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S
so what is freedom in Christ then? a cliche Christian expression that is not attainable until we become as Jesus now is?
actually no. we are free from condemnation (see post 20) and therefore the devil with all his assaults on our character and lives is lying when he suggests we are sinners because we still sin or we are guilty and would never sin if we really were saved etc etc
again the term, justified...we are no longer guilty
Romans 6...Paul says we are either slaves to sin or slaves to righteousness. We have been set free from sin by the blood of Christ
So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. John 8:36
very simply put, we are free when we put our faith/trust in all that Jesus accomplished for us on the cross
what are we free from? we are free from ALL condemnation whether lobbed at us from the devil, demons or other believers of the world
again, these are very simple terms and not meant to be a in depth study and I am not trying to teach anyone...but just pointing out what the Bible states about our standing in Christ before God
actually no. we are free from condemnation (see post 20) and therefore the devil with all his assaults on our character and lives is lying when he suggests we are sinners because we still sin or we are guilty and would never sin if we really were saved etc etc
again the term, justified...we are no longer guilty
Romans 6...Paul says we are either slaves to sin or slaves to righteousness. We have been set free from sin by the blood of Christ
So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. John 8:36
very simply put, we are free when we put our faith/trust in all that Jesus accomplished for us on the cross
what are we free from? we are free from ALL condemnation whether lobbed at us from the devil, demons or other believers of the world
again, these are very simple terms and not meant to be a in depth study and I am not trying to teach anyone...but just pointing out what the Bible states about our standing in Christ before God
S
the only problem I have with using scripture is the misuse of scripture. certainly not trying to tell anyone not to post scripture
again, positionally, we are righteous before God and that is why Paul refers to believers receiving his letters as 'saints'...meaning righteous as per the understanding of scripture
some of the ways the Holy Spirit acts in our lives:
Teacher, Helper, Guide, Comforter and there is more
one thing... the Holy Spirit will never delude us or misguide us, but that is not insurance that we cannot be led astray. the Christian life is one where we are supposed to be aware and use discernment. we do not get there overnight
and you ask 'what does it mean to be a true Christian? everyone who is saved by the blood of Christ, who believes in him and has faith in Him is a TRUE Christian
we are not all the same and we are not all at the same level of understanding, discernment or ability.
people who have lived a lifetime of following Jesus understand that there is no end in Him and the individual's walk is pretty much how they walk after Him
If we don’t feel the sorrow for our sins first it doesn’t lead to real repentance that’s why Paul made them all aware of their sin when he heard of it
“Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing.
For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, what clearing of yourselves, yea, what indignation, yea, what fear, yea, what vehement desire, yea, what zeal, yea, what revenge! In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.”
2 Corinthians 7:9-11 KJV
if we act like our sins don’t matter or we ignore them well Never find that Godly sorrow that leads to repentance and works salvation
Godly sorrow is when you become aware of your sins and it makes you feel sorrowful that you are walking contrary to the lords will.
worldly sorrow is to be sorry you don’t have what you want in the world or feel like people are picking on you ect the worldly things that make us sorry
if we are sinning as a Christian it should bring sorrow that presses us into repentance and then comes the joy and freedom
“Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing.
For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, what clearing of yourselves, yea, what indignation, yea, what fear, yea, what vehement desire, yea, what zeal, yea, what revenge! In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.”
2 Corinthians 7:9-11 KJV
if we act like our sins don’t matter or we ignore them well Never find that Godly sorrow that leads to repentance and works salvation
Godly sorrow is when you become aware of your sins and it makes you feel sorrowful that you are walking contrary to the lords will.
