is the result of the breath of life, which IS the soul, whether you agree or not, and body. This sentence directly applies to yourself.
Why do you refuse to accept the Biblical truth that the Breath of Life and the Soul are two different things?
 

Phoneman-777

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2019
2,805
429
83
And this is what you have NEVER proved. All you have is your opinions. God gave the body a soul and "man became living being.
Actually, just read Genesis 2:7 because that's exactly what it says. In the Hebrew it says:

"God formed man of the dust of the ground (Body), breathed into hisnostrils the Breath of Life aka Spirit of Life , and "dust of the ground" became a Living Soul."​

You teach the Living Soul was an instrument in God's hand used to make Adam - that is not the case. It plainly says the Soul was the RESULT of God wielding His Breath of Life as He placed it into the Body, which action PRODUCED the Living Soul whose name was "Adam".
 

Phoneman-777

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2019
2,805
429
83
OK, here is just another example of your very poor discernment and reading skills.

To say "into your hands" Jesus meant that He was submitting to God's PLAN for Him. It says NOTHING about "going UP". You just love to add to the Bible. Adding things the Bible DOESN'T say.
Oh, so now you're a Pantheist ? LOl Look, bro, Solomon says plainly the Spirit ascends and descends, contrary to your flawed conclusion that it meanders around like some Pantheistic pagan god.

Ecclesiastes 3:21 KJV talks about the "Spirit" of man going upward to God (obviously at death) and the Spirit that comes down from God (obviously at birth) to a beast of the animal kingdom.

Also, Stephen was looking heavenward at Jesus when he asked Jesus to recieve his Spirit.

Job says God gathers His Breath to Himself - where's God? UP THERE ON HIS THRONE.
 

Phoneman-777

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2019
2,805
429
83
You are deceived, its a waste to even debate it further tbh.
Decieved? Bro, Antiochus had nothing to do with prophecy - he doesn't fit the eschatological criteria, and forcing "1200 evenings and mornings" to be 1100 instead of the 2300 is never going to make up for that.

You're following Jesuit Preterist nonsense. Why do you Jesuit Futurists and Jesuit Preterists not just go ahead and join the Catholic church? Y'all preach Jesuit doctrine, teach the Catholic views on Antichrist, what happens when we die, what happens to the wicked in hell, a distorted view of grace, etc. I'm sure they'd be glad to have you.
 

Phoneman-777

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2019
2,805
429
83
I must disagree, with a few things.

You ADDED (for whatever reason, maybe a doctrine of man) "at the end of the world".
I stopped reading right here. Jesus plainly says the resurrection of the Just is at the end of the world, at which time He repeatedly promised to raise the righteous "at the last day", OK?

If you don't know something, ASK - don't just start spouting antagonistic nonsense about "doctrine of man".

Jesus, Paul, Job, and others taught the resurrection was in the end of time, at which time we receive our resurrection bodies..therefore "naked" and "unclothed" can ONLY point to "lying naked in the grave unclothed without a body dead, asleep, in a non-existent state of insensibility". There's NO OTHER WAY to interpret Paul's logic when he says if the dead rise not, then eat, drink, for tomorrow we die and perish.
 

Phoneman-777

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2019
2,805
429
83
mmm .... When the Jews [apart from Paul] speak about Jesu's return they are speaking about His return to judge, Paul only speaks about His coming to gather the saints at the rapture "things [quoth Peter] which be hard to understand"

Only Paul understood that the Jews were to be diminished, laid aside in things of God for a protracted period. This is the famous Parenthesis or gap in prophecy when the church would be established among the nations, the times of the Gentiles. The Jews simply could not get their heads around this. Paul had it revealed to him.

So there is the Jewish understanding of Christ's return [which you believe] and there is Paul's understanding. Only Paul taught the rapture.

Both scenarios are correct but there is a 1, 000 year gap between Paul and the Jews.
No more Jew and Gentile, bro.

Let's pretend the Jews set up a new temple and inside start sacrificing lambs and burning them on altars - such sacrifices would be a collective Jewish middle finger in the face of God, saying, "Hey Lord, here's what we think of Your "Lamb of God which taketh away the sins of the world", would they not?

Now, would God ever inspire Paul to call such a building "THE TEMPLE OF GOD"??? Never in a bazillion years, bro. The Jews got NUTHIN to do with end times prophecy. The "temple of God" in which the Antichrist sits is the New Testament church, brother, and most Christians are following Antichrist's teachings.
 

Phoneman-777

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2019
2,805
429
83
Nice. Was wondering about that poetic rhythm I kept hearing with Scripture. Definitely will check it out.

The OP is long, haven't read everything, but here's my 2 cents. There are 2 only resurrections at the end of the Great White Throne.
Rev 20:4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
It's a bit long, but half of it is explaining what a Chiasm is. If you skip down to the verse in the title, it's easy to chew on.