The False Teaching (& Truth) of what happens at the Rapture.

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Jan 31, 2021
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The resurrection is likened to seed sown as a crop. There are three parts of the harvest: firstfruits, main harvest, and the gleanings.
The Bible speaks of the resurrection in the singular. There are not stages. Only one.

The "firstfruits" is jesus Himself, who was the FIRST human to receive a glorified body. All the rest of the saved receive their glorified bodies "when He comes", as 1 Cor 15:23 says.

And Rev 20:5 very plainly describes the resurrection of trib martyrs as the FIRST resurrection, so that's when ALL believers will get a glorified body.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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The body of Christ is resurrected before, and the saints that died for the testimony of Christ and did not take the mark will be raised after the tribulation to reign with Christ.
There are no verses to support a pretrib resurrection/rapture. And there is only one resurrection for the saved.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Aug 3, 2018
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And Rev 20:5 very plainly describes the resurrection of trib martyrs as the FIRST resurrection, so that's when ALL believers will get a glorified body.
...and do you consider the "2W" to be "TRIB martyrs" since they are killed in/during the Trib years (at the 6th Trumpet events)?

I forget... I think you said that the "2W" will ascend up into Heaven PRIOR TO the later point in time when they will [later] receive "glorified bodies" (supposedly) at the same time as all the rest of the saints (in your "post-trib" viewpoint)... is that correct, that you see it that way?

[IOW, they are neither "the dead in Christ" nor the "we which are alive and remain unto"... is that how you see it?]

And there is only one resurrection for the saved.
Hmm... the "2W" will be resurrected (and ascend up into Heaven) at the "6th Trumpet [events] / 2nd Woe"... which is PRIOR TO the "7th Trumpet" (your viewpoint of the "end-point" of the Trib years, i.e. His Second Coming). But it seems you've suggested that "ALL" are resurrected at ONE POINT IN TIME, according to how you are reading Rev20:5.
 

John146

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Jan 13, 2016
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The "firstfruits" is jesus Himself, who was the FIRST human to receive a glorified body. All the rest of the saved receive their glorified bodies "when He comes", as 1 Cor 15:23 says.
You are admitting that there are at least two separate resurrections...if Jesus is the firstfruits and "all the rest" is the harvest...who makes up the gleanings? Why the term "firstfruits" if not being compared to a crop?
 
Jul 23, 2018
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It isn't AFTER PRE TRIB it is AFTER DEATH that we go to heaven. You are taking what is written for one group and applying it to another

HERE LET ME SHOW YOU (AND EVERYONE ELSE THAT READS THIS) THAT MISTAKE. IT IS SUPER SIMPLE. I THINK WE HAVE DONE THIS BEFORE, HAVEN'T WE? IF YOU COULD POST THE SAME 5 VERSES AND MAKE IT WORK, I WILL BECOME A BELIEVER.


1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which ARE ASLEEP, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

MAYBE WE AREN'T SEEING EYE TO EYE BECAUSE YOU BELIEVE 'THE CHURCH' is being referred to as the 'ARE ASLEEP'.

Do you believe the church is 'asleep'? Do you not know that is how those who have died are spoken of and NOT THE CHURCH?

1Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.


AGAIN, MAYBE THIS IS WHERE YOUR CONFUSION COMES IN,

BUT IT IS THOSE WHO ARE ASLEEP WHO CHRIST WILL BE BRINGING WITH HIM WHEN HE GETS ON THE HORSES AND COMES FOR THE DAY OF VENGEANCE, THE LORDS DAY.

AS YOU WILL NOTICE THE ALIVE AND REMAINING ARE STILL ON EARTH AND CHRIST IS RETURNING.

SO THERE IS NO REASON TO GO TO HEAVEN THEN AS HE IS COMING TO EARTH TO RULE WITH A ROD OF IRON. HENCE THE ARMIES COMING WITH HIM.



1Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

THIS ALIVE AND REMAINING IS THE CHURCH BUT AS YOU CAN SEE THE LORD IS ALREADY COMING.

AND WHO is coming with Him, who IS HE BRINGING WITH HIM?

THE 'ASLEEP' or those who died AND DID GO TO HEAVEN are coming BACK WITH HIM.


1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first

1Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

SINCE CHRIST is coming to the earth as the LAST TRUMP has sounded

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.


