Doctrine of Unconditional Election

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Grandpa

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Jun 24, 2011
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This is just another smokescreen, trying to cover up the inability to prove your doctrine from any verse.


How about doing this to the verses I've just shared with you. Analyze them and see what is being taught.


It really doesn't matter how many verses you quote, none of them say anything about election to salvation. And only 1 even mentions election. So none of the other verses are even about election.

And the one you quoted, Eph 1:4, refers to believers being elected...to be holy and blameless. Which is service to God.

The word "us" in "God chose us in Him" is clearly definded in v.19 as "us who believe". That means believers.

I've given plenty of verses about the purpose of election. In all of them, the purpose has to do with service, and NONE of them is about salvation.

How do you explain the Bible calling Jesus Christ the Chosen One? Was He chosen to be saved? No, of course not.

And what about 1 Tim 5:21 - I charge you, in the sight of God and Christ Jesus and the elect angels, to keep these instructions without partiality, and to do nothing out of favoritism.? Are angels chosen for salvation?

In fact, the Bible is totally silent on the subject of angels and salvation. So let's not presume about that.
Romans 8:24-30
24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
 
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Continuation of verses that prove that election is to service.

That 1,000 word limit is a bummer.

III Paul was elected to service:
Acts 9:15 - But the Lord said to Ananias, “Go! This man is my chosen instrument to proclaim my name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the people of Israel.

Acts 20:24 - However, I consider my life worth nothing to me, if only I may finish the race and complete the task the Lord Jesus has given me - the task of testifying to the gospel of God’s grace.

Acts 22:10 - "'What shall I do, Lord?' I asked. "'Get up,' the Lord said, 'and go into Damascus. There you will be told all that you have been assigned to do.’

Acts 22:14, 15 - 14 “Then he said: ‘The God of our ancestors has chosen you to know his will and to see the Righteous One and to hear words from his mouth. 15 You will be his witness to all people of what you have seen and heard.

Acts 26:16 - ‘Now get up and stand on your feet. I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen and will see of me.

Acts 27:23 - Last night an angel of the God whose I am and whom I serve stood beside me

Rom 1:9 - God, whom I serve with my whole heart in preaching the gospel of His Son, is my witness how constantly I remember you in my prayers at all times; and I pray that now at last nay God’s will the way may be opened for me to come to you.

Rom 15:17 - Therefore I glory in Christ Jesus in my service to God.

Rom 15:25 - Now, however, I am on my way to Jerusalem in the service of the Lord’s people there.

1 Cor 3:5 - What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task.

1 Cor 4:1 - This, then, is how you ought to regard us: as servants of Christ and as those entrusted with the mysteries God has revealed.

2 Cor 4:5 - For we do not preach ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus’ sake.

2 Cor 11:8 - I robbed other churches by receiving support from them so as to serve you.

Gal 1:10 - A I now trying to win the approval of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ.

Gal 1:16 - to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not consult any man

Eph 3:7,8,9 7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of His power 8 Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things.

Col 1:25 - I have become its (the Church) servant by the commission God gave me to present to you the word of God in its fullness— direct reference to Acts 9:15. Also v.23

1 Tim 1:12 - I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has given me strength, that he considered me trustworthy, appointing me to his service.

1 Tim 2:7 - And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—and a true and faithful teacher of the Gentiles.

2 Tim 1:9 - He has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time,

2 Tim 1:11 - And of this gospel I was appointed a herald and an apostle and a teacher.

IV Angels were elected to service:
1 Tim 5:21 - I charge you, in the sight of God and Christ Jesus and the elect angels, to keep these instructions without partiality, and to do nothing out of favoritism.

Heb 1:7 - In speaking of the angels he says, “He makes his angels spirits, and his servants flames of fire.”

Heb 1:14 - Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?

Rev 19:10 - At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers and sisters who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For it is the Spirit of prophecy who bears testimony to Jesus.”

Rev 22:8,9 8 I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at thefeet of the angel who had been showing them to me. 9 But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your fellow prophets and with all who keep the words of this scroll. Worship God!”

