Visiting Israel

[JohnDB]

cool...I cant imagine it being too deep otherwise people would drown

Hmm with the clean vs dirty place I kinda wonder if the israeli side just dumps their trash to the palestinian side.

I know in my experience working in local govt that is what people do...and they would also dump their trash in the rivers as well. But if there isnt any tax collection going on to pay for rubbish removal (or its too expensive) it just doesnt get done. If they dont collect enough to pay for rubbish removal then you get less maintenance done and the place just goes downhill very fast. It needs to be done every week, even every day (sweeping, weeding etc) but if there are no staff to do it or they dont get paid much it will soon look shabby.

The Israeli people have a pride in occupying their homeland. They might argue incessantly among themselves but they have this brotherhood that can't be broken. "He is always my brother even though he's an idiot" and they will go to violence over their brothers.

The thinking of "you are destroying our home" is prevalent in their daily lives of poor driving skills to allowing trash to be about... everyone picks up trash if they see it.

Trash is usually the normal combination of any Westernized civilization...incineration, recycling and burial in either land or ocean.

 

[JohnDB]

The Palestinian have no such cultural focus. They are fragmented in several ways. The "average" person is concerned with Israel as this is the main source of income for Palestinians. They have a "leech" type economy and focus. They just want Israeli money and wealth. They have fundraising drives in other nations to support themselves as they really don't have much of an economy or industry.
In Palestinian lands every vice imaginable is for sale there. From recreational drugs to flesh. Of course gambling, alcohol, and tobacco is much cheaper in the Palestinian areas. These things are either prohibited or taxed heavily in Israel proper. The food is not any better there. Nobody cares. It's NOT considered their home nor does any pride show from any of the attitudes I seen. They only care that Israel seems wealthy and that they are poor.

But again...it's not well policed, serviced, or regulated. Not a place I would advise going outside of a tour group. Americans are mostly left alone except for the salesmen...they will harass you like they do in Tijuana or Hawaii.

There's nothing as lonely as a Palestinian Christian.

On a side note...
The areas the Palestinian control now once belonged to the Israelites of Old...like during OT times. The Philistine areas is where the Jews are now.

Now the Jews went from the Palestinian areas to controlling the whole place. They made do and used everything at their disposal to elevate themselves in a united fashion.

The Palestinians have no cultural equivalent or desires or even similar morality.

 

[Lanolin]

well palestinians dont really have an established form of governance before Israel returned with the zionists they were just nomadic and living under the Ottoman empire (which was wider than the current state borders) and Britain loosely ruled them.

Many of them fled to Jordan and surrounding countries but they were not prepared to take them in as refugees. They may have been living there for a long time while most of the Jews were in exile but they were not really a unified nation and didnt have the claim or the promise to the land the Israelites did.

I suppose you could regard the situation like they were tenants or long term squatters. Unless the Israelis took them in and they converted they were not going to be part of the Israeli 'family'. However in the Bible it does say that Israelis need to treat foreigners kindly like how Egypt treated them when they had famine in the land and needed food.

 

[JaumeJ]

I suppose one could take this understanding and apply it to the Indian tribes of the Americas. Doing so does not take away their rights to having been free peoples of these lands. Other people did that.

 

[JohnDB]

I suppose one could take this understanding and apply it to the Indian tribes of the Americas. Doing so does not take away their rights to having been free peoples of these lands. Other people did that.

Well...
Many Jews over the years tried to buy land in Israel...(before WWII)

But kept getting told that their land deeds were worthless. (Simply because they were Jewish)

For centuries this had been going on and the last remnants of the Ottoman Empire refused to recognize any Jew's claim to own any land at any time. Simply because they were Moslem and Jews were Jews. In fact only nomads did live in the area...
The land was practically useless to everyone...it was "travel through" land that nobody had a reason to stop in unless they were forced to because of mechanical problems.
(It was in that bad of shape and desolate)

Until 1948 and the stroke of a pen. (So to speak)

Then there was a game afoot.

