TONGUES is a precious gift from God

[Rhomphaeam]

I see that he has a New Zealand Elim church background. That Pentecostal denomination is one of the more conservative denominations in the Pentecostal movement. When I get more time, I will view one of his messages on YouTube. On first impression, he seems to be worth listening to.

Yes - I asked because you and I have exchanged before in another place. You made reference here #1,231 to @SophieT regarding your Elim past and you introduced the precept that in my own view would give a more settled basis for trying to understand the claim made by the author of the thread to tongues being a precious gift. You answered her in your beginning here @#1,210.

It may prove better for all of us to begin at the beginning and try to understand tongues as tongues were once understood by the conservative pentecostal churches. You raised Smith Wigglesworth and that of course does set a different light and rather fearful meaning to the gift of tongues and so whilst it is undoubtably the case that tongues has become something very different since the mid 1980's I know that you have written several books on the subject and so you could authenticate a more conservative meaning - not least because you are the oldest member in this thread.

Why can't we do that? Rather than begin in the chaos of today - why don't we speak about the past - pre the neocharismatic movement that gave rise to this present chaos. There are clear reasons why we are in such a fix on this subject and it is only partially grounded in a cessasionist claim by the reformed churches. If we do that we will find that one reality connects both the past and the present. That reality - be it a false or true use of the gift of prophecy - is the connective tissue. By which I mean the things that have been said in prophecy and the rise of an ill effect that is so grave that we have all experienced it by now in fullest measure.

I have friends in New Zealand and I was once under a pastor out of New Zealand - from the conservative pentecostal church. So I have watched this process for the last 38 years. I have no wish to write a book - but I do desire to make sense to others and help believers to address a most important reality that has been corrupted and misshapen to the point of causing extreme harm. So what about it brother?

 

[SophieT]

I'm not going to answer your question, because I won't get sucked into a two horse contentious exchange.

it was a rhetorical question

I mean honestly, you are pressing for that yourself and because I won't bite, now I want it

and you are how old again?

smh

 

[SophieT]

to make things clear regarding my own stance on the gifts and I know this thread was about tongues in particular, when I have posted about concerns with abuse re the gifts I am not pointing to any particular denom. if I were going to do that, I would be looking at the extremes that have been rising and that people are flocking to and participating in

 

[SophieT]

Yes - I asked because you and I have exchanged before in another place. You made reference here #1,231 to @SophieT regarding your Elim past and you introduced the precept that in my own view would give a more settled basis for trying to understand the claim made by the author of the thread to tongues being a precious gift. You answered her in your beginning here @#1,210.

It may prove better for all of us to begin at the beginning and try to understand tongues as tongues were once understood by the conservative pentecostal churches. You raised Smith Wigglesworth and that of course does set a different light and rather fearful meaning to the gift of tongues and so whilst it is undoubtably the case that tongues has become something very different since the mid 1980's I know that you have written several books on the subject and so you could authenticate a more conservative meaning - not least because you are the oldest member in this thread.

Why can't we do that? Rather than begin in the chaos of today - why don't we speak about the past - pre the neocharismatic movement that gave rise to this present chaos. There are clear reasons why we are in such a fix on this subject and it is only partially grounded in a cessasionist claim by the reformed churches. If we do that we will find that one reality connects both the past and the present. That reality - be it a false or true use of the gift of prophecy - is the connective tissue. By which I mean the things that have been said in prophecy and the rise of an ill effect that is so grave that we have all experienced it by now in fullest measure.

I have friends in New Zealand and I was once under a pastor out of New Zealand - from the conservative pentecostal church. So I have watched this process for the last 38 years. I have no wish to write a book - but I do desire to make sense to others and help believers to address a most important reality that has been corrupted and misshapen to the point of causing extreme harm. So what about it brother?

with particular interest in:

If we do that we will find that one reality connects both the past and the present. That reality - be it a false or true use of the gift of prophecy - is the connective tissue. By which I mean the things that have been said in prophecy and the rise of an ill effect that is so grave that we have all experienced it by now in fullest measure.

 

[Rhomphaeam]

with particular interest in:

If we do that we will find that one reality connects both the past and the present. That reality - be it a false or true use of the gift of prophecy - is the connective tissue. By which I mean the things that have been said in prophecy and the rise of an ill effect that is so grave that we have all experienced it by now in fullest measure.

