TONGUES is a precious gift from God

[Gardenias]

Let's be real people.

Indoctrination the PROCESS of teaching a person to accept a set of beliefs uncritically.......do not search out and think for yourself.

Deception the PROCESS or act of making someone believe something that is NOT TRUE.

This is the PROCESS of false teachings,heresy,and following man and his theology.
This is a CULT LIKE atmosphere that has permeated the end times. People WANT to have their itching ears tickled and be given the ok to be of the world.

As has been said many times Satan wanted to usurp God and take over his creation,therefore he counterfeits everything that God IS!

EXCEPT LOVE!

If a PERSON or a DOCTRINE or a BELIEF DOES NOT line up with the word of God then it is questionable at best. Spiritual is discerned by Spiritual!

If you do not believe in the Father ( God), the Son ( God) and the Holy Spirit ( God), then I would advise you to find an altar and get your heart right with God!

If you do not believe that holy men of God were inspired under the Holy Spirit and wrote the beloved word of God.......see above advice

Life with Christ is not fiction nor a thing to be played at. Every inspired word is TRUTH and our guide to a relationship with God.

If you cannot believe that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are real and in effect today as of 2000 years ago, then I say for each PERSON to get alone with God and his word and PROVE they've ceased!

 

[Gardenias]

Walking with the Lord is HARD!
It is not some fru fu ha ha trip to OZ.

There are valleys,mountaintops,pits and even darkness in our walk.

The ONLY way to maintain our course is to walk in the word under the guidance of the Holy Spirit!

 

[Rhomphaeam]

Let's be real people.

Indoctrination the PROCESS of teaching a person to accept a set of beliefs uncritically.......do not search out and think for yourself.

Deception the PROCESS or act of making someone believe something that is NOT TRUE.

This is the PROCESS of false teachings,heresy,and following man and his theology.
This is a CULT LIKE atmosphere that has permeated the end times. People WANT to have their itching ears tickled and be given the ok to be of the world.

As has been said many times Satan wanted to usurp God and take over his creation,therefore he counterfeits everything that God IS!

EXCEPT LOVE!

If a PERSON or a DOCTRINE or a BELIEF DOES NOT line up with the word of God then it is questionable at best. Spiritual is discerned by Spiritual!

If you do not believe in the Father ( God), the Son ( God) and the Holy Spirit ( God), then I would advise you to find an altar and get your heart right with God!

If you do not believe that holy men of God were inspired under the Holy Spirit and wrote the beloved word of God.......see above advice

Life with Christ is not fiction nor a thing to be played at. Every inspired word is TRUTH and our guide to a relationship with God.

If you cannot believe that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are real and in effect today as of 2000 years ago, then I say for each PERSON to get alone with God and his word and PROVE they've ceased!

What do you think this occurrence was? Bearing in mind this was Wesley after he came back from America having failed to penetrate the Native American Nation in Savannah in Georgia in 1736.

“In the evening I went very unwillingly to a society in Aldersgate Street, where one was reading Luther's preface to the Epistle to the Romans. About a quarter before nine, while he was describing the change which God works in the heart through faith in Christ, I felt my heart strangely warmed. I felt I did trust in Christ, Christ alone for salvation, and an assurance was given me that he had taken away my sins, even mine and saved me from the law of sin and death.” John Wesley 24th May 1738

 

[Gardenias]

For many years after Christ the apostles gave the inspired word of God to the people. It was in written form in letters and epistles and the gospels when they were penned.

There was a time when the word was hidden from the people and only ministered by those deemed approved to share it. ( per Catholicism)

At one time the written word of God found in homes was the most precious possession. Sadly not so today.

I know where you are going and I will say that EVERY denomination or Faith has been touched by the reformation and great revival.
I will also say that if WE as INDIVIDUALS do not vet what we believe against the written word then we have become complacent.

 

[PaulChristensen]

is there a reason you seem to think you need to educate me about these things?

