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Dear Journeyman,
You said:
No it isn't, but that's what it becomes to people who don't examine their own heart by it.
The Old Covenant is based on the outward works of man trying to be acceptable to God. Those works will always fail. When a person comes to that realization, that knowledge will lead them to Christ, who will do all the necessary spiritual work to change us.
No one has ever been saved by the Old Covenant of works. If they could be, the work of Christ would not be necessary.
Your understanding of the Old Covenant and the New Covenant seems to mix the two covenants together. I suspect you do this because of your belief in "free will".
The truth is mankind was created spiritually marred and subject to vanity. No amount of man's supposed "free will" ability can change this spiritual flaw as you seem to suggest.
Rom 8:20-22 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope
Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
If we could examine our heart, this is what we would fine:
Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
Mankind has no power to change the evil heart which God created in us. That work of change is spiritual work and can only be done by Christ. The Old Covenant of Law was given to prove this truth to us.
Christ was sent to mankind to make that spiritual change within us. When He does this spiritual work within us, this prophesy below will be fulfilled:
Jer 24:7 And I will give them an heart to know me, that I am the LORD: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God: for they shall return unto me with their whole heart.
Christ must GIVE us a new heart and He does this by giving us the gift of the Holy Spirit.
You said:
Hopefully, people will come to understand that the Word and Spirit are One.
I'm not sure how this statement applies to my comments.
And as for your statement, it is not exactly true. Here is a true statement:
Christ (Word) and the Father are "one". This is true because the "full measure" of the Father's Spirit indwells Christ and this is what causes them to be "one". Someday, all mankind will likewise be "one" with the Father and this is accomplished by the same indwelling Holy Spirit that Christ was given by His Father.
John 10:30 I and my Father are one.
John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
1Cor 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
1Cor 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Joe
Dear Journeyman,
You said:
No it isn't, but that's what it becomes to people who don't examine their own heart by it.
The Old Covenant is based on the outward works of man trying to be acceptable to God. Those works will always fail. When a person comes to that realization, that knowledge will lead them to Christ, who will do all the necessary spiritual work to change us.
No one has ever been saved by the Old Covenant of works. If they could be, the work of Christ would not be necessary.
Your understanding of the Old Covenant and the New Covenant seems to mix the two covenants together. I suspect you do this because of your belief in "free will".
The truth is mankind was created spiritually marred and subject to vanity. No amount of man's supposed "free will" ability can change this spiritual flaw as you seem to suggest.
Rom 8:20-22 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope
Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
If we could examine our heart, this is what we would fine:
Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
Mankind has no power to change the evil heart which God created in us. That work of change is spiritual work and can only be done by Christ. The Old Covenant of Law was given to prove this truth to us.
Christ was sent to mankind to make that spiritual change within us. When He does this spiritual work within us, this prophesy below will be fulfilled:
Jer 24:7 And I will give them an heart to know me, that I am the LORD: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God: for they shall return unto me with their whole heart.
Christ must GIVE us a new heart and He does this by giving us the gift of the Holy Spirit.
You said:
Hopefully, people will come to understand that the Word and Spirit are One.
I'm not sure how this statement applies to my comments.
And as for your statement, it is not exactly true. Here is a true statement:
Christ (Word) and the Father are "one". This is true because the "full measure" of the Father's Spirit indwells Christ and this is what causes them to be "one". Someday, all mankind will likewise be "one" with the Father and this is accomplished by the same indwelling Holy Spirit that Christ was given by His Father.
John 10:30 I and my Father are one.
John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
1Cor 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
1Cor 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Joe
Dear Journeyman,
"Chaff" is a spiritual term. It represents mankind in our spiritually marred condition we all have from birth:
Job 21:18 The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.
Psa 1:4 Let them be as chaff before the wind: and let the angel of the LORD chase them.
"Chaff" is the old vessel which must be destroyed so that we can be "born again".
When Christ comes to a chosen believer with the Latter Rain, He baptizes them with His Spirit, heals their spiritual blindness and judges the religious aspect of their carnal nature which caused them to become a "Man of Sin". From these gifts and works, the chosen believer is "born again" and made into a new vessel.
The first part of our carnal nature to be destroyed by judgment is it's religious aspect. The spiritual term used to represent this religious aspect of our carnal nature is "Mystery Babylon the Great". This aspect is what causes us to become a "Man of Sin" and to approach Christ by religion (man's works) rather than by faith. Salvation cannot come to us until this aspect of our carnal nature has been destroyed. For that reason, it is destroyed quickly, in "one hour".
