Galatians Discussion
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No.
He was not trying to attain Salvation through the law.
He was trying to be sinless before God. He thought he could do it because he was saved and wanted to do it. But he couldn't.
Don't think of a pink elephant. Thou shalt not. Whats the first thing that happens? You immediately think of a pink elephant. That's what the Law does. It puts your focus on the things that cause your guilt before God.
Your last sentence makes no sense whatsoever. If you are afraid of something you don't do it. What people are actually afraid of is punishment. Fear of punishment DOESN'T cause people to perform the act that brings the punishment.
He was not trying to attain Salvation through the law.
He was trying to be sinless before God. He thought he could do it because he was saved and wanted to do it. But he couldn't.
Don't think of a pink elephant. Thou shalt not. Whats the first thing that happens? You immediately think of a pink elephant. That's what the Law does. It puts your focus on the things that cause your guilt before God.
Your last sentence makes no sense whatsoever. If you are afraid of something you don't do it. What people are actually afraid of is punishment. Fear of punishment DOESN'T cause people to perform the act that brings the punishment.
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Wrong.
This is "Saul" the pharisee;
Philippians 3:4-6
4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
Paul the Pharisee thought he was righteous according to the law. By his work of the flesh.
Paul the Christian knew he wasn't righteous according to the law. Paul the Christian knew that he didn't have the capability to be perfect according to the Law. Paul the Christian knew he needed help.
This is "Saul" the pharisee;
Philippians 3:4-6
4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
Paul the Pharisee thought he was righteous according to the law. By his work of the flesh.
Paul the Christian knew he wasn't righteous according to the law. Paul the Christian knew that he didn't have the capability to be perfect according to the Law. Paul the Christian knew he needed help.
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So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5 For when we were in the realm of the flesh,[a] the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. 6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code. 4-6
Paul explains the believer dies to righteousness of obeying the law. He states the sinfull passions in us are aroused by the law. So now he gives a person al example from his own life as to why you have to die to the law and sinful passions being aroused on you by the law:
What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Its all about coveting
So is this:
We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[c] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do – this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
21 So I find this law at work: although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!
A broader ex[planation of 7-11
Must read the whole lot as one cohesive whole
Paul explains the believer dies to righteousness of obeying the law. He states the sinfull passions in us are aroused by the law. So now he gives a person al example from his own life as to why you have to die to the law and sinful passions being aroused on you by the law:
What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Its all about coveting
So is this:
We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[c] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do – this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
21 So I find this law at work: although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!
A broader ex[planation of 7-11
Must read the whole lot as one cohesive whole
He was speaking of the time the commandment came to him. It came to Saul the Pharisee. The commandment condemned him, sin grew in him through the law, sin was his master and condemned him. Paul was not condemned by the law, and he stated:
Sin shall no longer be your master for you are not under law but under grace rom6:14
He felt alive before he made a commitment to God as a young pharisee for there was no condemnation then, but when the commandment came....
I know 14-24 are contentious, but 7-11???
Sin shall no longer be your master for you are not under law but under grace rom6:14
He felt alive before he made a commitment to God as a young pharisee for there was no condemnation then, but when the commandment came....
I know 14-24 are contentious, but 7-11???
Lol I think your interpretations have led you to think you know something
“Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth? Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
What shall we say then?
Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.”
Romans 7:1, 4-7
“There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.”
Romans 8:1-5
Paul is teaching about the law of sin inside of mankind using his own experience as an example for the church seems simple enough to understand.
“Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth? Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
What shall we say then?
Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.”
Romans 7:1, 4-7
“There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.”
Romans 8:1-5
Paul is teaching about the law of sin inside of mankind using his own experience as an example for the church seems simple enough to understand.
Firstly, Phil 3:6
Did Saul really believe he perfectly obeyed the whole of the moral law without one slip/was blameless concerning it? Think about it. I like the way the NIV 1984 edition puts it:
As for legalistic righteousness, faultless
OK, so you have made clear your view Paul is speaking of his life as a Christian in verses7-11. You have nothing in those verses to back that up, only your opinions.