And when the British finally got tired of hearing the complaints and left. (Not that the complaints were unjustified or unwarranted) the whole Arab world came in to attack them and wipe them out. And so America gave Israel a bunch of WWII surplus equipment....which they used extremely effectively.

And we should have let them have a free hand...there would be so many fewer issues today if we had. But we called them to go back home and stop invading those who invaded you. (They were kicking some serious donkey)

There were many groups at that time that were interested in guerilla warfare that would destabilize a nation and allow a new slate of leadership... because most of the nations in that area were extremely weak at that time.

There was one such micro group that started in Tunisia but got tossed out and went to Egypt where they found fertile ground and grew in numbers.
The Egyptians were slow to respond but they did finally and began to slaughter them wholesale. This dissident group ran all the way to Syria. (There wasn't anything in Israel yet) This dissident group engaged in the same thing there and finally got the same results as what happened in Egypt.

So this group went off to Jordan. And started up once again.

And the Jordanian King was still pissed off over losing land to Israel when they thought that their invasion with the other 5 countries should have been a cake walk. Now with this dissident group destabilizing his rule he got an idea of how to kill two birds with one rock. "That land that Israel took from us...you dissidents can have it and occupy it. And you had better or else I'm going to do to you as Egypt and Syria did starting next month"

And that's where the Palestinians actually came from.

Now the nomads and actual few residents of the area Israel now occupies...they didn't mind whatsoever. Israel turned that sand pile into a literal garden... complete with medical facilities, libraries, running water and sewer.... restaurants and shopping malls. Paved roads and all kinds of infrastructure like electricity. They loved every minute of it.

 

[JohnDB]

One thing that I will say...

In order to prepare a person really needs to understand and know the history of Israel before they go.
And if you do...there's a wealth of amazement in seeing these things.

Even when you fly over Greece you can see from the air where the Persians fought the Spartans....

Or when you climb up the Temple mount from the Gehenna side...it's gruelling.

To see the spice market and coordinate it with Simon the Cyrene being conscripted to carry Jesus' crosspiece...

It's very eye-opening.

The aspect of the humiliation a crucifixion employed was something I never understood until I went there.

Also I had known that sunrise was an important time in biblical literature...but until I personally seen Sunrise I didn't really understand why so much stuff happened then.

Elijah's cave was another ah hah moment...

And while I was visiting "David's" castle I was overhearing others listen to the history of Israel by a guided tour while I breezed through already knowing it and just seeing the respective architecture and stone.

I didn't get stuck listening to the guy...I went and took closer looks at some of the craftsmanship and various carvings.

And I got to eat pancakes on the Temple mount. (No bacon or sausage though unfortunately)

 

[Lanolin]

its very complicated politically...and the arabs countries that have a bone to pick with Israel because they didnt want to to take more refugees (when they actually had way more land, and the room for them) just make things more difficult. On Zionists part they seemed a bit heavy handed and under a lot of pressure. But then they were treated badly in exile.
Its all a bit tit for tat. Not sure anything human would ever resolve that dispute. If someone doesnt believe that God gave you this land or any lands deeds and titles or even that your house/dwelling is here and all you family is buried there and they are in power what can you do? The Jews were lucky in that they had wealthy connections in america that was able to pool money to buy back large areas of land (which they shouldnt have even had to since God gave them under the first covenant) as with most things money talks...


Regarding the sunrise Im supposing in thise elevated areas its pretty spectacular. Plus being close to desert area more things happen in the early hours (and twilight) than in the middle of the day...do they have siesta?

Did you notice a lot of stone/rocks. In some places there are memorial stones as specified in the Bible but I dont know if they are still there...