V Church Age believers were elected to service:
Eph 1:4 - for He chose (elected) us (believers) in Him, before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in His sight
1 Peter 2:9 - But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His wonderful light.

There are 7 different examples of election, and none are for salvation:
Examples of Election
1. Election of Christ: Isa 42:1 "Behold, My Servant, whom I uphold; My chosen one in whom My soul delights. I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the nations.
Matt 12:18 "Behold, My Servant whom I have chosen; My Beloved in whom My soul is well-pleased; I will put My Spirit upon Him, And He shall proclaim justice to the Gentiles.
Luke 9:35 And a voice came out of the cloud, saying, "This is My Son, My Chosen One; listen to Him!"
Luke 23:35 And the people stood by, looking on. And even the rulers were sneering at Him, saying, "He saved others; let Him save Himself if this is the Christ of God, His Chosen One.
1 Peter 2:6 For this is contained in Scripture: "Behold I lay in Zion a choice stone, a precious corner stone, And he who believes in Him shall not be disappointed."

2. Election of Israel: Amos 3:2 "You only have I chosen among all the families of the earth; Therefore, I will punish you for all your iniquities."
Deut 7:6 "For you are a holy people to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.
Luke 11:54 “He has helped his servant Israel, remembering to be merciful”
3. Election of Angels: 1 Tim 5:21 I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of His chosen angels, to maintain these principles without bias, doing nothing in a spirit of partiality.
4. Election of the Church or body of Christ: Eph 1:4a just as He chose us (believers) in Him… v.19 defines “us” as “those who believe”. 1 Pet 2:9 - But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nations people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His wonderful light.
5. Other elections:
Paul: Acts 9:15 But the Lord said to him, "Go, for he is a chosen instrument of Mine, to bear My name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel;
1 Tim 1:12 I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has given me strength, that he considered me trustworthy, appointing me to his service.
Apostles: John 6:70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!” {Judas was chosen to betray the Lord}
John 15:16 "You did not choose Me, but I chose you , and appointed you, that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask of the Father in My name, He may give to you.
1 Cor 1:27-28 27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are,
Acts 10:41 - He was not seen by all the people, but by witnesses whom God had already chosen—by us who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead.

VI Jewish Nation was chosen for service
Isa 41:9 - I took you from the ends of the earth, from its farthest corners I called you. I said, ‘You are my servant’; I have chosen you and have not rejected you.

Isa 43:10 - “You are my witnesses,” declares the LORD, “and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me.

Isa 43;20,21 20 The wild animals honor me, the jackals and the owls, because I provide water in the wilderness and streams in the wasteland, to give drink to my people, my chosen, 21 the people I formed for myself that they may proclaim my praise.

Isa 44:2 - This is what the LORD says— he who made you, who formed you in the womb, and who will help you: Do not be afraid, Jacob, my servant, Jeshurun, whom I have chosen.

Isa 45:4 - For the sake of Jacob my servant, of Israel my chosen, I summon you by name and bestow on you a title of honor, though you do not acknowledge me.

Isa 49:3 - He said to me, “You are my servant, Israel, in whom I will display my splendor.”

None of these examples of election were for salvation. All of them are for service.

I could have missed a few verses, but you get the idea of what election is about from these verses.
 

Grandpa

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Jun 24, 2011
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Proof that election is those who are saved;

Romans 8:24-30
24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
 
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Proof that election is those who are saved;

Romans 8:24-30
24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
How come none of these verses even mentions election or "choosing"??

In the 2 posts I just shared, EVERY verse is about being chosen or elected, or about service, which is what election is for.
 

John146

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Jan 13, 2016
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Trusting, spiritual hearing, and believing in Christ, do not cause salvation, they are from salvation. They are through God's work not ours.
Yes sir it does, and not only that...after hearing and believing, one is sealed with the Holy Spirit which is the guarantee of the future adoption, the redemption of the body.
 

John146

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Jan 13, 2016
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29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren
Being conformed to the image of His Son is not salvation. It is referring to the future adoption, the redemption of the body, verse 23. Before God determines one's future, He must first know him. Once He knows him, foreknew, God then determines his future.