So, in your opinion, Saul the Pharisee did not know the ten commandments, for he is speaking of when the law came to him. Neither can Saul have known lust if you are correct, though Paul told Timothy he was the chief of sinners. It isn’t credible I’m afraid. So your belief is, only when Saul became Paul did he become aware of the commandment: Thou shalt not covet. And Paul the Christian then found himself a far worse sinner than Saul the Pharisee had been, for as a Christian he became full of all manner of concupiscence. Well if that is what you wish to believe you are entitled to that view, I could never agree with you. People under the old covenant knew sin. David said no one was righteous before God. The notion God made a covenant but people did not know the ten commandments, or what that entailed is fanciful in my view. And, other Pharisees were of course full of everything unclean on the inside(note everything) Jesus said so. Do you think they really did not know of lust either? Many today will preach virtual sinless perfection for christians, but does that mean they are not aware, or conscious of sin in their own lives. If that were so, how could they have been born again? I would not condemn them all
Did Saul really believe he perfectly obeyed the whole of the moral law without one slip/was blameless concerning it? Think about it. I like the way the NIV 1984 edition puts it:
As for legalistic righteousness, faultless
OK, so you have made clear your view Paul is speaking of his life as a Christian in verses7-11. You have nothing in those verses to back that up, only your opinions.
So, in your opinion, Saul the Pharisee did not know the ten commandments, for he is speaking of when the law came to him. Neither can Saul have known lust if you are correct, though Paul told Timothy he was the chief of sinners. It isn’t credible I’m afraid. So your belief is, only when Saul became Paul did he become aware of the commandment: Thou shalt not covet. And Paul the Christian then found himself a far worse sinner than Saul the Pharisee had been, for as a Christian he became full of all manner of concupiscence. Well if that is what you wish to believe you are entitled to that view, I could never agree with you. People under the old covenant knew sin. David said no one was righteous before God. The notion God made a covenant but people did not know the ten commandments, or what that entailed is fanciful in my view. And, other Pharisees were of course full of everything unclean on the inside(note everything) Jesus said so. Do you think they really did not know of lust either? Many today will preach virtual sinless perfection for christians, but does that mean they are not aware, or conscious of sin in their own lives. If that were so, how could they have been born again? I would not condemn them all
You believe if we are afraid of something we simply won’t do it.
I know this is probably pointless, however:
The penalty of sin brings great fear of sin, and fear of sin brings much allurement to sin
If I asked a professional poker player to have a game of poker with me for a ten pence stake, he might oblige, but there wouldn’t be any excitement in the game for him, would there? The stake is too small. If the following week he was playing a game in Las Vegas and there was a million dollars on the table, however, he’d be greatly excited then, wouldn’t he? The stakes would have his heart pounding I am sure. It is not possible to do anything that involves high stakes without great excitement surging through the individual’s body, is it?
Many take up sports that have an element of risk or danger in them so they may experience the thrill in doing so. Some jump off bridges from great heights, with ropes securely fastened to their bodies at one end, and to the bridge at the other, with enough slack to send them hurtling hundreds of feet toward the ground below. When the slack is exhausted, they come to a juddering halt, and dangle in the air for a short time, exhilarated by the thrill of the event. So it is fair to say the higher the risk involved in an activity, the greater the excitement it causes in the individual. The higher the stake a person plays for, the more the adrenalin flows.
There is one thing that dwarfs all others when it comes to battling for high stakes and taking the greatest risks, however, and that is when you believe eternal life is at stake. After all, what higher stake could a person play for than eternal life, and what activity could carry more risk than one that could send you to hell? People of faith know more than anyone of excitement being stirred in them, for they are playing for the highest stakes of all − and it isn’t a game! So what does the excitement focus on during this highest of all stakes battle? It must focus on what decides the outcome of it, for therein lies the risk and danger.
If you live under the law as Saul did, the penalty for sin is in place. Your sin, therefore can condemn you to hell. You are in the highest stakes battle of your life, and, the greatest risk you can take is to break the Ten Commandments. You would be extremely agitated at the thought of sin, if(if) you took your religion extremely seriously, maybe even fanatically. . You would be animated, overwrought, disturbed, nervous, and panic stricken at the thought of sin. Now the more these emotions concerning sin overcome you, the more sin will overwhelm you, and the more your ability to resist sin will weaken. Why is this? Because those emotions bring you to an excited state. They are all bar panic-stricken definitions of the word excite. And the definition of panic-stricken is “frenzy,” and the definition of frenzy is “wild excitement.” The emotions that result from your fear of the penalty for sin bring you to a very excited (or aroused) state where sin is concerned. If you live under the law, therefore, your fear of breaking it (sin) results in sinful passions being aroused in you. That is why Paul tells us the law arouses sinful passions in us if we live under it(Rom7:5).