 

[JohnDB]

Did you notice a lot of stone/rocks. In some places there are memorial stones as specified in the Bible but I dont know if they are still there

I didn't get to see any (they have been collected and preserved somewhere)...but the place is so covered in rocks that it's odd. There is rock about the size of a softball or bigger everywhere that isn't landscaped. Some of that rock is rubble from the various buildings over the thousands of years. Everything is built out of rock and has been for thousands of years.

There are farms in Israel and the first thing they have to do is scrape off the rock that covers the dirt...then they farm the rocky sand that's left. And they have to have a place to dump the rock too. There are also lots of natural caves around the place where rock hills are. But I imagine that people don't hang out in them on account of scorpions.
Then they set up netting over the top of the plants. Bugs and birds would have a field day otherwise.

We seen an abandoned farm... everything was dead from lack of water. (Water bills are high) Disconcerting to say the least. The contrast is stark. Water is life there...and wherever has been watered the flowers and vegetation really stands out with bright bright colors.
The Israeli government has planted shrubs and trees and landscaped everywhere...there are those watering hoses everywhere.
So the place looks lush and green everywhere in Israeli territory...then there's a fence and a dessert filled with trash, debris and rock is on the other side of that fence....the grass isn't greener on the other side of the fence...there is no grass, only rocks and trash.

 

[JohnDB]

One of the places we stayed as an Airbnb in Jerusalem was a Jewish man's house that was incredibly old. The cistern he had covered up because he now had running water and the electricity was on top of the walls.
The house had to be built in the distant distant past...the walls were a foot thick. All Jerusalem stone. He had a garden...it was incredible... even a huge fig tree. On the roof I could take incredible pictures of Jerusalem city and the temple mount.
The home owner couldn't climb up as he had just been through knee surgery and was having issues getting around.
There is a famous story about polish orphans during WWII...his father was actually one of them who tried to get the kids taken care of and out of the war zone.

See, most of the antisemitism is not actually by the common man. It's usually almost always politically driven. Jews are not monsters. Just the opposite. Whenever they settle into a city they are usually the ones to bring hospitals and libraries and any number of community works projects like orphanages. The common man loves having Jews settle in a city. The government? Well they tend to look bad by contrast...and that's why the antisemitism.

Also over the centuries the Jews usually have great contacts for jewelry and usually are heavily involved in the banking industry. (Admiration for Daniel the prophet). Creating them if there are none in an area. Pawn shops used to be the bank in town...that practice has gone to the seedier merchants anymore...but the regular banks are Jewish mostly all over Europe and Asia and Africa. (Except for the Switzerland banks)

But all that regular infrastructure that the Jewish people bring...it's awesome to have if you have been doing without.

 

[Lanolin]

Yes I can imagine the Jews were big contributors to my country, eg the mayor who put a sewer system in my city...without it we would be drowning in muck (although its now getting old)

One half jewish guy was the prime minister and people only voted for him cos he made a heap of money in the US in investment banking. People thought he could fix the economy. He didnt really just did some cost cutting but it didnt tank, he just sort of knew when to buy and sell and who to trade with.

 

[Lanolin]

With the water are they getting it from underground springs or rivers? Are there dams? How do they generate electricity...is it solar power?
Just wondering. And what do the sheep eat if there is no grass? Or are there more goats than sheep.

 

[TheIndianGirl]

Well, I definitely want to visit Israel/Holy Land at some point, and also the greater Levant region. I would like a portion of the trip to be a tour, but also a portion where I can just sight-see on my own. The maximum I can get off work is probably a month; that should do but more time would be nice. Some people I know went to Israel for about 10 days or so; I think that is too short.

 

[JohnDB]

Well, I definitely want to visit Israel/Holy Land at some point, and also the greater Levant region. I would like a portion of the trip to be a tour, but also a portion where I can just sight-see on my own. The maximum I can get off work is probably a month; that should do but more time would be nice. Some people I know went to Israel for about 10 days or so; I think that is too short.

In ten days you can see a LOT...
The place is not that big at all. And it's an expensive place to visit by comparison of other locations.