Rev 18:19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.
Mystery Babylon the Great is the religious component of our carnal nature. It is also called:
Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city (Jerusalem), which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
Rev 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.
After the chosen believer's Mystery Babylon the Great (Jerusalem) is destroyed from within the believer, they are saved but their judgment is not complete. The remaining portion of their carnal nature must also be destroyed. This judgment is represented by the thousand years reign of Christ. The number 1000 is understood as 10x10x10 which is 10 to the 3rd power. The number 10 spiritually represents mankind's "flesh" (carnal nature) and the number 3 spiritually represents a complete spiritual process. This process in this case is judgment. This judgment of our flesh does not happen quickly like the judgment of Mystery Babylon does. It can take many years. But once this judgment is complete, the chosen believer's old vessel is completely destroyed. They are now ready to be tested by Satan when he is loosed for a "little season".
Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
Judgment of the chosen believer is taught in a few places of scripture (not in as much detail as Revelation) and is concealed in the spiritual language of Christ. Here is where it is taught in the Parable of the Wheat and the Tares:
24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: 25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. 26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. 27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? 28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? 29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn. 31 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field: 32 Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof. 33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened. 34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them: 35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world. 36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. 37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; 38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. 40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
This parable is one of the "the kingdom of Heaven is like" parables. All parables that start off in this manner are teaching on certain aspects of the pathway to salvation.
Christ said the Kingdom of Heaven comes "within" a person so these parables must be applied "within" us. They are spiritual and the spiritual happens "within" us which is where the work of the New Covenant occurs. The Old Covenant is outward and tries to make one righteous through man's outward works. But the New Covenant is spiritual and is Christ's work of changing us spiritually.
The teaching of the parable of the Wheat and the Tares must be applied within a person to properly understand its meaning. In short, the harvest at the end of the world is a believer's moment of conversion when they receive the Latter Rain of the Spirit from Christ. That is the point when the "Man of Sin", who is of this world, is destroyed and the new child of God, who is of the Kingdom of Heaven, is born.
Here is a short summary of the meaning of the parable:
Mankind is the field in the world. When Christ comes to us the first time with the Early Rain of the Spirit (what Paul received on the Damascus Road), Christ plants His seed of the Holy Spirit (Spirit of Truth) within us. At that time, the new child of God is in the womb but not yet born. When it grows into wheat, the unborn child will be ready to be born into the kingdom of Heaven (ready to be harvested).
However, at the time Christ plants His seed within us, He leaves us spiritually blind and we cannot understand the truth of God (Paul's blindness, Mark 8:21-25 & Mat 12:43-45). In other words, Christ does not "appear" to us at the time of the Early Rain because we cannot "see" Him. The Word of God remains veiled from our understanding.
Soon after we receive the Early Rain of the Spirit, Satan comes to us at night (our time of spiritual blindness) and plants His seed (spirit of anti-Christ, lies and deceptions) within us, too. When his seed grows into a tare (child of the Devil, Man of Sin), it is ready for judgment (burned).
As a result of both the child of God and the child of the Devil living within the believer, they mix "faith" with "works". This mixture causes us to "fall away" because we cannot serve two masters (Mat 6:24). This is the sin (man's works) that leads to death. Once we have fallen away from the truth, we cannot be renewed by repentance (Heb 6:4-6). Our only hope for salvation is for Christ to "come again". He does so when the wheat is ready to be harvested. This second coming event is the Latter Rain of the Spirit. It is the same event that the Apostles received in the Upper Room and the same event Paul experienced after being blind and in bed in Damascus for three days. It is also called the Baptism of the Spirit.
At the time the harvest (Latter Rain), Christ heals our spiritual blindness. The Man of Sin is "revealed" to us and judged (burned by fire). He is destroyed by the brightness of Christ's appearing to us. Christ's "appearance" happens because our spiritual blindness has been healed. Then, for the first time, we can understand the truth of God through scripture. After the tares (child of the devil) are fully burned by judgment, all that remains will be the child of God. The chosen believer is now ready for the bodily resurrection.
Joe
"Chaff" is a spiritual term. It represents mankind in our spiritually marred condition we all have from birth:
Job 21:18 The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.
