Doctrine of Unconditional Election

[fredoheaven]

No it doesnt, it refers to salvation. The first born blessing had to do with spiritual interest of the family and the coming of the messiah through the seed of Abraham.

Rom 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

Again Service...

 

[FreeGrace2]

Okay, well, I read your post/analysis and thanks for including it, however, I have to say that its logic was tortured beyond belief:

Really?

if a equal b then c must be true

This nonsense is NOWHERE near my logic. In fact, I simply quoted a whole lot of verses. Which it seems you cannot connect the dots.

.... and then if c is true then if c = d then e must be true... and.....and...based upon those variables all being correct, then the conclusion is/must be the correct of election meaning election to service. Huh??? Really???

No, that's not what i did. Not even close. Very sad that you seem unable to figure it all out.

I noticed that except for Eph 1:4 (which substantiates my position, not yours) you didn't supply any verses that referred to election, the rest only mentioning service - not good for making your point.

Let me explain AGAIN then. In those verses about service, ALL of them were ELECTED or CHOSEN. Beginning with Jesus Christ, angels and the people of Israel (all of them).

Are you seriously going to argue that Jesus, angels and all of Israel were elected to salvation? When, in fact, NONE of them where.

I guess that since you wanted to find it so badly you were able to convince yourself it was there. I think you found service but then also needed a cause to associate it to, so you tried to reverse engineer into election.

Since your eyes are so tightly closed, let me just point out AGAIN that in EVERY example of service, the person was ELECTED. But you just DON'T WANT TO CONNECT THE OBVIOUS DOTS.

I also noticed that you neglected the verses I supplied that unquestionably pertained to election.

I STILL haven't seen any from you. Would you please just quote them again? That would be helpful.

Be that as it may, the following verses, though only a few, logically cover the aspects of election (if you are willing to read and think about them closely enough)

You really mean, "like I DIDN'T with yours".

and refutes the claim you made to brightfame52 (or was it Grandpa or both?) that there is nothing in the Bible that pertains to election and salvation.

Let's see what you have.

[Rom 11:5-8 KJV]
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.

OK, fine. You have verses that speak of election. But where is any mention of salvation here? Nowhere, as usual. You are simply presuming that "election" IS to salvation.

**The remnant (the elect) obtained grace, and by that grace they have also unquestionably obtained salvation.

Presumption. Titus 2:11 says the "grace of God that brings salvation HAS APPEARED to everyone". And we all know that NOT everyone is elected to salvation.

So you are committing the exact fuzzy logic that you have charged me with. Way to go.

Election to service is neither expressly nor implicitly referenced by those verses.

There are many verses that simply mentions election without specifying the purpose. These verses are one example of that.

But I have provided a list of verses that clearly shows the purpose of election. 1 Cor 1:27,28, Eph 1:4, Acts 9:15, 1 Pet 1:2, etc.

True Christians are undoubtedly called to service but is unrelated to their election per se.

Well, that's where you are quite wrong. That is the whole point of election. In EVERY verse where the purpose is stated, it is to service.

[Eph 2:10 KJV] 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Sure. Ordained that believers (we) should (ought) to produce good works and walk in them. If this isn't service, what do you call it?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Are you kidding or am I misunderstanding you? Esau was the elder, yet God hated him before even being born.

No, that is an error. When Paul mentioned Esau, he was referring to the people that came from him, the Edomites, a very evil people, who persecuted God's chosen people. In fact, Paul was quoting from Malachi 1:2,3 in Rom 9:13. Those verses were written about 400 years AFTER Esau lived. So the verses weren't about individual people, but a group of people.

The verse tells us that God can bless whomever He wants in whatever way He wants, and He owes no explanation to anyone for it.

Quite true. However, God HAS given us an explanation for it.

Isa 55:7 - Let the wicked forsake their ways and the unrighteous their thoughts. Let them turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on them, and to our God, for he will freely pardon.

