The False Teaching (& Truth) of what happens at the Rapture.

[ewq1938]

No.

"THAT DAY" (v.3a) refers to v.2's "THE DAY OF THE LORD" (NOT "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" event, v.1)...

Wrong. The coming of Christ AND the gathering is what the "day" refers to. You are wrongly isolating one events from the other when both happen the same day. All false doctrines do this type of damage to a text. Change definitions, add what isn't there, remove what is there and ignore what the word "and" means. This is what you get if you want to believe in pre-trib and the best part of the doctrine is you get to commit apostasia and be proud to say so!

There are two roads here. A narrow one called Post-trib lane and a very wide multi-lane highway called Pre-trib boulevard.

 

[cv5]

So you believe gt is second half of the ac being revealed or

"ac being reveal start 7 year begin"

This is correct. This would constitute the first seal being opened (Rev 6) aka the first birth pang.

 

[Jackson123]

o

"ac being reveal start 7 year begin"

This is correct. This would constitute the first seal being opened (Rev 6) aka the first birth pang.

And 2 Tess 2 say rapture will not happen before ac being reveal, so rapture after ac being reveal

 

[ewq1938]

o

And 2 Tess 2 say rapture will not happen before ac being reveal, so rapture after ac being reveal

Pretribbers think falling away means rapture. They reject the definition of the word apostasia.

 

[Jackson123]

Pretribbers think falling away means rapture. They reject the definition of the word apostasia.

Yep falling away is not rapture, rapture ai ascendency from the earth up to the air not all the way around

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Wrong. The coming of Christ AND the gathering is what the "day" refers to.

You are EQUATING Paul's Subject (v.1--which is "IN THE AIR") with the false conveyors' Subject (v.2--which is ONLY EVER located "ON THE EARTH"--"the DAY OF THE LORD"). They are NOT the SAME THING.

You are wrongly isolating one events from the other when both happen the same day.

Verse 1 IN ITS ENTIRETY speaks of ONE EVENT OCCURRING AT ONE SINGULAR MOMENT IN TIME ("our Rapture" event, when WE go "TO THE MEETING [NOUN] OF THE LORD *IN THE AIR*... and NO ONE ELSE, just US and the LORD *up there*!)



You are incorrectly surmising that "the day of the Lord" is a singular 24-hr day, or commences on the singular 24-hr day of His "RETURN" to the earth (Rev19); but Paul's information in 1Th5:1-3 completely obliterates such an incorrect notion, as I've spelled out numerous times in recent posts (not to mention, in abundant past posts): the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" is its "ARRIVAL" point in time!! (Jesus spoke of those... but you are IGNORING that fact!)

All false doctrines do this type of damage to a text.

... which you do not see that you yourself are doing.

Change definitions, add what isn't there, remove what is there and ignore what the word "and" means.

The phrase "the day of the Lord" (used throughout Scripture) NEVER is located anywhere other than ON THE EARTH... but you are insisting otherwise (when explaining the content of the "false claimants'" purporting, Paul tells about in v.2--which is ONLY about "that the DOTL IS PRESENT / IS ALREADY HERE [PERFECT indicative]"... NOTHING WHATSOEVER about "RAPTURE [IN THE AIR]"!!)

This is what you get if you want to believe in pre-trib and the best part of the doctrine is you get to commit apostasia and be proud to say so!

"apostasia" simply means "a standing away-from [away-from a previous standing]"... and CONTEXT determines "WHAT KIND" is meant.

In Acts 21:21, it is not the same "KIND" as here... IOW, in Acts 21:21 it is "a departure FROM MOSES"... but not HERE in this 2Th2:3 *context*.


We are NOT to INJECT "FROM THE FAITH" INTO this word... a word that, at its most basic definition, MEANS "DEPARTURE" (and in THIS case, it is "THE departure"... A DEFINITE one... and one that Paul had PREVIOUSLY MENTIONED in the text!! Not what he's saying further down in the text)

There are two roads here. A narrow one called Post-trib lane and a very wide multi-lane highway called Pre-trib boulevard.

In your imagination... sorry to say.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

ewq: and ignore what the word "and" means.

Verse 1's "and" has the two clauses (of v.1) referring to ONE EVENT at ONE POINT IN TIME (not two distinct points in time!)


Who's "ignoring" what "and" means, here?? Not me.


Maybe you've only ASSUMED I've not "connected" these two clauses (of v.1) into ONE POINT IN TIME (not DISTINCT points in time). I'm not.


His "coming / presence / parousia" in that verse (v.1) is clearly "IN THE AIR" (b/c referring to "OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM" UP THERE; NO ONE ELSE PARTICIPATES!!)