worldly sorrow is to be sorry you don’t have what you want in the world or feel like people are picking on you ect the worldly things that make us sorry
if we are sinning as a Christian it should bring sorrow that presses us into repentance and then comes the joy and freedom
Saint:
"Gather my saints together unto me; those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice." - Psalm 50:5 KJV
"Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:" - 1 Corinthians 5:7 KJV
"Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ." - 1 Peter 2:5 KJV
Sinner:
"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" - Romans 3:23 KJV
"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." - 1 John 1:8 KJV
"All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death." - 1 John 5:17 KJV
"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:" - Romans 3:10 KJV
Saints struggle with Sin:
"I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin." - Romans 7:21-25 KJV
"But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart." - Matthew 5:28 KJV
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:" - Ephesians 2:8 KJV
"Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ." - 1 Corinthians 11:1-3 KJV
The correct conclusion can only be that sainthood (membership in the covenant of Christ) and sin (misalignment from righteousness) are not mutually exclusive when speaking about a person as a whole. Scripture goes into detail about the body dying but the spirit living through Christ: the Adam from earth and the Adam from heaven. When Christ speaks to the adulteress and states "sin no more", is Christ talking to the sinful body or the spirit within her? In the parable of the wheat, is the whole wheat saved? No. Only the purified fruit is while the chaff is separated and blown away.
Paul was a sinner. Paul was a saint. There is a part of Paul that is destined for death and a part of Paul that is destined for life. There is a part of the wheat that is destined for death and a part of the wheat that is destined for life.
We would be mistaken to say that one is by necessity wholly saintly or wholly sinful. Only by the completion of the purification could this be the case. The dichotomy of "one is either a saint or a sinner" (while interesting) does not follow scripture.
"Gather my saints together unto me; those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice." - Psalm 50:5 KJV
"Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:" - 1 Corinthians 5:7 KJV
"Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ." - 1 Peter 2:5 KJV
Sinner:
"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" - Romans 3:23 KJV
"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." - 1 John 1:8 KJV
"All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death." - 1 John 5:17 KJV
"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:" - Romans 3:10 KJV
Saints struggle with Sin:
"I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin." - Romans 7:21-25 KJV
"But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart." - Matthew 5:28 KJV
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:" - Ephesians 2:8 KJV
"Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ." - 1 Corinthians 11:1-3 KJV
The correct conclusion can only be that sainthood (membership in the covenant of Christ) and sin (misalignment from righteousness) are not mutually exclusive when speaking about a person as a whole. Scripture goes into detail about the body dying but the spirit living through Christ: the Adam from earth and the Adam from heaven. When Christ speaks to the adulteress and states "sin no more", is Christ talking to the sinful body or the spirit within her? In the parable of the wheat, is the whole wheat saved? No. Only the purified fruit is while the chaff is separated and blown away.
Paul was a sinner. Paul was a saint. There is a part of Paul that is destined for death and a part of Paul that is destined for life. There is a part of the wheat that is destined for death and a part of the wheat that is destined for life.
We would be mistaken to say that one is by necessity wholly saintly or wholly sinful. Only by the completion of the purification could this be the case. The dichotomy of "one is either a saint or a sinner" (while interesting) does not follow scripture.
(from https://christianchat.com/threads/the-meaning-of-mature.202005/post-4680651)
Consider the following.
Heb 10:1, For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
Heb 10:2, For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
Now, considering that the word "perfect" actually means "mature" we need to understand that if anyone is mature, they will have no more conscience of sins.
Therefore, are they simply oblivious to what is in all reality there in their lives?
Consider.
1Jo 1:7, But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
If we are walking in the light, will not any sin that is present in our lives be exposed to the light and brought out into the open?
Even as it is written,
Jhn 3:20, For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
Jhn 3:21, But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
Therefore, if I am walking in the light, and am not sanctified in the sense of being set free from sin, my sin will be exposed; and I will continue to have a conscience of sins.
If I am mature, I do not any longer have any conscience of sins. Which indicates that perfect, in Hebrews 10:1 (and everywhere else in scripture) does indeed mean "perfect".
Consider also the following.
Col 1:21, And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
Col 1:22, In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
Jde 1:24, Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
"holy", "unblameable", "unreproveable".
"faultless"
Are you going to come up with alternate meanings for these words also? Do these words also not mean "perfect"?
I suppose that we can cross off holy...for that has been re-defined as "set apart" (however in this re-definition, the word "holy" has been stripped of its meaning, impaho).