Psa 1:4 Let them be as chaff before the wind: and let the angel of the LORD chase them.
"Chaff" is the old vessel which must be destroyed so that we can be "born again".
When Christ comes to a chosen believer with the Latter Rain, He baptizes them with His Spirit, heals their spiritual blindness and judges the religious aspect of their carnal nature which caused them to become a "Man of Sin". From these gifts and works, the chosen believer is "born again" and made into a new vessel.
The first part of our carnal nature to be destroyed by judgment is it's religious aspect. The spiritual term used to represent this religious aspect of our carnal nature is "Mystery Babylon the Great". This aspect is what causes us to become a "Man of Sin" and to approach Christ by religion (man's works) rather than by faith. Salvation cannot come to us until this aspect of our carnal nature has been destroyed. For that reason, it is destroyed quickly, in "one hour".
Rev 18:19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.
Mystery Babylon the Great is the religious component of our carnal nature. It is also called:
Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city (Jerusalem), which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
Rev 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.
After the chosen believer's Mystery Babylon the Great (Jerusalem) is destroyed from within the believer, they are saved but their judgment is not complete. The remaining portion of their carnal nature must also be destroyed. This judgment is represented by the thousand years reign of Christ. The number 1000 is understood as 10x10x10 which is 10 to the 3rd power. The number 10 spiritually represents mankind's "flesh" (carnal nature) and the number 3 spiritually represents a complete spiritual process. This process in this case is judgment. This judgment of our flesh does not happen quickly like the judgment of Mystery Babylon does. It can take many years. But once this judgment is complete, the chosen believer's old vessel is completely destroyed. They are now ready to be tested by Satan when he is loosed for a "little season".
Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
Judgment of the chosen believer is taught in a few places of scripture (not in as much detail as Revelation) and is concealed in the spiritual language of Christ. Here is where it is taught in the Parable of the Wheat and the Tares:
24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: 25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. 26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. 27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? 28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? 29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn. 31 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field: 32 Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof. 33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened. 34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them: 35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world. 36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. 37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; 38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. 40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
This parable is one of the "the kingdom of Heaven is like" parables. All parables that start off in this manner are teaching on certain aspects of the pathway to salvation.
Christ said the Kingdom of Heaven comes "within" a person so these parables must be applied "within" us. They are spiritual and the spiritual happens "within" us which is where the work of the New Covenant occurs. The Old Covenant is outward and tries to make one righteous through man's outward works. But the New Covenant is spiritual and is Christ's work of changing us spiritually.
The teaching of the parable of the Wheat and the Tares must be applied within a person to properly understand its meaning. In short, the harvest at the end of the world is a believer's moment of conversion when they receive the Latter Rain of the Spirit from Christ. That is the point when the "Man of Sin", who is of this world, is destroyed and the new child of God, who is of the Kingdom of Heaven, is born.
Here is a short summary of the meaning of the parable:
Mankind is the field in the world. When Christ comes to us the first time with the Early Rain of the Spirit (what Paul received on the Damascus Road), Christ plants His seed of the Holy Spirit (Spirit of Truth) within us. At that time, the new child of God is in the womb but not yet born. When it grows into wheat, the unborn child will be ready to be born into the kingdom of Heaven (ready to be harvested).
However, at the time Christ plants His seed within us, He leaves us spiritually blind and we cannot understand the truth of God (Paul's blindness, Mark 8:21-25 & Mat 12:43-45). In other words, Christ does not "appear" to us at the time of the Early Rain because we cannot "see" Him. The Word of God remains veiled from our understanding.
Soon after we receive the Early Rain of the Spirit, Satan comes to us at night (our time of spiritual blindness) and plants His seed (spirit of anti-Christ, lies and deceptions) within us, too. When his seed grows into a tare (child of the Devil, Man of Sin), it is ready for judgment (burned).
As a result of both the child of God and the child of the Devil living within the believer, they mix "faith" with "works". This mixture causes us to "fall away" because we cannot serve two masters (Mat 6:24). This is the sin (man's works) that leads to death. Once we have fallen away from the truth, we cannot be renewed by repentance (Heb 6:4-6). Our only hope for salvation is for Christ to "come again". He does so when the wheat is ready to be harvested. This second coming event is the Latter Rain of the Spirit. It is the same event that the Apostles received in the Upper Room and the same event Paul experienced after being blind and in bed in Damascus for three days. It is also called the Baptism of the Spirit.