 

[ewq1938]

You are EQUATING Paul's Subject (v.1--which is "IN THE AIR") with the false conveyors' Subject (v.2--which is ONLY EVER located "ON THE EARTH"--"the DAY OF THE LORD"). They are NOT the SAME THING..

DOL isn't even in the passage.

Verse 1[/SIZE][/U][/B] IN ITS ENTIRETY speaks of ONE EVENT OCCURRING AT ONE SINGULAR MOMENT IN TIME

Verse one mentions two events, the coming of Christ and the gathering. Both take place on the same day.

"apostasia" simply means "a standing away-from [away-from a previous standing]"

Standing means a position one holds like believing in Christ. One can change the standing on that to believing in a false Christ. It still means to become an Apostate. It has nothing to do with standing on two legs or walking around or flying up into the clouds.

We are NOT to INJECT "FROM THE FAITH" INTO this word... a word that, at its most basic definition, MEANS "DEPARTURE" (and in THIS case, it is "THE departure"... A DEFINITE one... and one that Paul had PREVIOUSLY MENTIONED in the text!! Not what he's saying further down in the text)

The word means to fall away from a belief, ie: Apostasy. That's where all false doctrines lead to.

 

[cv5]

o

And 2 Tess 2 say rapture will not happen before ac being reveal, so rapture after ac being reveal

THE "apostasia" = THE departure

There's nothing about "faith" in that passage whatsoever. Though post-tribbers have fantasies about it's supposed existence.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Yep falling away is not rapture, rapture ai ascendency from the earth up to the air not all the way around

The Greeks had a word for "fall" [to fall - pipto]... the word in verse 3 (under present discussion) is NOT THAT WORD.

"a falling away" is not an accurate translation (and that translation leaves off "the definite article ['THE']" entirely, which IS and SHOULD BE in the text [but isn't translated], sad to say).




["THE DEPARTURE *FIRST*"... "[a] standing away-from [away-from a previous standing]" aka movement (just as in 3x REPEATED elsewhere in this very context)]

 

[ewq1938]

Verse 1's "and" has the two clauses (of v.1) referring to ONE EVENT at ONE POINT IN TIME (not two distinct points in time!)

The two events take place the same day.

His "coming / presence / parousia" in that verse (v.1) is clearly "IN THE AIR" (b/c referring to "OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM" UP THERE; NO ONE ELSE PARTICIPATES!!)

Stating something that everyone already understands is pointless.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The two events take place the same day.

THAT's WHAT I JUST SAID and have said IN EVERY POST where I've addressed VERSE 1!! OF COURSE!!

[ALL of v.1 occurs at ONE POINT IN TIME... NOT two distinct points in time, as if separated (by days or yrs)... NO!!]

TheDivineWatermark said:
Verse 1's "and" has the two clauses (of v.1) referring to ONE EVENT at ONE POINT IN TIME (not two distinct points in time!)

But VERSE 2's "false claim" [which is entirely EARTHLY-located] has NOTHING TO DO with that point (v.1's Subject)!! NADA!

 

[ewq1938]

The Greeks had a word for "fall" [to fall - pipto]... the word in verse 3 (under present discussion) is NOT THAT WORD.

"a falling away" is not an accurate translation

It is an accurate translation.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away (apostasia) first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

The word "falling away" is apostasia from where we get the words Apostate and Apostasy. Obviously it means a moral and spiritual religious "departure" not a physical departure.


Don't believe anything that says this event is the rapture. Here are 5 expert sources that prove the "departure" in 2 Thess 2:3 is the Apostasy:

Strong's definition G646

apostasia

ap-os-tas-ee'-ah

Feminine of the same as G647; defection from truth (properly the state), (“apostasy”) : - falling away, forsake.

Total KJV occurrences: 2


Thayer Definition:

G646 apostasia


1) a falling away, defection, apostasy

Part of Speech: noun feminine

A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: feminine of the same as G647

Citing in TDNT: 1:513, 88

Total KJV occurrences: 2





Abbott-Smith Manual Greek Lexicon of the New Testament

Apostasia

defection, apostasy, revolt; in late Gk. (MM, Exp., viii; Lft., Notes, 111; Cremer, 308) for cl. ?p?stas?? , freq. in sense of political revolt, in LXX (e.g. Joshua 22:22, 2 Chronicles 29:19, Jeremiah 2:19) and NT always of religious apostasy: Ac21:21, II Th 2:3.