One might be able to cross off "unblameable" as referring to outward righteousness and holiness (except that God, in Hebrews 4:13, tells us that everything is open and naked to His sight; and this also refers to the inward parts of a man, which are either righteous or unrighteous (Matthew 23:25-28).
I don't think that anyone can cross off "unreproveable" or "faultless" however.
Consider the following.
Heb 10:1, For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
Heb 10:2, For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
Now, considering that the word "perfect" actually means "mature" we need to understand that if anyone is mature, they will have no more conscience of sins.
Therefore, are they simply oblivious to what is in all reality there in their lives?
Consider.
1Jo 1:7, But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
If we are walking in the light, will not any sin that is present in our lives be exposed to the light and brought out into the open?
Even as it is written,
Jhn 3:20, For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
Jhn 3:21, But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
Therefore, if I am walking in the light, and am not sanctified in the sense of being set free from sin, my sin will be exposed; and I will continue to have a conscience of sins.
If I am mature, I do not any longer have any conscience of sins. Which indicates that perfect, in Hebrews 10:1 (and everywhere else in scripture) does indeed mean "perfect".
Consider also the following.
Col 1:21, And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
Col 1:22, In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
Jde 1:24, Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
"holy", "unblameable", "unreproveable".
"faultless"
Are you going to come up with alternate meanings for these words also? Do these words also not mean "perfect"?
I suppose that we can cross off holy...for that has been re-defined as "set apart" (however in this re-definition, the word "holy" has been stripped of its meaning, impaho).
One might be able to cross off "unblameable" as referring to outward righteousness and holiness (except that God, in Hebrews 4:13, tells us that everything is open and naked to His sight; and this also refers to the inward parts of a man, which are either righteous or unrighteous (Matthew 23:25-28).
I don't think that anyone can cross off "unreproveable" or "faultless" however.
I reread your initial post and I can see where your going with this. People can equate their words as God's word and it's usually misdirected. But don't forget that God can use a person to help clarify a matter that He has spoken. We ough to remain humbled toward one another and be able to accept it when we're out of line.
Case and point right here. If we lead with this thought on the subject of "sinner/saint" scripture leaves very little room for debate. God says we're saints and we need to continue our walk in this light. I've always thought the "I'm a sinner saved by grace" was biblical for our ongoing walk. But, I can see now how this thought can mislead Christians and is closer to false doctrine.
Focus what we do through the eyes of the Lord. All of what we do is 'bad' unless done and motivated with the spirit of Godly love. Those are the actions that bear spiritual fruit that He can use to His ends (acts of charity/kindness, brotherly love...ect). It's Him that we answer to when it's all said and done; who cares what other ppl say.
Christians = happy when criticizing others...I highly disagree with that. Long story slightly short, I used to live with some married friends who were in an open relationship. I love them like family but I had to leave because I noticed how their actions were actually grieving me. They keep foolishly falling for the enemy's same tricks/snares which lead to this endless cycle of sin (petty arguments, discord in the home, feelings of worthlessness, fights) in all their relationships. Pointing this out only directed this anger/confusion towards me. If they only understood my motives they would see that I only want the best for them but that would require them to make a change. They were happy where they were so I had to let them be. Trust me I don't take pleasure nor pride in seeing loved ones living this way.
Case and point right here. If we lead with this thought on the subject of "sinner/saint" scripture leaves very little room for debate. God says we're saints and we need to continue our walk in this light. I've always thought the "I'm a sinner saved by grace" was biblical for our ongoing walk. But, I can see now how this thought can mislead Christians and is closer to false doctrine.
Focus what we do through the eyes of the Lord. All of what we do is 'bad' unless done and motivated with the spirit of Godly love. Those are the actions that bear spiritual fruit that He can use to His ends (acts of charity/kindness, brotherly love...ect). It's Him that we answer to when it's all said and done; who cares what other ppl say.
Christians = happy when criticizing others...I highly disagree with that. Long story slightly short, I used to live with some married friends who were in an open relationship. I love them like family but I had to leave because I noticed how their actions were actually grieving me. They keep foolishly falling for the enemy's same tricks/snares which lead to this endless cycle of sin (petty arguments, discord in the home, feelings of worthlessness, fights) in all their relationships. Pointing this out only directed this anger/confusion towards me. If they only understood my motives they would see that I only want the best for them but that would require them to make a change. They were happy where they were so I had to let them be. Trust me I don't take pleasure nor pride in seeing loved ones living this way.