I will tell you who are the godly people. those would be the people who put aside their own whatever it is they think they want to do and consider instead those without God or even those who are believers and instead of doing their own thing, EMPLOY Paul's instructions and RESPECT the differences in people and WITNESS to everyone that yes, they actually CAN do everything decently and in order

there is nothing you can tell me about corporate worship in the spirit as I have led it....but you have to be sensitive and not just 'give the people what they want' so everyone can go home 'blessed' and feeling good and come back for their 'fix' the following Sunday.

people start to depend on a human being to 'give' them what they could have themselves if they sought God. I've taught that and encouraged that because I don't want to be employed as someone's 'Moses' between God and man and you see this happening all the time. a so called worship team up front and people pressing into them and DEPENDING on those humans to give what only God can give

silence is also worship

you are not going to correct me or anyone else with experience who has the understanding of being led by the Spirit of God without all the hooplah and knows what goes on behind the scenes

have you ever been in the place of leadership wherein you see the Holy Spirit moving over the congregation and people responding and know your place is to keep quiet and just pray without all the emotional responses that never create a lasting work of the Holy Spirit? sure we have emotions...but emotions should not rule the spirit

well I have seen this chaos...some visiting so called evangelist actually leaping from the platform onto the organ and people all clapping as if that was some kind of God inspired move when it was nothing but cheap theatrics

or some dude trying to literally climb up a support pole while gyrating around and women screaming around or another thrashing on the floor like she was possessed every single time there was actually a move of the Spirit...every single time...drawing all eyes off God and onto her...what do think that was exactly?

and many many more questionable ocurrences that people think are all God because they are believers. it is not now nor has it ever been ALL God. those same people turn up in the Pastor's office or a counsellor's office or run around asking for prayer because they have accepted the leading of a spirit that is NOT God and I am not talking about possession (that's a whole other thing anyway because many translations have translated what is happening incorrectly but I won't belabor the point) but rather oppression

I love when everyone really does have their eyes focused on our Savior and I love when everyone sings in the spirit or those songs that someone might get that are inspired by the Spirit and have never been heard before

there really is not much you can tell me and you cannot make a case for this:



and sometimes they are right. but go ahead and stubbornly refuse correction and put yourself before others. free worship...tell you what....do that at home or in hour home Bible studies and prepare for the service wherein people come because they are drawn by God and then make sense instead of pleasing yourself

and don't get angry at me because I have been there, done that, and having actually been in leadership, and I know what I am talking about

and don't quote acts wherein the people gathered accused those in the upper room of being drunk...thousands were saved and they UNDERSTOOD the tongues...you cannot compare what goes down today in so many places with that

and if anyone got to here, good on yah and be blessed in Jesus name

and here come the hearts I don't care to have attached to this or any other post quite frankly. if anyone with all the hearts actually discussed things and made sense that might be different.

Now, Now...no need to get your nose out of joint!
I'm commenting only on my own 12 year experience of close association and membership of Pentecostal churches, where I saw none of the excesses you describe. In every Pentecostal service I have ever attended, and this was 12 years of Sunday morning and evening services, all I saw was everything done decently and in order and people enjoying being at church. The free worship times were conducted in a very self-controlled manner and at the appropriate time in the service. The emphasis of each service was the ministry of God's Word. If there were any unusual manifestations it was usually during the Sunday evening altar call where people with spiritual problems were being ministered to, and sometimes demons manifested and were effectively dealt with by the ministry team. The most powerful times I saw were in two conferences where the presence of God was so intense that people were getting off their seats, falling to their knees and weeping in prayer to God in order to get right with Him. I served under a mature Pentecostal pastor who when he saw any unusual, uncontrolled manifestations, he would put a total stop on them immediately. If anyone got up and started talking nonsense, he would sharply tell them to sit down, and they did. In services run by him, one had to really make sure that anything done was led by the Holy Spirit and not some lunatic fringe spirit.

So, it is good not to disrespect an old guy with many years of experience in the Pentecostal and Charismatic movement, and even though I have spent the last 30 odd years in Baptist and Presbyterian churches, I still involved myself in a Pentecostal-based interdenominational ministry in Saturday conferences and midweek equipping meetings.

 

[PaulChristensen]

Walking with the Lord is HARD!
It is not some fru fu ha ha trip to OZ.

There are valleys,mountaintops,pits and even darkness in our walk.

The ONLY way to maintain our course is to walk in the word under the guidance of the Holy Spirit!

When I first read your post I thought you were talking about travelling to Australia!