At the time the harvest (Latter Rain), Christ heals our spiritual blindness. The Man of Sin is "revealed" to us and judged (burned by fire). He is destroyed by the brightness of Christ's appearing to us. Christ's "appearance" happens because our spiritual blindness has been healed. Then, for the first time, we can understand the truth of God through scripture. After the tares (child of the devil) are fully burned by judgment, all that remains will be the child of God. The chosen believer is now ready for the bodily resurrection.
Joe
Actually it was corkscrewed that way, but our Lord said,
you neglect what is more important in the law - justice, mercy, and faithfulness! Mt.23:23
So all humanity is born into this world with the ability to hope in God. But you ignore that part.
So read vvs.7-10 and learn how God says he molds people, instead of your false teaching that people can't understand anything God says.
the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. Jn.5:28-29
you neglect what is more important in the law - justice, mercy, and faithfulness! Mt.23:23
So all humanity is born into this world with the ability to hope in God. But you ignore that part.
So read vvs.7-10 and learn how God says he molds people, instead of your false teaching that people can't understand anything God says.
the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. Jn.5:28-29
Being a sinner is the result of ones own sin. People aren't born sinful. People become sinners through knowledge of good and evil.
No they aren't. Mankind consists of believers and unbelievers in the field, the world and,
the upright shall dwell in the land, and the perfect shall remain in it. But the wicked shall be cut off from the earth, and the transgressors shall be rooted out of it.
There's just too much error in what you're saying.
No they aren't. Mankind consists of believers and unbelievers in the field, the world and,
the upright shall dwell in the land, and the perfect shall remain in it. But the wicked shall be cut off from the earth, and the transgressors shall be rooted out of it.
There's just too much error in what you're saying.
The answer to the Problem of Evil is very simple, but it requires the death of the ego. It's simply man's fault for listening to the woman like he confessed to God. It's woman's fault for listening to Satan like she confessed to God. It's ultimately Satan's fault, he has no chance of hope or redemption. That old serpent and his entire army that he beguiled to his side by lies will be slaughtered by the Lord Jesus Christ, amen.
Dear Journeyman,
You said:
Actually it was corkscrewed that way, but our Lord said,
you neglect what is more important in the law - justice, mercy, and faithfulness! Mt.23:23
Carnally minded mankind who has a "desperately wicked" heart does not have the ability for "justice, mercy, and faithfulness. To correct that flaw, Christ came with the New Covenant where He will give us a new heart.
You said:
So all humanity is born into this world with the ability to hope in God. But you ignore that part.
Mankind does not have hope in Christ (God) from birth. Mankind has hope, but it is without foundation.
"Hope" in these verses below is speaking of the hope of the resurrection from the grave. Mankind has "hope" for life after death (redemption of our body) but that hope has no foundation.
Here is the full scripture:
Rom 8:20-25 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only that, but even we* ourselves, who have the first-fruits of the Spirit, we also ourselves groan in ourselves, awaiting adoption, that is the redemption of our body. For we have been saved in hope; but hope seen is not hope; for what any one sees, why does he also hope? But if what we see not we hope, we expect in patience.
For those who have the first-fruits of the Spirit, their hope has a foundation. The foundation of our hope is the resurrection of Christ. Unbelievers do not have this hope.
1Cor 15:12-19 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
You said:
So read vvs.7-10 and learn how God says he molds people, instead of your false teaching that people can't understand anything God says.
Jer 18:7-10 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.
You are not understanding these verses. Your understanding is based on false assumptions that mankind has good in them and has a free will ability to turn away from evil. Mankind does not have that ability.
If we turn away from evil, it is only because God has empowered us to do so:
Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.
Isa 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.
Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?
Isa 26:12 O Jehovah, Thou appointest peace to us, For, all our works also Thou hast wrought for us.
Mankind does not have a free will. You keep making the assumption that mankind can act independently from God's "will". Yes, God tells mankind to make the right choice and to turn from evil. He also told the Nation of Israel to follow the Law but they could not follow the "weightier matters" of justice, mercy and faith. Once a person realizes that they cannot be saved by their own works, that knowledge will lead them to Christ.