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The_Unnamed_Servent, post: 4778596, member: 311965"]I reread your initial post and I can see where your going with this. People can equate their words as God's word and it's usually misdirected. But don't forget that God can use a person to help clarify a matter that He has spoken. We ough to remain humbled toward one another and be able to accept it when we're out of line.
Case and point right here. If we lead with this thought on the subject of "sinner/saint" scripture leaves very little room for debate. God says we're saints and we need to continue our walk in this light. I've always thought the "I'm a sinner saved by grace" was biblical for our ongoing walk. But, I can see now how this thought can mislead Christians and is closer to false doctrine.
what is your case and point? you are quite welcome to create your own op if you think this one is misleading. this is actually the Bible Discussion Forum.....not the debate forum.
our walk does not makes us saints. what makes us saints in God's sight is the blood of Christ and our faith in all He had done in our behalf.
"The_Unnamed_Servent, post: 4778596, member: 311965"]Focus what we do through the eyes of the Lord. All of what we do is 'bad' unless done and motivated with the spirit of Godly love. Those are the actions that bear spiritual fruit that He can use to His ends (acts of charity/kindness, brotherly love...ect). It's Him that we answer to when it's all said and done; who cares what other ppl say.
Christians = happy when criticizing others...I highly disagree with that. Long story slightly short, I used to live with some married friends who were in an open relationship. I love them like family but I had to leave because I noticed how their actions were actually grieving me. They keep foolishly falling for the enemy's same tricks/snares which lead to this endless cycle of sin (petty arguments, discord in the home, feelings of worthlessness, fights) in all their relationships. Pointing this out only directed this anger/confusion towards me. If they only understood my motives they would see that I only want the best for them but that would require them to make a change. They were happy where they were so I had to let them be. Trust me I don't take pleasure nor pride in seeing loved ones living this way.
this has nothing to do with the op. your personal thoughts are your personal thoughts. they are really not very valuable for understanding this op
Case and point right here. If we lead with this thought on the subject of "sinner/saint" scripture leaves very little room for debate. God says we're saints and we need to continue our walk in this light. I've always thought the "I'm a sinner saved by grace" was biblical for our ongoing walk. But, I can see now how this thought can mislead Christians and is closer to false doctrine.
what is your case and point? you are quite welcome to create your own op if you think this one is misleading. this is actually the Bible Discussion Forum.....not the debate forum.
our walk does not makes us saints. what makes us saints in God's sight is the blood of Christ and our faith in all He had done in our behalf.
"The_Unnamed_Servent, post: 4778596, member: 311965"]Focus what we do through the eyes of the Lord. All of what we do is 'bad' unless done and motivated with the spirit of Godly love. Those are the actions that bear spiritual fruit that He can use to His ends (acts of charity/kindness, brotherly love...ect). It's Him that we answer to when it's all said and done; who cares what other ppl say.
Christians = happy when criticizing others...I highly disagree with that. Long story slightly short, I used to live with some married friends who were in an open relationship. I love them like family but I had to leave because I noticed how their actions were actually grieving me. They keep foolishly falling for the enemy's same tricks/snares which lead to this endless cycle of sin (petty arguments, discord in the home, feelings of worthlessness, fights) in all their relationships. Pointing this out only directed this anger/confusion towards me. If they only understood my motives they would see that I only want the best for them but that would require them to make a change. They were happy where they were so I had to let them be. Trust me I don't take pleasure nor pride in seeing loved ones living this way.
this has nothing to do with the op. your personal thoughts are your personal thoughts. they are really not very valuable for understanding this op
Romans 7:14-25 is Paul using the literary tactic of IDENTIFICATION to identify himself as carnal in order to define carnality in order that he might win the carnal person to Christ.
The passage in question identifies "the law of sin and death" which is that "when I would do good, evil is present with me" (v.21).