Now which of the ten commandments are most likely to bring that result? Thou shalt not murder? Not really, not many of us have homicidal tendancies that would have to be played out. Thou shalt not steal? No, not that either. Thou shalt not take the Lord the God’s name in vain(literally) I don’t think so. Not even the physical act of adultery would do it. Discernment is called for(but not much in my view)
I know this is probably pointless, however:
The penalty of sin brings great fear of sin, and fear of sin brings much allurement to sin
If I asked a professional poker player to have a game of poker with me for a ten pence stake, he might oblige, but there wouldn’t be any excitement in the game for him, would there? The stake is too small. If the following week he was playing a game in Las Vegas and there was a million dollars on the table, however, he’d be greatly excited then, wouldn’t he? The stakes would have his heart pounding I am sure. It is not possible to do anything that involves high stakes without great excitement surging through the individual’s body, is it?
Many take up sports that have an element of risk or danger in them so they may experience the thrill in doing so. Some jump off bridges from great heights, with ropes securely fastened to their bodies at one end, and to the bridge at the other, with enough slack to send them hurtling hundreds of feet toward the ground below. When the slack is exhausted, they come to a juddering halt, and dangle in the air for a short time, exhilarated by the thrill of the event. So it is fair to say the higher the risk involved in an activity, the greater the excitement it causes in the individual. The higher the stake a person plays for, the more the adrenalin flows.
There is one thing that dwarfs all others when it comes to battling for high stakes and taking the greatest risks, however, and that is when you believe eternal life is at stake. After all, what higher stake could a person play for than eternal life, and what activity could carry more risk than one that could send you to hell? People of faith know more than anyone of excitement being stirred in them, for they are playing for the highest stakes of all − and it isn’t a game! So what does the excitement focus on during this highest of all stakes battle? It must focus on what decides the outcome of it, for therein lies the risk and danger.
If you live under the law as Saul did, the penalty for sin is in place. Your sin, therefore can condemn you to hell. You are in the highest stakes battle of your life, and, the greatest risk you can take is to break the Ten Commandments. You would be extremely agitated at the thought of sin, if(if) you took your religion extremely seriously, maybe even fanatically. . You would be animated, overwrought, disturbed, nervous, and panic stricken at the thought of sin. Now the more these emotions concerning sin overcome you, the more sin will overwhelm you, and the more your ability to resist sin will weaken. Why is this? Because those emotions bring you to an excited state. They are all bar panic-stricken definitions of the word excite. And the definition of panic-stricken is “frenzy,” and the definition of frenzy is “wild excitement.” The emotions that result from your fear of the penalty for sin bring you to a very excited (or aroused) state where sin is concerned. If you live under the law, therefore, your fear of breaking it (sin) results in sinful passions being aroused in you. That is why Paul tells us the law arouses sinful passions in us if we live under it(Rom7:5).
Now which of the ten commandments are most likely to bring that result? Thou shalt not murder? Not really, not many of us have homicidal tendancies that would have to be played out. Thou shalt not steal? No, not that either. Thou shalt not take the Lord the God’s name in vain(literally) I don’t think so. Not even the physical act of adultery would do it. Discernment is called for(but not much in my view)
Another way of stating what is in this post is to say that because sin we commit causes our death we must not obey the Lord when the Lord tells us to obey. Thank heavens you qualify it by speaking of the letter of the law. Christ gave us the spirit of the law.
I have never found a scripture that tells us "do not obey the letter of the law" but I find many scripture tells us the spirit of the law is much better. You can disobey the law of the Lord by obeying the letter of the law, like the Pharisee who disobeyed being kind to others as he obeyed what he thought was a law not to work on the Sabbath.
I have never found a scripture that tells us "do not obey the letter of the law" but I find many scripture tells us the spirit of the law is much better. You can disobey the law of the Lord by obeying the letter of the law, like the Pharisee who disobeyed being kind to others as he obeyed what he thought was a law not to work on the Sabbath.