The Shrine of the Book is neat for those who understand and know about the history of the Tenakh. Mamonides and Rambam and etc. There's also a copy of the Isaiah scroll found in the Dead Sea Scrolls and some history of Israel itself there.

And that's the thing about the place...
It's awesome if you know history... really know it. Know the geography and anthropology...then it's just a big reveal of one story after another. Imagining those stories taking place where that restaurant sits now...

Now we went in the summer so it was really HOT but the winters there are mild and wet...aka growing season...

They do things a bit different there. The winter is the growing season and the summer is not so much. You can grow stuff in the summer but it takes more water than the winter months.

 

[Isny]

This is a most interesting thread. Many, many years ago I was interested in taking off from work for a month or 6 weeks and working on a kibbutz in Israel. I talked to a Jewish family here locally which was familiar with a kibbutz near Beersheba in the Negev and a kibbutz near Nazareth founded by Germans. I don't remember the names.

For some reason I could not go and even today when I think about Israel, I regret never going. I believe working with the locals is far more interesting than just sightseeing in a foreign country.

Please tell us more about your trips!

 

[Lanolin]

yea I dont know if they still do the kibbutz thing. I probably wouldnt go as a tourist myself as it would probably be too expensive and I would never meet any locals and experience how they really live.

 

[kaylagrl]

The Israeli people have a pride in occupying their homeland. They might argue incessantly among themselves but they have this brotherhood that can't be broken. "He is always my brother even though he's an idiot" and they will go to violence over their brothers.

The thinking of "you are destroying our home" is prevalent in their daily lives of poor driving skills to allowing trash to be about... everyone picks up trash if they see it.

Trash is usually the normal combination of any Westernized civilization...incineration, recycling and burial in either land or ocean.

??

 

[JohnDB]

yea I dont know if they still do the kibbutz thing. I probably wouldnt go as a tourist myself as it would probably be too expensive and I would never meet any locals and experience how they really live.

I thought that very same thing.

They don't have many Kibbutz anymore...only two that are recognized. The one where Jesus was baptized is one and there's another that does farming. Both are a LOT of hard work.

The way that we afforded the trip was that we had gone on a mission trip elsewhere. And once that was over we just altered our return airfare to stop in Israel for a few days...
It only added a couple hundred dollars to our airplane tickets plus the costs of our accomodations and food. So it was really reasonable to go.

Sure, we were road weary by the time we got home. I missed my bed and shower something fierce. Also missed my own cooking. But it was the cheapest way for us to go.

I was definitely glad to do it.


One of the best ways to get around in Israel is the bus system. You can take a bus ride from one end of Israel to another city on the other end for $20. (Equivalent because they don't take dollars only shekels)

The average Israeli doesn't like the bus because the IDF soldiers ride the bus for free. The Israeli people consider that the Palestinians target the soldiers specifically.

My wife and I didn't...in fact we felt safer around them soldiers than the cab drivers. Those boys and girls knew exactly how to operate their rifles and were fit to do so. They also were extremely kind to us. Polite and well mannered and generous. If there was trouble I'd much rather be surrounded by them than the cab drivers.

So those IDF boys and girls have earned all my respect.

But we took bus rides between cities all the time and it was just fine. The cab ride from the bus station to the hotel would cost three to four times the amount as the bus ride for both of us together)
(The cab drivers really sucked)

 

[JohnDB]

??

Whats the question?

 

[Lanolin]

I went wwoofing in my own country and one farmstay said they had lots of isreali wwoofers come visit but they didnt have any at the time I went.
They also said israelis were typically the ones that got stuck up mountains and needed rescue helicopters..most were in the IDF and just thought they could go anywhere and do everything. But in NZ you need your wits about you, and you CAN get lost and die in the bush, plus our mountains and rivers are fairly dangerous, they arent well trodden and tamed as in other countries.

 

[kaylagrl]

Whats the question?

Underlined in red... occupy?