Paul is clear in mentioning, in Romans 8:2, that he now has victory over the law of sin and death.
If Paul were carnal when he wrote Romans 7:14-25, then he was not holy; and if he was not holy, then he was not penning holy scripture (see 2 Peter 1:21).
A case can be made in scripture that the Romans 7:14-25 believer is not actually saved. But even if he is saved, a point that can be made is that it is an important attitude to have that is spoken of in verse 24, that a man be discontented with a lifestyle of sinning.
It is when a man has this attitude that the doctrine of entire sanctification (1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 (kjv), Hebrews 10:14 (kjv), 1 John 3:9 (kjv)) becomes good news to him.
I would say because of this that if the doctrine of entire sanctification is not good news to anyone, that they are farther away from salvation than they think and they really need to check themselves before they wreck themselves.
The passage in question identifies "the law of sin and death" which is that "when I would do good, evil is present with me" (v.21).
Paul is clear in mentioning, in Romans 8:2, that he now has victory over the law of sin and death.
If Paul were carnal when he wrote Romans 7:14-25, then he was not holy; and if he was not holy, then he was not penning holy scripture (see 2 Peter 1:21).
A case can be made in scripture that the Romans 7:14-25 believer is not actually saved. But even if he is saved, a point that can be made is that it is an important attitude to have that is spoken of in verse 24, that a man be discontented with a lifestyle of sinning.
It is when a man has this attitude that the doctrine of entire sanctification (1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 (kjv), Hebrews 10:14 (kjv), 1 John 3:9 (kjv)) becomes good news to him.
I would say because of this that if the doctrine of entire sanctification is not good news to anyone, that they are farther away from salvation than they think and they really need to check themselves before they wreck themselves.
Romans 8:2 is speaking from the perspective of the spirit. Romans 7 is phrased as a current state of being rather than something from his past. The take away is "yes, there is temptation and an urge to sin" which comes from his carnal body, but his spiritual body is pure and true through.
To those with the law he appears as though he has the law, etc. Yes, but he states in Romans 9:1 that he is not lying. It would not be consistent to assume he was being facetious in Romans 7. His identification would have to be true, even if we explore the possibility of exaggeration, Paul still speaks of having an evil/sinful nature present within him.
I see the appeal of trying to frame this as "a full sanctification" that completely erases sinful nature right then and there, but it doesn't jive well with the way that Paul is explaining it. The concept is that the spirit is sanctified and the carnal nature is nullified by walking in the spirit. Any time we see "I" or "you" we have to wonder whether these passages are talking about the "you" and "I" that is the spiritual nature, the carnal nature, or the entirety of both spiritual and carnal.
1 John 3:9 is talking about the part of us that is born of God, not the carnal being.
In Hebrews 10:14, it is still the spirit that is sanctified
In 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24, this still points to the spiritual self at the helm of the mind, soul, and body, not the carnal self.
That perspective of sinner and saint is consistent with the concept that even someone that is saved may have a bad day and become angry in the moment at a neighbour. There is no explicit statement in scripture that I'm aware of that states that one becomes wholly perfect at the moment of being in Christ. A part of that person may very well be, but not the whole of that person. The danger in exploring that thought is that by finding evidence of sin, that would render someone categorically never saved to begin with.
There is a clear continuity from Romans 7 to Romans 9. The holy part of him was that which wrote the scripture. The holy part of him was that which made an observation of the carnal part of him. There is an important nuance in this, and Paul goes through great lengths in an attempt to discuss this.
If one is observing entirely from their spiritual self, it can appear as though entire sanctification has been achieved. Paul's observations, and other notes in the Bible basically point to the idea that the sinful nature is still a part of the complete "you" even if you are able to think and experience clearly from an sanctified state. It would be like making the observation that you snore in your sleep but differentiating between the "you" that is conscious and the physiological "you" that snores. We still have to humbly take accountability for the fact that although we can see with a clear mind through the grace of God (or perhaps mistakenly believe God always gives us the same clarity), there are parts of our carnal nature that still remain. Wouldn't it be nice to leave that carnal nature behind? Paul talked about his yearning to be with God, but that by being present in the carnal world, he was able to spread the word.