God has laid out a pathway for each person that will take them to salvation in Christ. He will direct their steps, produce their works and give them a new heart. He leads nothing to chance or to man's "will". If He did, no one would be saved:
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 3:10-11 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Also, I did not say that "people can't understand anything God says". I said the truth of Christ is hidden from mankind and is concealed in spiritual language. The Old Covenant of Law was given to the Nation of Israel and they understood what it directed them to do. They built a temple, they had annual sacrifices and so forth. But the Word is spiritual and without spiritual understanding, the truth of Christ will remain hidden. The carnal mind of man simply cannot understand and accept the truth of Christ, even when it is presented to them like I have been doing with you. Only the mind of Christ can understand and accept the truth and that is a gift from God.
Exd 4:11 And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?
Deut 29:4 Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.
Rev 2:29 He who has ears, let him give ear to what the Spirit says to the churches.
Joe
You said:
Actually it was corkscrewed that way, but our Lord said,
you neglect what is more important in the law - justice, mercy, and faithfulness! Mt.23:23
Carnally minded mankind who has a "desperately wicked" heart does not have the ability for "justice, mercy, and faithfulness. To correct that flaw, Christ came with the New Covenant where He will give us a new heart.
You said:
So all humanity is born into this world with the ability to hope in God. But you ignore that part.
Mankind does not have hope in Christ (God) from birth. Mankind has hope, but it is without foundation.
"Hope" in these verses below is speaking of the hope of the resurrection from the grave. Mankind has "hope" for life after death (redemption of our body) but that hope has no foundation.
Here is the full scripture:
Rom 8:20-25 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only that, but even we* ourselves, who have the first-fruits of the Spirit, we also ourselves groan in ourselves, awaiting adoption, that is the redemption of our body. For we have been saved in hope; but hope seen is not hope; for what any one sees, why does he also hope? But if what we see not we hope, we expect in patience.
For those who have the first-fruits of the Spirit, their hope has a foundation. The foundation of our hope is the resurrection of Christ. Unbelievers do not have this hope.
1Cor 15:12-19 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
You said:
So read vvs.7-10 and learn how God says he molds people, instead of your false teaching that people can't understand anything God says.
Jer 18:7-10 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.
You are not understanding these verses. Your understanding is based on false assumptions that mankind has good in them and has a free will ability to turn away from evil. Mankind does not have that ability.
If we turn away from evil, it is only because God has empowered us to do so:
Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.
Isa 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.
Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?
Isa 26:12 O Jehovah, Thou appointest peace to us, For, all our works also Thou hast wrought for us.
Mankind does not have a free will. You keep making the assumption that mankind can act independently from God's "will". Yes, God tells mankind to make the right choice and to turn from evil. He also told the Nation of Israel to follow the Law but they could not follow the "weightier matters" of justice, mercy and faith. Once a person realizes that they cannot be saved by their own works, that knowledge will lead them to Christ.
God has laid out a pathway for each person that will take them to salvation in Christ. He will direct their steps, produce their works and give them a new heart. He leads nothing to chance or to man's "will". If He did, no one would be saved:
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 3:10-11 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Also, I did not say that "people can't understand anything God says". I said the truth of Christ is hidden from mankind and is concealed in spiritual language. The Old Covenant of Law was given to the Nation of Israel and they understood what it directed them to do. They built a temple, they had annual sacrifices and so forth. But the Word is spiritual and without spiritual understanding, the truth of Christ will remain hidden. The carnal mind of man simply cannot understand and accept the truth of Christ, even when it is presented to them like I have been doing with you. Only the mind of Christ can understand and accept the truth and that is a gift from God.
Exd 4:11 And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?
Deut 29:4 Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.
Rev 2:29 He who has ears, let him give ear to what the Spirit says to the churches.
Joe
Dear Journeyman,
I don't think I would like to meet your old grade school principal. Seriously though, outward correction does not solve mankind's sin problem. A good spanking might stop a child from disobeying the school rules but it won't change his heart to obey the rules without that threat of punishment. Once Christ completes the destruction of our carnal nature and replaces it with God's nature, we will never sin again.
You said:
As for justice, mercy and faithfulness, Jesus wouldn't tell people to observe these things if they couldn't, but this is just one example where false doctrine portrays our God as a lunatic.
You sound like a TULIP guy.
Why do you believe Jesus wouldn't tell people to do things that they have no ability to do? What scriptures do you base your understanding on?