Liddell and Scott:

A defection, revolt, v.l. in D.H.7.1, J.Vit.10, Plu.Galb.1; esp. in religious sense, rebellion against God, apostasy, LXX Jo.22.22, 2 Ep.Th.2.3 .





Winer's Grammar:



Apostasia, a falling away, defection, apostasy; in the Bible namely, from the true religion: Acts 21:21; 2 Thessalonians 2:3 ; ((Joshua 22:22; 2 Chronicles 29:19; 2 Chronicles 33:19); Jeremiah 2:19; Jeremiah 3629) 32 Complutensian; 1 Macc. 2:15). The earlier Greeks say Apostasis; see Lob. ad Phryn., p. 528; (Winer's Grammar, 24).





The only other use of this word in the bible was people departing from the teachings of Moses which is an Apostasy from his teachings. Neither use has anything to do with simply going somewhere physically.

 

[ewq1938]

THAT's WHAT I JUST SAID and have said IN EVERY POST where I've addressed VERSE 1!! OF COURSE!!
!

No, you always say ONE EVENT rather than two events. Paul is talking about coming of Christ and the gathering which is rapture. Those TWO EVENTS will not happen until TWO OTHER EVENTS HAPPEN FIRST.

1. The Apostasy which is a falling away from Christianity.
2. The revealing of man of sin.

Obviously Pretrib is wrong on what apostasia means and wrong about a rapture happening before the man of sin is revealed.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

No, you always say ONE EVENT rather than two events. Paul is talking about coming of Christ and the gathering which is rapture. Those TWO EVENTS will not happen until TWO OTHER EVENTS HAPPEN FIRST.
1. The Apostasy which is a falling away from Christianity.
2. The revealing of man of sin.

Not what he said.

He said "that day" (the one he JUST MENTIONED in v.2, which is an EARTHLY TIME PERIOD) "will not be present until..."


[that is the GRAMMATICALLY CORRECT interpretation ^ ... whereas yours IGNORES v.2 (the EARTHLY TIME PERIOD the false claimants said "IS PRESENT / IS ALREADY HERE") in ascertaining what v.3a refers BACK TO... it does NOT refer back to the two clauses OF VERSE 1!! ("our RAPTURE [IN THE AIR]" event), grammatically speaking!]

Obviously Pretrib is wrong on what apostasia means and wrong about a rapture happening before the man of sin is revealed.

 

[ewq1938]

Not what he said.

Yes it is what he said.

 

[Heaven_Bound]

THE "apostasia" = THE departure

There's nothing about "faith" in that passage whatsoever. Though post-tribbers have fantasies about it's supposed existence.

What is the Biblical meaning of apostasy?

1 : an act of refusing to continue to follow, obey, or recognize a religious faith.
2 : abandonment of a previous loyalty : defection.

Apostasia - New Testament Greek Lexicon - Bible Study Tools

Apostasia ; Definition ; a falling away, defection, apostasy ; King James Word Usage - Total: 2 ; to forsake +

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

DOL isn't even in the passage.

I listed something like TWENTY-FIVE versions where v.2 shows as "the day of the Lord"...

https://biblehub.com/text/2_thessalonians/2-2.htm



https://biblehub.com/parallel/2_thessalonians/2-2.htm

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

What is the Biblical meaning of apostasy?

1 : an act of refusing to continue to follow, obey, or recognize a religious faith.
2 : abandonment of a previous loyalty : defection.

Apostasia - New Testament Greek Lexicon - Bible Study Tools
Apostasia ; Definition ; a falling away, defection, apostasy ; King James Word Usage - Total: 2 ; to forsake +

Check out one of my [many] past posts on this Subject:

Post #3317 (about "Liddell and Scott's Greek-English Lexicon (1871)" and its definition of this word under discussion [scroll down a bit to see this in my response to ewq's post, there] - https://christianchat.com/threads/h...ular-in-the-modern-church.201091/post-4707863









[P.S. "to forsake" is a VERB... but our word under present discussion is a NOUN = D ]



"apo stasia" = "apo stasis" (the one being a later form of the other, but otherwise identical...)... "a standing away-from [away-from a previous standing]" or "departure"

 

[ewq1938]

I listed something like TWENTY-FIVE versions where v.2 shows as "the day of the Lord"...

The manuscripts the KJV are based upon uses day of Christ not day of the Lord. The Father and the Son are both called Lord but only Christ is the Christ so Christ is the most appropriate choice here.

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;


The coming of Christ is the one and only coming in which the gathering unto Christ takes place. That is the rapture and Paul clearly says the coming and gathering (rapture) will not happen until two other events happen first.

That's what Paul is saying, but pre-trib mangles it into nonsense.