Just because we think we don't sin doesn't make it true. We see this theme in many passages including 1 John 1:8.
To those with the law he appears as though he has the law, etc. Yes, but he states in Romans 9:1 that he is not lying. It would not be consistent to assume he was being facetious in Romans 7. His identification would have to be true, even if we explore the possibility of exaggeration, Paul still speaks of having an evil/sinful nature present within him.
I see the appeal of trying to frame this as "a full sanctification" that completely erases sinful nature right then and there, but it doesn't jive well with the way that Paul is explaining it. The concept is that the spirit is sanctified and the carnal nature is nullified by walking in the spirit. Any time we see "I" or "you" we have to wonder whether these passages are talking about the "you" and "I" that is the spiritual nature, the carnal nature, or the entirety of both spiritual and carnal.
1 John 3:9 is talking about the part of us that is born of God, not the carnal being.
In Hebrews 10:14, it is still the spirit that is sanctified
In 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24, this still points to the spiritual self at the helm of the mind, soul, and body, not the carnal self.
That perspective of sinner and saint is consistent with the concept that even someone that is saved may have a bad day and become angry in the moment at a neighbour. There is no explicit statement in scripture that I'm aware of that states that one becomes wholly perfect at the moment of being in Christ. A part of that person may very well be, but not the whole of that person. The danger in exploring that thought is that by finding evidence of sin, that would render someone categorically never saved to begin with.
There is a clear continuity from Romans 7 to Romans 9. The holy part of him was that which wrote the scripture. The holy part of him was that which made an observation of the carnal part of him. There is an important nuance in this, and Paul goes through great lengths in an attempt to discuss this.
If one is observing entirely from their spiritual self, it can appear as though entire sanctification has been achieved. Paul's observations, and other notes in the Bible basically point to the idea that the sinful nature is still a part of the complete "you" even if you are able to think and experience clearly from an sanctified state. It would be like making the observation that you snore in your sleep but differentiating between the "you" that is conscious and the physiological "you" that snores. We still have to humbly take accountability for the fact that although we can see with a clear mind through the grace of God (or perhaps mistakenly believe God always gives us the same clarity), there are parts of our carnal nature that still remain. Wouldn't it be nice to leave that carnal nature behind? Paul talked about his yearning to be with God, but that by being present in the carnal world, he was able to spread the word.
Just because we think we don't sin doesn't make it true. We see this theme in many passages including 1 John 1:8.
Rom 6:6, Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Col 2:11, In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
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1Jo 1:5, This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
1Jo 3:5, And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
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1Jo 5:20, And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
1Co 1:2, Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
1Co 1:30, But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
1Pe 5:14, Greet ye one another with a kiss of charity. Peace be with you all that are in Christ Jesus. Amen.
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1Co 5:7, Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
Col 2:11, In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
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1Jo 1:5, This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
1Jo 3:5, And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
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1Jo 5:20, And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
1Co 1:2, Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
1Co 1:30, But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
1Pe 5:14, Greet ye one another with a kiss of charity. Peace be with you all that are in Christ Jesus. Amen.
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1Co 5:7, Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
The fact is that Romans 7-9 shows that Paul both has evil inside of him and that he is of Christ (and specifically mentions that he is not lying). The only way to reconcile these elements is to interpret sanctification and sinful nature as gradients within a person that exist separated like water and oil. Whenever there is a reference to "you that are in Christ", this "you" should be understood to be in reference to the saint in that person and not the "you" that is the sinful Adam. The part of you in Christ has no sin. Scripture seems to point to the concept of a sinful nature, a saint nature, and the physical body (which is the temple).
Every passage from 1Jo 1:5, 1Jo 3:5, 1Jo 5:20, 1Co 1:2, 1Co 1:30, 1Pe 5:14, to 1Co 5:7 are addressed by the interpretation without conflict. The "you" being spoken to is the saint within the receiver of the words.