Yes sister. God willing we shall come to it.

 

[SophieT]

Yes sister. God willing we shall come to it.

that would be great! I look forward to it

 

[Wansvic]

Oh dear, laughing is good for us! I do love to laugh at life! Everything can be so funny if not taken tooooooo seriously.

You are so right!
"A merry heart doeth good like a medicine: but a broken spirit drieth the bones." Prov 17:22

 

[Wansvic]

well as usual an ad hominum post

I know you would like to make it personal, but my post is addressed to your false doctrine

it is far more than a disagreement. you teach unbiblical concepts

Scripture speaks for itself. Those who received the Holy Ghost spoke in tongues. And all water baptisms after Jesus' death, burial and resurrection were administered in the name of the Lord Jesus. (Acts 2:4-41, 8:12-18, 10:44-48, 19:1-6, 22:16)

 

[Wansvic]

oh that's great skippy

first you tell me what a godly person I am, then because I disagree with your view on prophets, you have been following me around from thread to thread like a lost person posting x's and thumbs down

the hypocrisy is very revealing.

what is your point? do you feel good being such a small person?

Galatians 5:22.

 

[Wansvic]

...I have been here since around 2016...this is not my first profile...

Just curious why the need to change profiles?

 

[JTB]

It

The church where I served under the strict pastor was The Open Door Mission in Palmerston North, New Zealand (1970-73). The larger church where I was on the leadership team was The Christian Centre in Palmerston North (1973-1979). I also served in NZ Teen Challenge (1970-76), and The Gospel Faith Messenger prophetic ministry (2000-2016).

I was at Church on the Way in Van Nuys California under Pastor Jack Hayford back late 80's early 90's. I'm glad I learned about the gifts in a church that understood the importance of proper time, place, and discipline for them!

 

[Gardenias]

I'll second that JBT.
I was also in the CHURCH OF GOD of Severeville Tn. for many years.
Experienced the moving of God in many services but it was all done in a reverent and divine move of the Holy Ghost.

 

[KelbyofGod]

Since this is a thread about how Tongues is a precious gift of God, I'm going to share an experience with tongues (or series of experiences if you take them individually) because it is one of the more precious things (memories, gifts, experiences) that I have. I hesitated a bit when thinking about posting because of those who might (probably will) mock and/or attempt to discredit the experience in some way. I was thinking "Cast not your pearls before swine" or that which is holy unto dogs" because of how some might treat it. But then it came to mind how God still gives (pours out his precious gift of) the Holy Spirit unto those who seek him..whether they treat it well or later despise it... even to the extent that they speak evil of it (Blaspheming the Holy Ghost) which is the one unforgivable sin because of HOW precious it is. Yet He still pours it out. So I will also share this that happened to me.

When I first came to the Lord (meaning i received baptism in Jesus' name for remission of sins and received the Holy Ghost with speaking in tongues) I felt the power of God on me for about 6 months and saw God work for and with me much, and even after he taught me to pray, etc if I wanted that power to remain EVEN THOUGH the feeling of that power faded away (because he wants us to walk by faith not by sight (feelings and such). I heartily grabbed hold of the scripture that says "I can do ALL things through Christ which strengtheneth me" Phil 4:13 And I walked with power and confidence. BUT I didn't perfectly grasp HOW to do all things through Christ... and Satan used that error to allow me to trip and fall, which I didn't expect and didn't understand.

That caused me to doubt not just my standing in THAT scripture but my standing in nearly every area that I had taken confidence in God. That doubt quickly turned into fear. And that fear did what fear does... it brought torment. Fear and torment that was on the same scale as the confidence I had earlier. Intense confidence and success was turned into intense fear and expectation of failure in nearly every area. It was not pleasant and it wasn't going away. It lasted about a year and a half from start to eventual deliverance and victory.