This is not your typical 'go-to verse' for calvinists. Why? Because it shed light on the FACT that God blesses volition (choice of men).

In essence, IF the wicked forsake their ways, and turn to the Lord, God WILL have mercy on them and FREELY pardon them.

So, God's blessings are enjoyed by people who repent of their sinful lives and turn to Him.

Isa 1:18-20 makes this point very clearly.

18 “Come now, let us settle the matter,” says the LORD. “Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool.
19 If you are willing and obedient, you will eat the good things of the land;
20 but if you resist and rebel, you will be devoured by the sword.” For the mouth of the LORD has spoken.

Color coding so you CAN'T miss the point.

Red words refer to the choice of being willing and obedient.
Blue words refer to the consequence of this choice: blessings.
Green words refer to the choice of resisting/rebelling.
Purple words refer to the consequence of this choice: cursing/discipline.

Calvinists reject that man has free will. But man DOES have freedom in the choices he makes, as this verse clearly indicates.

If you can understand these verses, and accept the truth in them, you will be on your way to understanding the rest of the Bible.

If not, then you won't.

 

[FreeGrace2]

fredoheaven said:
Rom 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

This refers to servce.

No it doesnt, it refers to salvation. The first born blessing had to do with spiritual interest of the family and the coming of the messiah through the seed of Abraham.

You are only seeing what you WANT to see. Nothing else.

 

[rogerg]

Sure. Ordained that believers (we) should (ought) to produce good works and walk in them. If this isn't service, what do you call it?

Yeah, but that's not election in the sense the Bible defines it - that is what my point was

 

[Grandpa]

fredoheaven said:
Rom 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

This refers to servce.

You are only seeing what you WANT to see. Nothing else.

Salvation is to service. For everyone who is saved.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

 

[rogerg]

This nonsense is NOWHERE near my logic. In fact, I simply quoted a whole lot of verses. Which it seems you cannot connect the dots.

It is when you start with Christ as the elected one and abstractly/incorrectly derive the service of His followers to be election,

Let me explain AGAIN then. In those verses about service, ALL of them were ELECTED or CHOSEN. Beginning with Jesus Christ, angels and the people of Israel (all of them).

Are you seriously going to argue that Jesus, angels and all of Israel were elected to salvation? When, in fact, NONE of them where.

Providing service is NOT Election. I don't know which verse(s) you are referring to regarding angels and Israel,

Since your eyes are so tightly closed, let me just point out AGAIN that in EVERY example of service, the person was ELECTED. But you just DON'T WANT TO CONNECT THE OBVIOUS DOTS.

Not according to the verses that I provided. Grace is given to the Election unto salvation. Service is a product of salvation, but after the fact. It is not of the election in the verses I provided to you in my last reply

I STILL haven't seen any from you. Would you please just quote them again? That would be helpful.

Here (post #2113):

[Mat 24:24, 31 KJV]
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect. ...
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
[Luk 18:7 KJV]
7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?
[Rom 8:33 KJV]
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? [It is] God that justifieth.
[Col 3:12 KJV]
12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
[1Pe 1:2 KJV]
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
[Mar 13:22, 27 KJV]
22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if [it were] possible, even the elect. ...
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
[Tit 1:1 KJV] 1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

[Rom 11:5-6 KJV]
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

OK, fine. You have verses that speak of election. But where is any mention of salvation here? Nowhere, as usual. You are simply presuming that "election" IS to salvation.

No, I don't assume anything. This is why the Bible instructs that no verse of Scripture is of any private interpretation. We are to associate other verses to draw a correct interpretation. To answer your question directly, we are shown this by the below verse: grace saved by grace.

[Eph 2:8 KJV]
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

But I have provided a list of verses that clearly shows the purpose of election. 1 Cor 1:27,28, Eph 1:4, Acts 9:15, 1 Pet 1:2, etc.

It is "clearly" to you perhaps, but I disagree.

 

[rogerg]

he statement that God hated Esau came many years later and is referring to the nation that came from Esau. See Malachi 1.