You must remember that God's ways are not mankind's ways. You should stop believing like they are:
Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
As I have said, Christ tells us to do the right things so when we discover we can't do them, we will turn to Him to give us that ability. We must learn to trust God for everything because He is the source of all things. Every step we take, we take by His direction. Scripture states this truth over and over again and never contradicts it. To believe that we can do anything in this life apart from God's "will" causing it to happen, is a lie from Satan. Trust scripture to teach you His truth and don't trust your human reasoning.
Prov 14:12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.
We are to walk by faith and not by sight (our human senses).
2Cor 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight
We must learn to trust what God tells us even when our carnal minds and human senses tell us differently. To do that takes a strong gift of faith. If you believe you need more faith, then pray for more. He is the giver of good gifts, especially spiritual gifts.
Your beliefs, like so many others, come from a works based belief system. It is a product of the carnal mind. It makes for a very self righteous Christian and will not save you.
Here is a verse that depicts the destruction of our carnal nature:
Mat 21:44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
The cornerstone (Christ) falls on a new believer shortly after they have received the Early Rain. It will grind the chosen believer to powder after they have received the Latter Rain and the grinding won't stop until Christ's judgment of their Old Man is complete.
Like the rich young man, you must give up all your worldly "riches" (carnal beliefs) and seek the true treasure of God (truth), then you will be able to follow Christ and receive salvation from His New Covenant.
What is a TULIP guy?
Joe
I don't think I would like to meet your old grade school principal. Seriously though, outward correction does not solve mankind's sin problem. A good spanking might stop a child from disobeying the school rules but it won't change his heart to obey the rules without that threat of punishment. Once Christ completes the destruction of our carnal nature and replaces it with God's nature, we will never sin again.
You said:
As for justice, mercy and faithfulness, Jesus wouldn't tell people to observe these things if they couldn't, but this is just one example where false doctrine portrays our God as a lunatic.
You sound like a TULIP guy.
Why do you believe Jesus wouldn't tell people to do things that they have no ability to do? What scriptures do you base your understanding on?
You must remember that God's ways are not mankind's ways. You should stop believing like they are:
Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
As I have said, Christ tells us to do the right things so when we discover we can't do them, we will turn to Him to give us that ability. We must learn to trust God for everything because He is the source of all things. Every step we take, we take by His direction. Scripture states this truth over and over again and never contradicts it. To believe that we can do anything in this life apart from God's "will" causing it to happen, is a lie from Satan. Trust scripture to teach you His truth and don't trust your human reasoning.
Prov 14:12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.
We are to walk by faith and not by sight (our human senses).
2Cor 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight
We must learn to trust what God tells us even when our carnal minds and human senses tell us differently. To do that takes a strong gift of faith. If you believe you need more faith, then pray for more. He is the giver of good gifts, especially spiritual gifts.
Your beliefs, like so many others, come from a works based belief system. It is a product of the carnal mind. It makes for a very self righteous Christian and will not save you.
Here is a verse that depicts the destruction of our carnal nature:
Mat 21:44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
The cornerstone (Christ) falls on a new believer shortly after they have received the Early Rain. It will grind the chosen believer to powder after they have received the Latter Rain and the grinding won't stop until Christ's judgment of their Old Man is complete.
Like the rich young man, you must give up all your worldly "riches" (carnal beliefs) and seek the true treasure of God (truth), then you will be able to follow Christ and receive salvation from His New Covenant.
What is a TULIP guy?
Joe
It does when we come to understand Gods' method of correction
Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; 1Pet.4:1
I agree not completely, but I offered it only as an example that people have the capacity to understand the things of God, justice etc.
Once we have his Spirit, we'll be at war with the carnal nature until we're six feet under.
Because I repented before the holy Spirit was given to me.
For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him. Mt.21:32
John preached a baptism of repentance.
He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. Act.19:2
Read the verse before it and you will see what, "Come now and let us reason together" means.
I understand we grow to know God better, but your belief that human beings are born with no more capacity to understand God than an aardvark is ridiculous.
Actually, Paul was referring to people who thought they were made right with God by having the end of their penis lopped off. By misunderstanding the problems Paul faced between Jew and gentile, people have twisted his words into heresy.
It's an acronym for Total depravity, Unconditional election, Limited atonement, Irresistible grace, and Perseverance of the saints. Sounds like what you're teaching.[/QUOTE]
Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; 1Pet.4:1
I agree not completely, but I offered it only as an example that people have the capacity to understand the things of God, justice etc.