I knew Satan was attacking my strength (which I felt he'd rather successfully taken) and was ultimately trying to steal my prayer, which is where the power is obtained (generated/accessed). Think Jesus in the garden before he was taken... How he prayed successfully until he had the power to face what was coming... And how Peter failed to pray and (as predicted) fell before the temptation. (see Matt. 26:40,41)

But instead of praying more and more, I continued to slip and prayed less and less because I felt/thought my prayer (or myself) wasn't strong enough to break through. Eventually I said something along the lines of "Satan, I know your doing this to steal my prayer [in those babbly tongues] and I'm tired of this... so Here ya go... I'll quit praying" ... And I did... (expecting that now that he had what he wanted he would ease up or leave me alone altogether. But guess what? He's kind of a jerk. He didn't let up on the torment at all. That torqued me off. Then I said "I gave you what you wanted and you didn't give me anything. Now I'm going to pray just out of spite". And I did. I started praying one solid hour (because of Matt 26:40) and in tongues because THAT is the kind of prayer that the Holy Ghost grants (which wasn't available to us until Jesus ascended. See: Acts 1:4,5,8; Acts 2:4, Acts 10:44,46,47; Acts 19:6; 1 Corinthians 14:2,14,4 )

Continued in next posting....

 

[KelbyofGod]

In short, EVERY SINGLE TIME that I prayed in tongues for that SOLID HOUR, God delivered me from that fear. It may have only been a few minutes that I could maintain that deliverance, but God indeed delivered me every single time. On days I didn’t pray a solid hour in tongues, I didn’t experience that deliverance and it felt like i’d never experienced that deliverance. So the next day I would do the solid hour because I was desperate for the deliverance and really wanted to stick it to the devil. At one point I could hear the question being posed “You pray for a whole hour.. And God might only give you deliverance for 3 minutes… is it worth really worth it?” and I answered “I’d still do it if it was only for 30 seconds because I hate this torment.” And I kept praying.

To jump to the end… Eventually I was prayed for by someone and God granted a deliverance that I could maintain. From that point on I knew that the enemy was attacking from the outside instead of on the inside. (as odd as that sounds)

When I enquired of God as to why it happened and what particularly changed, he explained (paraphrased): You are like a city. Prayer is a wall that keeps the enemy out. You weren’t praying enough to maintain your defense and the enemy was attacking in the city. When you’d pray a full hour (in tongues) that was enough to drive the enemy back, but not to keep him out because your wall was still down. Every time you prayed even a little bit more than the hour, the extra time was spent adding rocks to rebuild the wall. Eventually you drove him out and enough rocks were placed to complete the wall and maintain your city. The enemy will still attack, but if you keep your wall maintained the attacks will be less effective.

The point that was so valuable to me (besides the overall deliverance)... and the part that I do not want you to overlook…is the utter faithfulness that God exhibited in that EVERY SINGLE TIME that I prayed my hour in those babbly tongues God delivered me…EVERY SINGLE TIME. Each time I let the deliverance slip I had a new reason to see myself as a failure…and I knew the words he told me one day would not produce the same effect of deliverance in my heart the next time (because I’d kept speaking them even as the fear and torment returned) So EVERY TIME God would grant me deliverance in a new way, even though I was beating myself up yet again..

If you realize this was a year and a half process and it was perhaps half of that time that I spent rebuilding… that means God had to come up with 250+ unique ways to talk me out of my fear and give me peace. And he got it EVERY SINGLE TIME, without fail.

That’s why (partially) I love God and appreciate the value of speaking in tongues no matter how many people speak against it.

Love in Jesus to all who may hear,
Kelby

 

[PaulChristensen]

In short, EVERY SINGLE TIME that I prayed in tongues for that SOLID HOUR, God delivered me from that fear. It may have only been a few minutes that I could maintain that deliverance, but God indeed delivered me every single time. On days I didn’t pray a solid hour in tongues, I didn’t experience that deliverance and it felt like i’d never experienced that deliverance. So the next day I would do the solid hour because I was desperate for the deliverance and really wanted to stick it to the devil. At one point I could hear the question being posed “You pray for a whole hour.. And God might only give you deliverance for 3 minutes… is it worth really worth it?” and I answered “I’d still do it if it was only for 30 seconds because I hate this torment.” And I kept praying.

To jump to the end… Eventually I was prayed for by someone and God granted a deliverance that I could maintain. From that point on I knew that the enemy was attacking from the outside instead of on the inside. (as odd as that sounds)

When I enquired of God as to why it happened and what particularly changed, he explained (paraphrased): You are like a city. Prayer is a wall that keeps the enemy out. You weren’t praying enough to maintain your defense and the enemy was attacking in the city. When you’d pray a full hour (in tongues) that was enough to drive the enemy back, but not to keep him out because your wall was still down. Every time you prayed even a little bit more than the hour, the extra time was spent adding rocks to rebuild the wall. Eventually you drove him out and enough rocks were placed to complete the wall and maintain your city. The enemy will still attack, but if you keep your wall maintained the attacks will be less effective.