 

[PaulChristensen]

Getting back to the topic...
I served under a mature Pentecostal pastor for a number of years. His background was Methodist Holiness. He was a stickler for personal holiness, and had no time for the lunatic fringe excessive manifestations. He was very serious about the gift of tongues, and once when I made a flippant remark about tongues he store a strip off me for disrespecting the Holy Spirit. When he prayed in tongues it made me want to get right with God! I saw the power of the Holy Spirit come down on two conferences where he started his ministry by praying in tongues. As a result, some of the most hardened people got down on their knees and got right with God in tears. His prayer also released some very powerful prophetic words that further intensified the presence of God in the meeting. Once I saw that, it spoiled me for everything else. Every other church meeting was tame compared to those meetings.

When Smith Wigglesworth came to Wellington NZ in the 1920s, he had prayer times with the local ministers. The presence of God with him was so intense that the ministers couldn't stay in the room with him. It is interesting that Wigglesworth's respect for the gift of tongues was the same as my late mature pastor's.

So, maybe the way these men used the gift of tongues in prayer, was totally different to the ways that the lunatic fringe that has hijacked the Pentecostal movement are using it.

 

[ResidentAlien]

Getting back to the topic...
I served under a mature Pentecostal pastor for a number of years. His background was Methodist Holiness. He was a stickler for personal holiness, and had no time for the lunatic fringe excessive manifestations. He was very serious about the gift of tongues, and once when I made a flippant remark about tongues he store a strip off me for disrespecting the Holy Spirit. When he prayed in tongues it made me want to get right with God! I saw the power of the Holy Spirit come down on two conferences where he started his ministry by praying in tongues. As a result, some of the most hardened people got down on their knees and got right with God in tears. His prayer also released some very powerful prophetic words that further intensified the presence of God in the meeting. Once I saw that, it spoiled me for everything else. Every other church meeting was tame compared to those meetings.

When Smith Wigglesworth came to Wellington NZ in the 1920s, he had prayer times with the local ministers. The presence of God with him was so intense that the ministers couldn't stay in the room with him. It is interesting that Wigglesworth's respect for the gift of tongues was the same as my late mature pastor's.

So, maybe the way these men used the gift of tongues in prayer, was totally different to the ways that the lunatic fringe that has hijacked the Pentecostal movement are using it.

It all depends on your definition of lunatic fringe.

 

[SophieT]

Now, Now...no need to get your nose out of joint!
I'm commenting only on my own 12 year experience of close association and membership of Pentecostal churches, where I saw none of the excesses you describe. In every Pentecostal service I have ever attended, and this was 12 years of Sunday morning and evening services, all I saw was everything done decently and in order and people enjoying being at church. The free worship times were conducted in a very self-controlled manner and at the appropriate time in the service. The emphasis of each service was the ministry of God's Word. If there were any unusual manifestations it was usually during the Sunday evening altar call where people with spiritual problems were being ministered to, and sometimes demons manifested and were effectively dealt with by the ministry team. The most powerful times I saw were in two conferences where the presence of God was so intense that people were getting off their seats, falling to their knees and weeping in prayer to God in order to get right with Him. I served under a mature Pentecostal pastor who when he saw any unusual, uncontrolled manifestations, he would put a total stop on them immediately. If anyone got up and started talking nonsense, he would sharply tell them to sit down, and they did. In services run by him, one had to really make sure that anything done was led by the Holy Spirit and not some lunatic fringe spirit.

So, it is good not to disrespect an old guy with many years of experience in the Pentecostal and Charismatic movement, and even though I have spent the last 30 odd years in Baptist and Presbyterian churches, I still involved myself in a Pentecostal-based interdenominational ministry in Saturday conferences and midweek equipping meetings.

I believe this response is what is called 'selective observation'. you attended Pentecostal services and saw this and that

perhaps you can enlighten me as to where I specifically said a thing about Pentecostals? you are defending your own experience

I am also at a loss as to how or when I disrespected old men in that post you have quoted

the gifts of the Spirit are not limited to any denomination, much as one might like to claim it so. I am neither Pentecostal or Charismatic yet I speak/pray in tongues and have experienced the gift of 'a word of knowledge' when God saw fit to benefit someone who needed to hear something I had no way of knowing except by the Holy Spirit

I have not offered my C.V. but rather critiqued the goings on in many churches and there is no sign of extra biblical and harmful practices stopping. you might have noticed how many in this forum post videos or list suspect ministries or practices and the places associated with them? they aren't just whistling Dixie

again, I did not make specific reference to a Pentecostal church or your church or a desire to disrespect old men.

your secret is out now...you are an old man...congratulations...God has blessed you with old age and gray hair (I guess about the hair but usually that would appear to be so)

really, let's not make this about you or even me. there are far more aspects to speaking in tongues and all the misuse that goes along with it, not to mention other gifts, then to continue on with the remarks made by some members against other members as an attempt to garner favor, while casting doubt on others who are not persuaded by comments that attempt to disarm and change the subject

as Gardenias said, let's be real people.