THAT IS WHY IT IS 'IN THE AIR' AND NOT

unto God or to paradise.


Here is the REAL QUESTION you should be asking. HOW is it possible for me to write these things and there is nothing conflicting IF it isn't truth? I could continue to add Scripture upon Scripture to this and it would never conflict.



HOW ABOUT THIS.

YOU FIND ME ONE (1) VERSE IN ALL OF SCRIPTURE THAT RENDERS ANY OF THIS UNTRUE (THAT DOESN'T REQUIRE ANY CONJECTURE ON YOUR PART.) JUST ONE VERSE THAT PLAINLY STATES THAT THIS IS IMPOSSIBLE.
You put a nice spin on the whole thing.

Got it out of whack.

It says we are raptured.

We see the saints in heaven and the bride has become the wife in heaven , during the gt.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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FreeGrace2 said:
And Rev 20:5 very plainly describes the resurrection of trib martyrs as the FIRST resurrection, so that's when ALL believers will get a glorified body.
...and do you consider the "2W" to be "TRIB martyrs" since they are killed in/during the Trib years (at the 6th Trumpet events)?
No, I don't. Heb 9:27 says it is appointed ONCE for man to die and then the judgment. There are 2 men who never died physically back in the OT. Enoch and Elijah. Most scholars believe they will be the 2 witnesses brought back to earth to witness. They will finally die physically, and raised to life, but in their natural bodies, since there is no indication that they receive glorified bodies.

I forget... I think you said that the "2W" will ascend up into Heaven PRIOR TO the later point in time when they will [later] receive "glorified bodies" (supposedly) at the same time as all the rest of the saints (in your "post-trib" viewpoint)... is that correct, that you see it that way?
I do.

[IOW, they are neither "the dead in Christ" nor the "we which are alive and remain unto"... is that how you see it?]
When they will be killed, then they WILL BE "the dead in Christ".

Hmm... the "2W" will be resurrected (and ascend up into Heaven) at the "6th Trumpet [events] / 2nd Woe"... which is PRIOR TO the "7th Trumpet" (your viewpoint of the "end-point" of the Trib years, i.e. His Second Coming). But it seems you've suggested that "ALL" are resurrected at ONE POINT IN TIME, according to how you are reading Rev20:5.
To be clear, when I speak of resurrection, I mean receiving a glorified body. All believers are resurrected at the same event.

Matt 22:30, Luke 14:14, Acts 24:15, 1 Cor 15:23. All of these show a single resurrection, Acts shows one each for the saved and unsaved.
 
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FreeGrace2 said:
The "firstfruits" is jesus Himself, who was the FIRST human to receive a glorified body. All the rest of the saved receive their glorified bodies "when He comes", as 1 Cor 15:23 says.
You are admitting that there are at least two separate resurrections...if Jesus is the firstfruits and "all the rest" is the harvest...who makes up the gleanings? Why the term "firstfruits" if not being compared to a crop?
I don't buy into the crop theory. Matt 22:30, Luke 14:14 and 1 Cor 15:23 speak of the resurrection of the saved in the singular.

Jesus' resurrection is the first and therefore called "firstfruits" of resurrection. No crop going on here.

Acts 26:23 - that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”

This is why Paul used the term "firstfruits" for the resurrection of Jesus. He is the first one to receive a glorified body.

For saved people there is only a singular resurrection. That's how all the verses that speak of resurrection say it.

So I ignore "gleanings" as part of resurrection.



What verse that mentions gleanings indicates a separate resurrection of the saved, in your view? Thanks.
 
Dec 15, 2021
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[I assume you agree these are not "SNATCHED / CAUGHT UP / RAPTURED"... and that they ENTER the MK age in their mortal bodies capable of reproducing / bearing children... am I reading you right?]

How would that be possible? NO FIRST DEATH BUT A SECOND? Who is making the rules here? Do you think God can't count? Or maybe He just didn't know how to say what He meant?

Do you believe that those who took the mark of the beast can remain alive in an earthy FLESH body when Christ returns His BRIGHTNESS destroying Satan?

Seriously, how would the 'lake of fire' be the Second Death without a first? Because that would make the second death the first death. Thinking about that would it be fair for some to go into the lake of fire in a spiritual mortal body while others get to go in in a flesh mortal body? I don't see how that could be JUST. One man can kill and the other man can't kill.