Once we have his Spirit, we'll be at war with the carnal nature until we're six feet under.
Because I repented before the holy Spirit was given to me.
For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him. Mt.21:32
John preached a baptism of repentance.
He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. Act.19:2
Read the verse before it and you will see what, "Come now and let us reason together" means.
I understand we grow to know God better, but your belief that human beings are born with no more capacity to understand God than an aardvark is ridiculous.
Actually, Paul was referring to people who thought they were made right with God by having the end of their penis lopped off. By misunderstanding the problems Paul faced between Jew and gentile, people have twisted his words into heresy.
It's an acronym for Total depravity, Unconditional election, Limited atonement, Irresistible grace, and Perseverance of the saints. Sounds like what you're teaching.[/QUOTE]
Dear Journeyman,
Here is what I believe:
Phi 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Col 3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
Christ was not a disobedient son.
Do you have a verse in mind that makes you ask that question?
Joe
Here is what I believe:
Phi 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Col 3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
Christ was not a disobedient son.
Do you have a verse in mind that makes you ask that question?
Joe
[/QUOTE]
Dear Journeyman,
I'm not going to respond to most of your comments above. We have addressed those topics many times. I'm sure that if I were to present you with more scripture, it will not change your beliefs at this time. It doesn't appear that Christ has prepared your heart to receive what I am presenting.
Until Christ does His spiritual work within a person, it is not possible for them to accept His truth. He MUST change our hearts & minds and give us "eyes that can see" before we can "receive" His truth. In this age, this blessing is only given to His "chosen" First Fruits and that blessing is only given to them after He comes to them with both the Early and Latter Rain of the Spirit.
Jam 5:7-8 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the Early and Latter Rain. 8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.
James says a lot in these two verses and its meaning is hidden in spiritual language.
Christ is the Husbandman who is a farmer. The Precious Fruit of the Earth is the New Man in Christ who is to be harvested from the Earth. The Earth represents the carnal & sinful world. The farmer “hath long patience for it” because birthing many new Sons of God is a long process and is now just getting started with the harvest of the First-Fruits in this present age.
Christ even said:
Luke 12:49 I came to send fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled!
“Fire” is a spiritual term for the judgment of God. Without His judgment, no one would be saved. In the above verse, Christ longs to start that process of judgment upon mankind (The Elect first, then all others in the final age) but the time was not yet at hand. Since before the creation began, Christ has been waiting patiently for that day - the Day of the Lord. It is no wonder that “patience” is one of the fruits of the Spirit.
At the end of verse 7, James says that the growing season for Christ’s harvest of mankind starts with the Early Rain. It is at this point in time that a new believer will enter the Church. The Early Rain represents the receiving of the Holy Spirit. However, the “gifts” accompanying Early Rain of the Spirit are not sufficient for us to grow to maturity and produce fruit. We also need the Latter Rain which occurs when Christ “appears again” and baptizes us with His Spirit. After the Baptism of the Spirit, we finally have the ability to see Christ and to know the Truth. The sanctification process can then start so that we can grow to maturity and produce fruit.
James’ main purpose for writing these two verses is to tell us to have “patience” because the creation of a Son of God takes time and does not happen until a person receives the Early and Latter rain of the Spirit.
With all that being said, I think it is probably time to end our discussion.
I will address your comments on being a TULIP, though.
I am not a TULIP as you have defined it.
T: Total depravity: Mankind has an wicked heart, which causes all mankind to be sinful. Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? However, to suit God's own purposes, God does not cause all mankind to be "totally depraved". God limits the evil in the world which comes from mankind's sinful nature. God is in control of all things, even the evil He created.
U: Unconditional election: The Elect (First Fruits) will be saved because Christ will do His spiritual work within them and make them righteous. The word "unconditional" implies that a chosen person will still be acceptable, even while remaining in a rejecting and sinful condition. We are all sinful but we will not remain in that condition because of the work of Christ. Mankind has no "free will" ability to overcome the "will" of God. He will "change" our hearts and minds.
L: Limited atonement: no such thing. All mankind will be fully and irrevocably saved when Christ finishes His work.
I: Irresistible grace: no such thing. Grace is why Christ comes to us and saves us while we are in our sinful condition and undeserving state. I will say that no one can resist God's "will" of saving each and every one of us. Was Paul, the chief of sinners, able to resist the spiritual work of Christ which He did within Paul on the Damascus Road? Certainly not. From Paul's perspective, Paul was not even aware that Christ did His spiritual work within him. No one can resist the "will" of God. Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
P: Perseverance of the saints: Eph 6:18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints. That is what I believe.