It isn't a matter when it came or was written, it is all from the Bible, isn't it? If you choose to use those criteria, you'll have to discard most of the New Testament.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Sure. Ordained that believers (we) should (ought) to produce good works and walk in them. If this isn't service, what do you call it?

Yeah, but that's not election in the sense the Bible defines it - that is what my point was

My whole point is that EVERY TIME the Bible does define election, by stating the PURPOSE, it is about service. All you have to do is review the verses I've shared. They are ALL about service.

So, let's think about Eph 1:4 a minute. The verse that calvinists always go to for their view of election. They say it is about salvation, but the verse does NOT say that, or even close to that.

First, in Eph 1-2, Paul repeatedly uses the SECOND person PLURAL throughout; "we" and "us". And in 1:19 he clearly defines the "us" as "us who believe". So right away we KNOW that Paul means all believers when he used "us" and "we".

So 1:4 means that God chose believers. Those already saved. So this verse cannot mean that God chose believers for salvation. The fact that God's choice was "before the foundation of the world" refers to His omniscience; He has always known who will believe.

It is a gross error to presume that God chose who would believe, and that is at the foundation of the calvinist doctrine of election.

There are NO verses that show that God decides who will believe. Without any evidence, it's only an opinion.

Now, getting back to 1:4, the verse clearly shows that God chose believers...to be holy and blameless. This is not about being chosen for salvation, but about believers being chosen for service, because being "holy and blameless" IS about serving God.

In fact, consider what ELSE Paul wrote to the Ephesians (same letter, same context).

Eph 4:1 - As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received.

This is just another way to urge believers to live a life of holiness and blamelessness.

Eph 5:27 - and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless.

This is how God wants to "present the church to Himself". Again, this is about service, not being chosen for salvation.

 

[FreeGrace2]

It is when you start with Christ as the elected one and abstractly/incorrectly derive the service of His followers to be election,

You just miss the point. I started with Jesus Christ as The Chosen (Elected) One. He was elected. For what, exactly? Service.

Ever hear of the "suffering servant"? That is Jesus Christ. Throughout the gospels He made the point that He was serving His Father.

Providing service is NOT Election.

Then give me a verse that shows election being to salvation.

I don't know which verse(s) you are referring to regarding angels and Israel,

Good grief. They were included in my long list. So you really DIDN'T read through it.

Here are the verses regarding angels being elected:

Angels were elected to service:

1 Tim 5:21 - I charge you, in the sight of God and Christ Jesus and the elect angels, to keep these instructions without partiality, and to do nothing out of favoritism.

Heb 1:7 - In speaking of the angels he says, “He makes his angels spirits, and his servants flames of fire.”

Heb 1:14 - Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?

Rev 19:10 - At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers and sisters who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For it is the Spirit of prophecy who bears testimony to Jesus.”

Rev 22:8,9 8 I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me. 9 But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your fellow prophets and with all who keep the words of this scroll. Worship God!”

Very clear.

Now, for the nation of Israel:

Election of Israel: Amos 3:2 "You only have I chosen among all the families of the earth; Therefore, I will punish you for all your iniquities."

Deut 7:6 "For you are a holy people to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.

Luke 11:54 “He has helped his servant Israel, remembering to be merciful”

Again, very clear.

Not according to the verses that I provided.

Honestly, I haven't seen ANY verses that you provided that shows election being to salvation. You only presume they mean that.

I have provided verses that clearly show the purpose of election being to service.

Grace is given to the Election unto salvation.

This doesn't make sense. Where do you get this idea from in the Bible?

Service is a product of salvation, but after the fact.

No it is NOT a "product" of salvation, as if it is automatic or guaranteed. But of course, that is what calvinists presume.

If service as a product of salvation was automatic or guaranteed, there would have been NO NEED for all the commands for it.

It is commanded BECAUSE it isn't automatic or guaranteed. Not even Eph 2:10 shows it will occur. In fact, just the opposite.