Yes, I am thinking that EVERY FLESH BODY MUST DIE and resurrect to either immortality or mortality. (except the final moment alive and remaining)


So yes, THERE CAN BE NO 'marked' people left or else they will become a part of the alive and remaining and then they would be EVER WITH THE LORD and THAT IS NOT POSSIBLE.



AND then there is this problem

1 Corinth 15:50
This now I say brothers that flesh and blood the kingdom of God to inherit not is able nor the decay the immortality does inherit.

Which would mean that there CAN BE NO SLEEP/DEATH/IN THE GRAVE WAITING


BECAUSE DECAY DOESN'T INHERIT IMMORTALITY.


5356. phthora ►
Strong's Concordance
phthora: destruction, corruption
Original Word: φθορά, ᾶς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: phthora
Phonetic Spelling: (fthor-ah')
Definition: destruction, corruption
Usage: corruption, destruction, decay, rottenness, decomposition.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 5356 phthorá (from 5351 /phtheírō) – destruction from internal corruption (deterioration, decay); "rottenness, perishableness, corruption, decay, decomposition" (Souter). See 5351 (phteírō).
 
Jul 23, 2018
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IF THE BIBLE did say so then you would present it NOT IN YOUR WORDS BUT IN GODS.

EVERYTHING YOU POSTED IS BASED NOT ON WHAT IS WRITTEN BUT ON CONJECTURE FROM MAN.


THANK YOU AGAIN FOR ALLOWING ME THE OPPORTUNITY TO PUT FORTH MORE LIGHT ON

WHY PRE TRIB RAPTURE IS A DOCTRINE THAT EVEN THOSE WHO PROFESS TO BELIEVE

CANT FIND SCRIPTURE FOR.
Incorrect
Pretrib fits like a glove.

You can unpack or challenge our verses but dont say we have none.there is no reason to debate if honesty is off the table.
 
Jul 23, 2018
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It isn't AFTER PRE TRIB it is AFTER DEATH that we go to heaven. You are taking what is written for one group and applying it to another

HERE LET ME SHOW YOU (AND EVERYONE ELSE THAT READS THIS) THAT MISTAKE. IT IS SUPER SIMPLE. I THINK WE HAVE DONE THIS BEFORE, HAVEN'T WE? IF YOU COULD POST THE SAME 5 VERSES AND MAKE IT WORK, I WILL BECOME A BELIEVER.


1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which ARE ASLEEP, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

MAYBE WE AREN'T SEEING EYE TO EYE BECAUSE YOU BELIEVE 'THE CHURCH' is being referred to as the 'ARE ASLEEP'.

Do you believe the church is 'asleep'? Do you not know that is how those who have died are spoken of and NOT THE CHURCH?

1Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.


AGAIN, MAYBE THIS IS WHERE YOUR CONFUSION COMES IN,

BUT IT IS THOSE WHO ARE ASLEEP WHO CHRIST WILL BE BRINGING WITH HIM WHEN HE GETS ON THE HORSES AND COMES FOR THE DAY OF VENGEANCE, THE LORDS DAY.

AS YOU WILL NOTICE THE ALIVE AND REMAINING ARE STILL ON EARTH AND CHRIST IS RETURNING.

SO THERE IS NO REASON TO GO TO HEAVEN THEN AS HE IS COMING TO EARTH TO RULE WITH A ROD OF IRON. HENCE THE ARMIES COMING WITH HIM.



1Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

THIS ALIVE AND REMAINING IS THE CHURCH BUT AS YOU CAN SEE THE LORD IS ALREADY COMING.

AND WHO is coming with Him, who IS HE BRINGING WITH HIM?

THE 'ASLEEP' or those who died AND DID GO TO HEAVEN are coming BACK WITH HIM.


1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first

1Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

SINCE CHRIST is coming to the earth as the LAST TRUMP has sounded

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.


THAT IS WHY IT IS 'IN THE AIR' AND NOT

unto God or to paradise.


Here is the REAL QUESTION you should be asking. HOW is it possible for me to write these things and there is nothing conflicting IF it isn't truth? I could continue to add Scripture upon Scripture to this and it would never conflict.



HOW ABOUT THIS.