 

[PaulChristensen]

It all depends on your definition of lunatic fringe.

Yep.

 

[PaulChristensen]

I believe this response is what is called 'selective observation'. you attended Pentecostal services and saw this and that

perhaps you can enlighten me as to where I specifically said a thing about Pentecostals? you are defending your own experience

I am also at a loss as to how or when I disrespected old men in that post you have quoted

the gifts of the Spirit are not limited to any denomination, much as one might like to claim it so. I am neither Pentecostal or Charismatic yet I speak/pray in tongues and have experienced the gift of 'a word of knowledge' when God saw fit to benefit someone who needed to hear something I had no way of knowing except by the Holy Spirit

I have not offered my C.V. but rather critiqued the goings on in many churches and there is no sign of extra biblical and harmful practices stopping. you might have noticed how many in this forum post videos or list suspect ministries or practices and the places associated with them? they aren't just whistling Dixie

again, I did not make specific reference to a Pentecostal church or your church or a desire to disrespect old men.

your secret is out now...you are an old man...congratulations...God has blessed you with old age and gray hair (I guess about the hair but usually that would appear to be so)

really, let's not make this about you or even me. there are far more aspects to speaking in tongues and all the misuse that goes along with it, not to mention other gifts, then to continue on with the remarks made by some members against other members as an attempt to garner favor, while casting doubt on others who are not persuaded by comments that attempt to disarm and change the subject

as Gardenias said, let's be real people.

Your comments are noted. It just so happens that for 7 of those years, I was part of the leadership of a prominent Pentecostal church in a New Zealand provincial city. It wasn't just attending Pentecostal services, it was being an integral part of the running of the church. As part of that, I had contact with most of the prominent Pentecostal church leaders in the country, as well as fellowship with many of the overseas ministries that visited our church from time to time. So I think that my account of the Pentecostal movement is something to be considered.

 

[Rhomphaeam]

I know where you are going and I will say that EVERY denomination or Faith has been touched by the reformation and great revival.

I will also say that if WE as INDIVIDUALS do not vet what we believe against the written word then we have become complacent.

I wonder if you do know where I am going when I posted this?

“In the evening I went very unwillingly to a society in Aldersgate Street, where one was reading Luther's preface to the Epistle to the Romans. About a quarter before nine, while he was describing the change which God works in the heart through faith in Christ, I felt my heart strangely warmed. I felt I did trust in Christ, Christ alone for salvation, and an assurance was given me that he had taken away my sins, even mine and saved me from the law of sin and death.” John Wesley 24th May 1738

You either use your words colloquially or else you mean what you say.

 

[Rhomphaeam]

Getting back to the topic...
I served under a mature Pentecostal pastor for a number of years. His background was Methodist Holiness. He was a stickler for personal holiness, and had no time for the lunatic fringe excessive manifestations. He was very serious about the gift of tongues, and once when I made a flippant remark about tongues he store a strip off me for disrespecting the Holy Spirit. When he prayed in tongues it made me want to get right with God! I saw the power of the Holy Spirit come down on two conferences where he started his ministry by praying in tongues. As a result, some of the most hardened people got down on their knees and got right with God in tears. His prayer also released some very powerful prophetic words that further intensified the presence of God in the meeting. Once I saw that, it spoiled me for everything else. Every other church meeting was tame compared to those meetings.

When Smith Wigglesworth came to Wellington NZ in the 1920s, he had prayer times with the local ministers. The presence of God with him was so intense that the ministers couldn't stay in the room with him. It is interesting that Wigglesworth's respect for the gift of tongues was the same as my late mature pastor's.

So, maybe the way these men used the gift of tongues in prayer, was totally different to the ways that the lunatic fringe that has hijacked the Pentecostal movement are using it.

IAN & JOYE JOHNSON & His Amazing Glory Ministries

What do you make of this ministry?