Here (post #2113):

[Mat 24:24, 31 KJV]
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect. ...

Nothing about salvation from election. It only describes people as being elect.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Ditto.

[Luk 18:7 KJV]
7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?
[Rom 8:33 KJV]
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? [It is] God that justifieth.
[Col 3:12 KJV]
12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
[1Pe 1:2 KJV]
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
[Mar 13:22, 27 KJV]
22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if [it were] possible, even the elect. ...
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
[Tit 1:1 KJV] 1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

[Rom 11:5-6 KJV]
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

All of these verses mention "the elect" or "election" but NONE of them shows election to be for salvation.

I really can't understand why you CAN'T see that. It is glaringly obvious.

No, I don't assume anything.

Of course you are. You STILL haven't provided any verses that actually show that election is to salvation.

This is why the Bible instructs that no verse of Scripture is of any private interpretation.

Then please QUITE doing it!!!!! Quote verses that actually show that the purpose of election is to salvation. You have NOT DONE THAT yet. But you've certainly presumed that verses mean that.

We are to associate other verses to draw a correct interpretation.

Precisely what my long list does. I have associated verses about those who were elected to show WHY they were elected. iow, the purpose of their election was to service.

btw, you haven't commented on Judas and John 6;70,71. He was chosen, along with the 11, but he was chosen as the one who would betray Him. And you cannot deny that. So these verses prove my point about election.

Do you believe that Judas was chosen to salvation?

To answer your question directly, we are shown this by the below verse: grace saved by grace.

[Eph 2:8 KJV]
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
It is "clearly" to you perhaps, but I disagree.

Why do you quote this verse? It's not about election or it would have mentioned election. It is about how one is saved; which is THROUGH FAITH.

 

[rogerg]

So, let's think about Eph 1:4 a minute. The verse that calvinists always go to for their view of election. They say it is about salvation, but the verse does NOT say that, or even close to that.

First, in Eph 1-2, Paul repeatedly uses the SECOND person PLURAL throughout; "we" and "us". And in 1:19 he clearly defines the "us" as "us who believe". So right away we KNOW that Paul means all believers when he used "us" and "we".

So 1:4 means that God chose believers. Those already saved. So this verse cannot mean that God chose believers for salvation. The fact that God's choice was "before the foundation of the world" refers to His omniscience; He has always known who will believe.

Logical impossibility. They weren't even born when they were chosen. If they had/have free will (which I assume is what you believe), then given that, God couldn't have made the statement He did. The only way He could have honestly made it is if He had committed Himself to bringing it to fruition by Himself alone and not by being dependent upon anything or anyone else.

There are NO verses that show that God decides who will believe. Without any evidence, it's only an opinion.

This verse does:

[Jhn 6:29 KJV] 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Look FreeGrace2, I don't mean to be rude but at least for the time being, I'd rather not go through each and every point you may think up or speculate about in order for me to disprove them. You know what I believe and why, and I know the same about you. So, as my time and desire permit, I'll periodically respond to what you've posted.

 

[rogerg]

Why do you quote this verse? It's not about election or it would have mentioned election. It is about how one is saved; which is THROUGH FAITH.

Okay, one more. You know why - the verse says by GRACE are ye saved. You said that I didn't associate grace to salvation. It is as clear there as it can be. Now, if you want to debate the rest of the verse, that would be a different matter. But, nevertheless, if one has been given grace, they have been given salvation too

 

[fredoheaven]

Salvation is to service. For everyone who is saved.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Thanks Grandpa for helping me up as you have carefully choose a verse that good works are pre ordained. Service being the resultant of faith that saves. Yes, saved to serve.

 

[John146]

It isn't a matter when it came or was written, it is all from the Bible, isn't it? If you choose to use those criteria, you'll have to discard most of the New Testament.

You stated that God hated Esau before the womb. That's not in the Bible. When God stated He hated Esau, it was hundreds of years later and it was concerning the nation that came from Esau, not the person Esau.