Predestination is a beautiful doctrine for the believer. It let's the believer know their future is to be adopted and conformed to the image of Jesus Christ.

Romans 3:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
 
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What difference does it make whether they were "novices" or not"? Everyone besides the apostles were novices at that time - it was irrelevant to their salvation.
It was not "irrelevant" to whom Paul wrote. :rolleyes: We are to discern to whom God has written what He has written. Just because you deem something "irrelevant" does not mean it truly is "irrelevant".


Paul wrote the letter to the Ephesians to those who were "faithful in Christ Jesus" (Eph 1:1). These are established, faithful believers. In 1 Cor, Paul wrote to babes in Christ ... Paul refers to the believers in Corinth as "carnal" and Paul could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ (1 Cor 3:1). Perhaps you need to go back and learn what is written in Corinthians before you can truly comprehend what is written in Ephesians ...




Trusting, spiritual hearing, and believing in Christ, do not cause salvation, they are from salvation. They are through God's work not ours.
Ephesians 1:13 In whom [the Lord Jesus Christ] ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise

you trusted after you heard ... you were sealed after you believed
you believed = faith
you were sealed = salvation




rogerg said:
They are through God's work not ours.
There is no dispute concerning salvation being wholly "God's work not ours".

The only reason you bring up this point is because you believe "faith" is some sort of "work" on the part of mankind ... and that is because you do not believe what is written in Scripture:

Romans 4:


2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.


Clearly, faith is not works according to God's reckoning of what is not works.

Align your beliefs with Scripture. Quit manipulating Scripture to fit your dogma and quit bringing up your straw man argument that I (and others) do not believe salvation is wholly the work of God.



 

rogerg

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This is just another smokescreen, trying to cover up the inability to prove your doctrine from any verse.
Okay, if that's the best you're got, you're unserious so I'm not going to engage with you further on this
 

Nehemiah6

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Jul 18, 2017
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But Titus 2:11 actually says that the grace of God offers salvation to everyone. I believe that.
Well then it follows that Christ died for all mankind, God desires the salvation of all mankind, and God commands all men everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30). Which does not mean that all will believe. This is where the wide gate and the broad way vs the narrow gate and the narrow way come in.
 
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Romans 8:24-30
24 For we are saved by hope
Do you know that faith is the foundation upon which we hope?

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

The word "substance" is translated from the Greek word hypóstasis which means confidence, firm trust, assurance.


So undergirding the word "hope" in Romans 8:24 is the faith factor (upon which our hope rests) ...



Romans 8:25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it. :cool:


 
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FreeGrace2 said:
This is just another smokescreen, trying to cover up the inability to prove your doctrine from any verse.
Okay, if that's the best you're got, you're unserious so I'm not going to engage with you further on this
I take it you somehow totally missed my posts 2100 and 2102 then.

I gave you many examples of who were elected and for WHAT. Jesus Christ, nation of Israel, angels, NT believers, disciples, including the UNSAVED Judas, and others.

So your snark about how unserious I am is totally bogus. What seems clear is that you have no interest (you're unserious) in discussing any of these verses that clearly show who was elected and for what.

And, as anyone who reads the posts, NONE of them are about salvation.

You simply have an agenda to push a doctrine you believe in but CANNOT be found in the Word of God.
 
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Well then it follows that Christ died for all mankind, God desires the salvation of all mankind, and God commands all men everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30). Which does not mean that all will believe. This is where the wide gate and the broad way vs the narrow gate and the narrow way come in.
Amen!
 

rogerg

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Jul 13, 2021
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OK, then. I'm going to fill this post with plenty of verses that show JUST THAT.

You are free to read them if you want. Or avoid them if you want. But you'll have them, none the less. So you will be fully accountable for what the Bible actually says about election. Here are 5 pages of verses for your viewing pleasure.
I read them, and you did post quite a few, but I didn't find any demonstrating that election means service -- perhaps I missed them. I did see that Christians are called to service-- those who are elected and have become saved are called to be servants but that is a different topic. But, I don't think you've demonstrated a relationship between election and election to service - at least not that I could find.
Why don't you reply to this by posting just a few you consider the best to demonstrative of the doctrine of election meaning service? Remember, not those verses that state the elect are to be servants - of course, there are many like that as those saved are commanded to be the servants of the Gospel- but verses that specifically associate election to election to service. I think that maybe you are artificially assuming/imposing a relationship on election that isn't specifically mentioned or documented in/by the Bible.