The point that was so valuable to me (besides the overall deliverance)... and the part that I do not want you to overlook…is the utter faithfulness that God exhibited in that EVERY SINGLE TIME that I prayed my hour in those babbly tongues God delivered me…EVERY SINGLE TIME. Each time I let the deliverance slip I had a new reason to see myself as a failure…and I knew the words he told me one day would not produce the same effect of deliverance in my heart the next time (because I’d kept speaking them even as the fear and torment returned) So EVERY TIME God would grant me deliverance in a new way, even though I was beating myself up yet again..

If you realize this was a year and a half process and it was perhaps half of that time that I spent rebuilding… that means God had to come up with 250+ unique ways to talk me out of my fear and give me peace. And he got it EVERY SINGLE TIME, without fail.

That’s why (partially) I love God and appreciate the value of speaking in tongues no matter how many people speak against it.

Love in Jesus to all who may hear,
Kelby

The one thing to bear in mind are the many people who will read your post and be encouraged in the Lord by your testimony. Ignorant people will remain ignorant no matter what you say. Isaiah spent over 60 years preaching God's Word to a disobedient, obstinate people, and when he asked the Lord why he was continuing to preach while no one was listening to him, the Lord told him to preach it anyway, because once they have heard the Word, they will have no excuse at the judgment.

I believe that tongues is a wonderful gift and I have been praying in tongues for over 50 years and seen the Lord do some wonderful things as a result. It is an integral part of my prayer life, and I wouldn't have much of a prayer life without it. At least one intercession in tongues as led by the Spirit brought a critically ill person in hospital back from the brink of death. I have also had the experience of having my tongue understood by a New Zealand Maori lady in church who said that I was speaking encouraging words of faith and love in the Maori language, a language I had never learned.

I have absolute respect for the Holy Spirit and the prayer language that He has given me to maintain a close fellowship with the Lord in the Spirit. To make light of or speak disrespectful of tongues (or any other spiritual gift) is to disrespect the Holy Spirit who gives it to people according to His will.

You can't change the gainsayers, Just let their criticisms and ignorant comments go in one ear and out the other, and just carrying using the gift that the Holy Spirit has given you and enjoying the blessings that come with it.

 

[Rhomphaeam]

The one thing to bear in mind are the many people who will read your post and be encouraged in the Lord by your testimony. Ignorant people will remain ignorant no matter what you say. Isaiah spent over 60 years preaching God's Word to a disobedient, obstinate people, and when he asked the Lord why he was continuing to preach while no one was listening to him, the Lord told him to preach it anyway, because once they have heard the Word, they will have no excuse at the judgment.

I believe that tongues is a wonderful gift and I have been praying in tongues for over 50 years and seen the Lord do some wonderful things as a result. It is an integral part of my prayer life, and I wouldn't have much of a prayer life without it. At least one intercession in tongues as led by the Spirit brought a critically ill person in hospital back from the brink of death. I have also had the experience of having my tongue understood by a New Zealand Maori lady in church who said that I was speaking encouraging words of faith and love in the Maori language, a language I had never learned.

I have absolute respect for the Holy Spirit and the prayer language that He has given me to maintain a close fellowship with the Lord in the Spirit. To make light of or speak disrespectful of tongues (or any other spiritual gift) is to disrespect the Holy Spirit who gives it to people according to His will.

You can't change the gainsayers, Just let their criticisms and ignorant comments go in one ear and out the other, and just carrying using the gift that the Holy Spirit has given you and enjoying the blessings that come with it.

And yet for all that can be said of the gift of tongues as a prayer language - that is not the issue. How we pray is really a matter of how we are gifted even if we do agree to yield to Satan mistakenly. The larger issue is not a personal thing at all. It is the churches and what is said there is the real issue. Was this thread to simply promote a gift of tongues as a prayer language? If it was then it has fallen onto the rocks because it has provoked an almost endless derision which you call the gainsayers. How will ignoring them prove fruitful when we are concerned for the churches? Are we concerned for just one man - or are we simply concerned for ourselves? If that is what we are concerned with then it is a simple matter to agree when one man says his prayer language has proven to deliver him from spiritual oppression.