 

[rogerg]

You stated that God hated Esau before the womb. That's not in the Bible. When God stated He hated Esau, it was hundreds of years later and it was concerning the nation that came from Esau, not the person Esau.

What is your point?

 

[John146]

What is your point?

My point is, you were wrong for stating that God hated Esau before he was in the womb. That's not what Scripture says.

 

[rogerg]

My point is, you were wrong for stating that God hated Esau before he was in the womb. That's not what Scripture says.

Did I say before he was in the womb? That doesn't sound like something I would say, but if I did, my mistake, I meant from the womb not before the womb. However, I agree, that they were used as symbolic of something else, that is, they being the two spiritual nations of the Bible: the nation of the saved (elect) and the nation of the unsaved (non-elect). Anyway, the Bible does say that God had determined from the womb that the elder would serve the younger. Why, as neither had done good nor evil? The Jewish custom, I believe, was that the birthright belonged to the first-born male (Esau). So, for what reason do you think God chose to reverse it in that manner?
By the way, while it may have been written in Malachi, that doesn't mean Malachi wasn't a reference by God back to their births. God often chooses to provide additional details about a biblical doctrine and/or a biblical event throughout the whole Bible as He had it written as one integrated book.

 

[John146]

Anyway, the Bible does say that God had determined from the womb that the elder would serve the younger.

Yes, that's what election is about...service, never salvation.

 

[rogerg]

Yes, that's what election is about...service, never salvation.

According to you maybe but not according to the Bible. I'd rather not to go through the same debate with you that I had with FreeGrace2. Please see my posts with him for details.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Logical impossibility. They weren't even born when they were chosen.

Your comment is irrelevant. What IS relevant is that God is omniscient and therefore has ALWAYS known who will and who will not believe in His Son. No problem for Him.

So, Eph 1:4 teaches that God from before the foundation of the world chose believers for service (to be holy and blameless).

Easy peasy.

If they had/have free will (which I assume is what you believe), then given that, God couldn't have made the statement He did.

Why are you denying God's omniscience? Of course he has always known HOW man uses his freedom to make choices.

The only way He could have honestly made it is if He had committed Himself to bringing it to fruition by Himself alone and not by being dependent upon anything or anyone else.

This is just calvinist opinion.

The truth: God, being omniscient, has always known who will and who will not believe in His Son. And He chose those who will believe (which He knows) for service.

This verse does:

[Jhn 6:29 KJV] 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Did you look at the context to understand why Jesus said it that way? OK, then, let's do.

28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?” Here, the Jews express their erroneous idea that God requires WORKS to be saved. Hence, keeping the law was their way of salvation.

29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.” Since the Jews asked about "the works God requires",
Jesus answered tongue-in-cheek by calling faith a work, which it ISN'T, according to Eph 2;8,9 and Rom 4:4,5.

Look FreeGrace2, I don't mean to be rude but at least for the time being, I'd rather not go through each and every point you may think up or speculate about in order for me to disprove them.

You make me lol. You haven't even quoted ANY verse that clearly shows election to salvation, and you really think you are going to disprove any of my points? Are you kidding?

In addition to 1 Cor 1:27,28, which CLEARLY shows that God chooses people to do certain things which are not about salvation, also consider 1 Pet 1:2, which also clearly shows that election is to obedience. Maybe you don't think being obedient is a service, but just ask anyone who has servants and pay attention to his answer to that question.

You know what I believe and why, and I know the same about you.

Actually, I DON'T know WHY you believe that election is to salvation. You have absolutely NO evidence from Scripture to back up your belief, none whatsoever.

Unlike myself, who has shown over and over clear verses that include the purpose of election to be service. You just don't want to accept it, apparently.

So, as my time and desire permit, I'll periodically respond to what you've posted.

I've posted ENOUGH verses for you to ponder. I KNOW that you can't refute ANY of them.