YOU FIND ME ONE (1) VERSE IN ALL OF SCRIPTURE THAT RENDERS ANY OF THIS UNTRUE (THAT DOESN'T REQUIRE ANY CONJECTURE ON YOUR PART.) JUST ONE VERSE THAT PLAINLY STATES THAT THIS IS IMPOSSIBLE.
"""AS YOU WILL NOTICE THE ALIVE AND REMAINING ARE STILL ON EARTH AND CHRIST IS RETURNING."""

Yes.
Pretrib
And the rapture pretrib.

You have shown nothing at all to the contrary
 
Jul 23, 2018
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FreeGrace2 said:
The "firstfruits" is jesus Himself, who was the FIRST human to receive a glorified body. All the rest of the saved receive their glorified bodies "when He comes", as 1 Cor 15:23 says.

I don't buy into the crop theory. Matt 22:30, Luke 14:14 and 1 Cor 15:23 speak of the resurrection of the saved in the singular.

Jesus' resurrection is the first and therefore called "firstfruits" of resurrection. No crop going on here.

Acts 26:23 - that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”

This is why Paul used the term "firstfruits" for the resurrection of Jesus. He is the first one to receive a glorified body.

For saved people there is only a singular resurrection. That's how all the verses that speak of resurrection say it.

So I ignore "gleanings" as part of resurrection.



What verse that mentions gleanings indicates a separate resurrection of the saved, in your view? Thanks.
Firstfruits is a problem.
Glad i van read it and embrace it.

I do it differently

I use the bible to form doctrine.
Firstfruits is a dynamic if heaven.

It's Not going away to make something else fit
 
Dec 29, 2021
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"""AS YOU WILL NOTICE THE ALIVE AND REMAINING ARE STILL ON EARTH AND CHRIST IS RETURNING."""

Yes.
Pretrib
And the rapture pretrib.

You have shown nothing at all to the contrary
Actually, the key WORD caught up in the AIR, not the Heavens, puts Paul's Version exactly when Christ claims He Returns!

Learn Your Koine Greek, it's getting ridiculous reading your Hellenized Classical Greek interpretations that is 100% heretical!
 
Jul 23, 2018
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Actually, the key WORD caught in the AIR, not the Heavens, puts Paul's Version exactly when Christ claims He Returns!

Learn Your Koine Greek, it's getting ridiculous reading your Hellenized Classical Greek interpretations that is 100% heretical!
Yes air.
Fits perfectly
You have no point at all
 
Jul 23, 2018
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"3 ...so that in whatever place I am, there ye may be also." (the very next verse saying, "4 And to the place I am going, ye know the way.") Don't forget the verse which states, (Jn3:13) "... even the Son of man WHICH/WHO IS IN HEAVEN" (present tense; but He stated this while standing on the earth :unsure: )




Anyway, on to my point:

Some of us believe "the man child" of Rev12:5 / "the male [G730 - arsena / arren]" of Rev12:13 IS "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (not speaking of Jesus Christ exclusively).,, "the woman which HAD BROUGHT FORTH THE MALE [G730 - arsena / arren]" Rev12:13, where verse 5 says, and her child was "CAUGHT UP [G726 - harpazo] TO GOD AND TO HIS THRONE"


...and where the FIRST PART OF THAT VERSE speaks of "who shall rule all the nations with an iron sceptre," but bear also in mind what Rev2:26-27 had already said, "[he that overcometh (that's the SAVED, as I'd mentioned)]... to him will I give power/authority over the nations, and he shall rule them with a rod/sceptre of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: EVEN AS I RECEIVED OF MY FATHER"






So, Rev12:13's "[the woman] which HAD BROUGHT FORTH the male [G730]" speaks of the male having been born PRIOR TO this mid-trib point in the chronology, that is the general chpt 12 setting; and these verses about "the man child / the male [G730]" correspond with:


Micah 5:3 (whereas v.2 speaks of Jesus' OWN birth, verse 3 does NOT) -

Berean Study Bible [to help show context]
Therefore Israel will be abandoned until she who is in labor has given birth; then the rest of His brothers will return to the children of Israel.

King James Bible
Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel.



[colors showing the 3 distinct persons of BOTH this Micah 5:3 text and the Rev12:5,13,[17] text to which it corresponds]
Have you ever encountered that doctrine of keirnomos?

Skipping around to the gwtj?

A doctrine where nothing is what it seems?
 
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