 

[KelbyofGod]

And yet for all that can be said of the gift of tongues as a prayer language - that is not the issue. How we pray is really a matter of how we are gifted even if we do agree to yield to Satan mistakenly. The larger issue is not a personal thing at all. It is the churches and what is said there is the real issue. Was this thread to simply promote a gift of tongues as a prayer language? If it was then it has fallen onto the rocks because it has provoked an almost endless derision which you call the gainsayers. How will ignoring them prove fruitful when we are concerned for the churches? Are we concerned for just one man - or are we simply concerned for ourselves? If that is what we are concerned with then it is a simple matter to agree when one man says his prayer language has proven to deliver him from spiritual oppression.

The idea isn't to limit deliverance to just one man, or to just ourselves as individuals. But there's a reason Paul talks approximately half the time in 1 Corinthians 14 about speaking in tongues and the other half the time about speech that is understandable.

If we want to be able to be strong enough to help and fix others (through prophecy, etc) we probably are going to need to spend a considerable amount of time gaining strength and fixing ourselves.. (getting the beams out of our own eyes).

Speaking in tongues (praying in the spirit) does exactly that because the Spirit knows how to help our infirmities by making intercession for us in a way that asks what we don't even know (and therefore couldn't pray) in our understanding... per Romans 8:26-27.

Perhaps in my next post I'll share how speaking in tongues led to being able to overcome a weakness of my own at the same time as dealing with a weakness of another... leaving us both speechless.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

 

[Rhomphaeam]

If we want to be able to be strong enough to help and fix others (through prophecy, etc) we probably are going to need to spend a considerable amount of time gaining strength and fixing ourselves.. (getting the beams out of our own eyes).

You can't fix yourself and you shouldn't be trying to fix yourself either. And that is the problem really with this thread. Rather than bearing the cross of obedience and denying oneself - we instead try to fix ourselves. It is all about self. Do you think that fixing others is done through prophecy? Do people get healed with prophecy. I believe that you think they do? If that is so - then we should be weeping because things are gone terribly wrong.

 

[KelbyofGod]

You can't fix yourself and you shouldn't be trying to fix yourself either. And that is the problem really with this thread. Rather than bearing the cross of obedience and denying oneself - we instead try to fix ourselves. It is all about self. Do you think that fixing others is done through prophecy? Do people get healed with prophecy. I believe that you think they do? If that is so - then we should be weeping because things are gone terribly wrong.

Have you considered the inherent hypocrisy of your premise? If you take up your cross and follow him, YOU are the one taking up the cross. It's not wrong to be involved in your own improvement. Such as:

"And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. " - Romans 12:2 KJV​

WE renew our minds by reading, pondering and doing the word of God. We choose to submit to the actions... God does the miraculous part.

However, there is also truth in the idea of US not being able to fix ourselves. Which is again why we need the Spirit (speaking in tongues) to pray things we (with the best of our understanding) simply DO NOT know and therefore cannot utter. That's one of the main functions of speaking in tongues "for if I speak in an unknown tongue my SPIRIT prayeth," but my understanding isn't contributing to the improvement.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

 

[SophieT]

The one thing to bear in mind are the many people who will read your post and be encouraged in the Lord by your testimony. Ignorant people will remain ignorant no matter what you say. Isaiah spent over 60 years preaching God's Word to a disobedient, obstinate people, and when he asked the Lord why he was continuing to preach while no one was listening to him, the Lord told him to preach it anyway, because once they have heard the Word, they will have no excuse at the judgment.

what has that got to do with the price of tea in China?

why are people being ignorant in your opinion? Isaiah was an actual prophet and believers are not ancient Israel

are we preaching tongues and gifts or Jesus? Jesus said if He is lifted up, He will draw all men (mankind) to Him. Stop blaming all the ignorant people and see this thread and all the other threads for what they are. One big nasty disagreement on TONGUES that separates, confuses and insults

there is NO comparison between OT prophets and the miasma of misinformation of what passes for a prophet today

I guess I'm preaching it today brother, and guess what? NO ONE IS LISTENING, but that is what God has put on my heart for YEARS now and I am not a prophet.

obstinate people. well you got that right anyway