 

[SophieT]

Your comments are noted. It just so happens that for 7 of those years, I was part of the leadership of a prominent Pentecostal church in a New Zealand provincial city. It wasn't just attending Pentecostal services, it was being an integral part of the running of the church. As part of that, I had contact with most of the prominent Pentecostal church leaders in the country, as well as fellowship with many of the overseas ministries that visited our church from time to time. So I think that my account of the Pentecostal movement is something to be considered.

well then why are you insisting on discussing Pentecostals with me when I made no mention of them?

other than to say I am not Pentecostal...or Charismatic

 

[JTB]

Now, Now...no need to get your nose out of joint!
I'm commenting only on my own 12 year experience of close association and membership of Pentecostal churches, where I saw none of the excesses you describe. In every Pentecostal service I have ever attended, and this was 12 years of Sunday morning and evening services, all I saw was everything done decently and in order and people enjoying being at church. The free worship times were conducted in a very self-controlled manner and at the appropriate time in the service. The emphasis of each service was the ministry of God's Word. If there were any unusual manifestations it was usually during the Sunday evening altar call where people with spiritual problems were being ministered to, and sometimes demons manifested and were effectively dealt with by the ministry team. The most powerful times I saw were in two conferences where the presence of God was so intense that people were getting off their seats, falling to their knees and weeping in prayer to God in order to get right with Him. I served under a mature Pentecostal pastor who when he saw any unusual, uncontrolled manifestations, he would put a total stop on them immediately. If anyone got up and started talking nonsense, he would sharply tell them to sit down, and they did. In services run by him, one had to really make sure that anything done was led by the Holy Spirit and not some lunatic fringe spirit.

So, it is good not to disrespect an old guy with many years of experience in the Pentecostal and Charismatic movement, and even though I have spent the last 30 odd years in Baptist and Presbyterian churches, I still involved myself in a Pentecostal-based interdenominational ministry in Saturday conferences and midweek equipping meetings.

I'm curious ... what was the church and who was the Pastor? Sounds like where I learned - what I call 1st Corinthians 14 charismatic. Definitely operational but in a disciplined manner.

 

[PaulChristensen]

IAN & JOYE JOHNSON & His Amazing Glory Ministries

What do you make of this ministry?

I've not heard of them. I will look them up on Google.

 

[PaulChristensen]

IAN & JOYE JOHNSON & His Amazing Glory Ministries

What do you make of this ministry?

I see that he has a New Zealand Elim church background. That Pentecostal denomination is one of the more conservative denominations in the Pentecostal movement. When I get more time, I will view one of his messages on YouTube. On first impression, he seems to be worth listening to.

 

[PaulChristensen]

well then why are you insisting on discussing Pentecostals with me when I made no mention of them?

other than to say I am not Pentecostal...or Charismatic

I'm not going to answer your question, because I won't get sucked into a two horse contentious exchange.

 

[PaulChristensen]

It

I'm curious ... what was the church and who was the Pastor? Sounds like where I learned - what I call 1st Corinthians 14 charismatic. Definitely operational but in a disciplined manner.

The church where I served under the strict pastor was The Open Door Mission in Palmerston North, New Zealand (1970-73). The larger church where I was on the leadership team was The Christian Centre in Palmerston North (1973-1979). I also served in NZ Teen Challenge (1970-76), and The Gospel Faith Messenger prophetic ministry (2000-2016).

 

[Gardenias]

I wonder if you do know where I am going when I posted this?

“In the evening I went very unwillingly to a society in Aldersgate Street, where one was reading Luther's preface to the Epistle to the Romans. About a quarter before nine, while he was describing the change which God works in the heart through faith in Christ, I felt my heart strangely warmed. I felt I did trust in Christ, Christ alone for salvation, and an assurance was given me that he had taken away my sins, even mine and saved me from the law of sin and death.” John Wesley 24th May 1738

You either use your words colloquially or else you mean what you say.

I do talk with informal familiarity about God and his word. He is my EVERYDAY life.
For people of Faith there is NO big I and little you,for we are all partakers of Christ together.
People can become strangled if too much book,chapter and verse is shoved at them,it becomes overwhelming!
I also talk to God informally,we have conversations. He is my Father and he loves his children and wants to bless us.
I am a very blunt person and mean EXACTLY what I say even at the worst of times when my foot is in my mouth...lol
I do try to not be offensive and hurt people but I too am flawed.

If I jumped the gun on where you were going ,excuse me but you've quoted a reformation preacher twice.