Joe
Dear Journeyman,
I'm not going to respond to most of your comments above. We have addressed those topics many times. I'm sure that if I were to present you with more scripture, it will not change your beliefs at this time. It doesn't appear that Christ has prepared your heart to receive what I am presenting.
Until Christ does His spiritual work within a person, it is not possible for them to accept His truth. He MUST change our hearts & minds and give us "eyes that can see" before we can "receive" His truth. In this age, this blessing is only given to His "chosen" First Fruits and that blessing is only given to them after He comes to them with both the Early and Latter Rain of the Spirit.
Jam 5:7-8 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the Early and Latter Rain. 8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.
James says a lot in these two verses and its meaning is hidden in spiritual language.
Christ is the Husbandman who is a farmer. The Precious Fruit of the Earth is the New Man in Christ who is to be harvested from the Earth. The Earth represents the carnal & sinful world. The farmer “hath long patience for it” because birthing many new Sons of God is a long process and is now just getting started with the harvest of the First-Fruits in this present age.
Christ even said:
Luke 12:49 I came to send fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled!
“Fire” is a spiritual term for the judgment of God. Without His judgment, no one would be saved. In the above verse, Christ longs to start that process of judgment upon mankind (The Elect first, then all others in the final age) but the time was not yet at hand. Since before the creation began, Christ has been waiting patiently for that day - the Day of the Lord. It is no wonder that “patience” is one of the fruits of the Spirit.
At the end of verse 7, James says that the growing season for Christ’s harvest of mankind starts with the Early Rain. It is at this point in time that a new believer will enter the Church. The Early Rain represents the receiving of the Holy Spirit. However, the “gifts” accompanying Early Rain of the Spirit are not sufficient for us to grow to maturity and produce fruit. We also need the Latter Rain which occurs when Christ “appears again” and baptizes us with His Spirit. After the Baptism of the Spirit, we finally have the ability to see Christ and to know the Truth. The sanctification process can then start so that we can grow to maturity and produce fruit.
James’ main purpose for writing these two verses is to tell us to have “patience” because the creation of a Son of God takes time and does not happen until a person receives the Early and Latter rain of the Spirit.
With all that being said, I think it is probably time to end our discussion.
I will address your comments on being a TULIP, though.
I am not a TULIP as you have defined it.
T: Total depravity: Mankind has an wicked heart, which causes all mankind to be sinful. Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? However, to suit God's own purposes, God does not cause all mankind to be "totally depraved". God limits the evil in the world which comes from mankind's sinful nature. God is in control of all things, even the evil He created.
U: Unconditional election: The Elect (First Fruits) will be saved because Christ will do His spiritual work within them and make them righteous. The word "unconditional" implies that a chosen person will still be acceptable, even while remaining in a rejecting and sinful condition. We are all sinful but we will not remain in that condition because of the work of Christ. Mankind has no "free will" ability to overcome the "will" of God. He will "change" our hearts and minds.
L: Limited atonement: no such thing. All mankind will be fully and irrevocably saved when Christ finishes His work.
I: Irresistible grace: no such thing. Grace is why Christ comes to us and saves us while we are in our sinful condition and undeserving state. I will say that no one can resist God's "will" of saving each and every one of us. Was Paul, the chief of sinners, able to resist the spiritual work of Christ which He did within Paul on the Damascus Road? Certainly not. From Paul's perspective, Paul was not even aware that Christ did His spiritual work within him. No one can resist the "will" of God. Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
P: Perseverance of the saints: Eph 6:18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints. That is what I believe.
Joe
He's prepared me to know that the Potter is saying people who reject him are being molded for destruction.
It's obvious James is saying establish your heart before the Lord returns.
But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. Heb.10:27
I think so too. I'm just stunned by the many different beliefs on how our Lord will continue molding people after he returns, instead of realizing they've already been molded,
For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things. 1Jn.3:20
It's obvious James is saying establish your heart before the Lord returns.
But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. Heb.10:27
I think so too. I'm just stunned by the many different beliefs on how our Lord will continue molding people after he returns, instead of realizing they've already been molded,
For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things. 1Jn.3:20