Based upon the below, I don't find that election is election to service, do you? They demonstrate to me the elect as a very special people whom God had exclusively made, justified and claimed for His own purpose.

[Mat 24:24, 31 KJV]
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect. ...
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
[Luk 18:7 KJV]
7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?
[Rom 8:33 KJV]
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? [It is] God that justifieth.
[Col 3:12 KJV]

12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
[1Pe 1:2 KJV]
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
[Mar 13:22, 27 KJV]
22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if [it were] possible, even the elect. ...
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
[Tit 1:1 KJV] 1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

[Rom 11:5-6 KJV]
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

[Rom 9:11, 16, 18 KJV]
11 (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) ...
16 So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. ...
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.

[Eph 1:4 KJV]
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
 

brightfame52

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Nov 21, 2020
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FreeGrace2 said:
And that is what I'm asking for. WHERE does the Bible teach that election is for salvation?

You haven't even tried to provide verses that support your view, so how about waiting until you actually give me the opportunity to see the verses that you believe teach what you believe.

Amazing. In spite of my repeated requests for verses that actually show election to salvation, you only claim that you already have.

If I was challenged about not having any verses that support what I claim, I'd be filling my posts with them EVERY TIME, to refute such empty claims, or lies.

Why haven't you just repeated what you claim you have already done? Should be easy enough.
You have been shown by me and a few others scripture that indicates unconditional election to salvation and you flip it off.
 

Grandpa

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Jun 24, 2011
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How come none of these verses even mentions election or "choosing"??

In the 2 posts I just shared, EVERY verse is about being chosen or elected, or about service, which is what election is for.
Predestination, called, and justified is not election or being chosen?

I don't think your comprehension skills are up to snuff for this conversation.
 

Grandpa

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Jun 24, 2011
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Being conformed to the image of His Son is not salvation. It is referring to the future adoption, the redemption of the body, verse 23. Before God determines one's future, He must first know him. Once He knows him, foreknew, God then determines his future.

Predestination is a beautiful doctrine for the believer. It let's the believer know their future is to be adopted and conformed to the image of Jesus Christ.

Romans 3:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Now that's just sad. For you.

Maybe re-read those verses. I'll post them again for you.

Romans 8:29-30
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
 

Grandpa

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Jun 24, 2011
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Do you know that faith is the foundation upon which we hope?

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

The word "substance" is translated from the Greek word hypóstasis which means confidence, firm trust, assurance.

So undergirding the word "hope" in Romans 8:24 is the faith factor (upon which our hope rests) ...



Romans 8:25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it. :cool:
Did you know that faith is from God?

Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

John 3:27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.
 

John146

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Now that's just sad. For you.

Maybe re-read those verses. I'll post them again for you.

Romans 8:29-30
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Being conformed to the image of His Son is not salvation. It is referring to the future adoption, the redemption of the body, verse 23. Before God determines one's future, He must first know him. Once He knows him, foreknew, God then determines his future.

Predestination is a beautiful doctrine for the believer. It let's the believer know their future is to be adopted and conformed to the image of Jesus Christ.

Romans 3:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
 

John146

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I cherish a red X...it lets my know I'm on the right track.:cool:
 
Jan 31, 2021
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I read them, and you did post quite a few, but I didn't find any demonstrating that election means service -- perhaps I missed them.
Every verse either plainly linked election to service or demonstrated that those elected, like Paul, were appointed to service, etc.

Apparently your vision needs some help. Those verses are quite clear. If we were face to face, I would actually READ then to you, so your eyes wouldn't be such a hindrance and you would HEAR them.

If you then would say the same thing, means even your hearing is faulty.

Even the non-demon angels are called "elect" and I PROVED that means they are in service, as the accompanying verses plainly say.

But your ears and eyes are not open, so it doesn't matter what Scripture says. Your mind has already been made up.