If we explore Rom 6:6 we see that "destroy" comes from the Greek καταργέω (Strong's 2673), which means to "render powerless" which also fits into the interpretation that evil is not annihilated by this process, only "rendered powerless".
Col 2:11 needs a lengthier explanation because it is using figurative speech with "cast off" or "putting off" in the same way that one might cast off a piece of clothing. We see many passages that talk about "the robes you wear" such as the man kicked out of the banquet hall in the parable of the wedding feast. Clothing is often a symbolism of what one identifies with. If one identifies with Christ and rejects the carnal nature, as Paul did, this would fit the "casting off" of the sinful body.
I think of all of the verses you mentioned in your last post, Rom 6:6 and Col 2:11 have the best value for exploring, and particularly by what is meant by "body of sin". I think there is also good value in more elaboration on how Rom 7-9 fits into a "whole sanctification" perspective without claiming that Paul wasn't saved, was lying, etc.
Ontology is a subtopic of metaphysics that deals with the exploration of the properties or nature of things. "John Doe is a farmer" is a statement which contains the ontological claim that the property or nature of being a farmer is inherent in John Doe. "He is John Doe" is a claim that the natures or properties that make up "John Doe" are also inherent in the person being referenced. Any conversation about how the Trinity works is also bound to run into disputes that are categorically ontological. This conversation about "sinner" and "saint" and the nature of an individual ("you", "I") is of course also ontological. I don't think we can reach a good conclusion until we explore this topic as an ontological problem, using scripture for the basis of a holistic ontological model that consistently addressing things like the Trinity, the diety of Christ, salvation, "self", etc.
Every passage from 1Jo 1:5, 1Jo 3:5, 1Jo 5:20, 1Co 1:2, 1Co 1:30, 1Pe 5:14, to 1Co 5:7 are addressed by the interpretation without conflict. The "you" being spoken to is the saint within the receiver of the words.
If we explore Rom 6:6 we see that "destroy" comes from the Greek καταργέω (Strong's 2673), which means to "render powerless" which also fits into the interpretation that evil is not annihilated by this process, only "rendered powerless".
Col 2:11 needs a lengthier explanation because it is using figurative speech with "cast off" or "putting off" in the same way that one might cast off a piece of clothing. We see many passages that talk about "the robes you wear" such as the man kicked out of the banquet hall in the parable of the wedding feast. Clothing is often a symbolism of what one identifies with. If one identifies with Christ and rejects the carnal nature, as Paul did, this would fit the "casting off" of the sinful body.
I think of all of the verses you mentioned in your last post, Rom 6:6 and Col 2:11 have the best value for exploring, and particularly by what is meant by "body of sin". I think there is also good value in more elaboration on how Rom 7-9 fits into a "whole sanctification" perspective without claiming that Paul wasn't saved, was lying, etc.
Ontology is a subtopic of metaphysics that deals with the exploration of the properties or nature of things. "John Doe is a farmer" is a statement which contains the ontological claim that the property or nature of being a farmer is inherent in John Doe. "He is John Doe" is a claim that the natures or properties that make up "John Doe" are also inherent in the person being referenced. Any conversation about how the Trinity works is also bound to run into disputes that are categorically ontological. This conversation about "sinner" and "saint" and the nature of an individual ("you", "I") is of course also ontological. I don't think we can reach a good conclusion until we explore this topic as an ontological problem, using scripture for the basis of a holistic ontological model that consistently addressing things like the Trinity, the diety of Christ, salvation, "self", etc.
This is incorrect. Paul was a saint possessing eternal life, and so is every person who has been sanctified by the blood of Christ and the indwelling Holy Spirit. While saints can sin, they remain saints. God sees every Christian -- in Christ -- as a saint (sanctified one). And the focus of saints must be their own sanctification. Therefore the Bible tells us to walk in the Spirit and that sin shall NOT have dominion over you.
Also, while Paul's body was subject to physical death (as are the bodies of all the saints unless raptured) his body was also subject to the resurrection (which is promised to all believers).
Also, while Paul's body was subject to physical death (as are the bodies of all the saints unless raptured) his body was also subject to the resurrection (which is promised to all believers).
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Sinless perfection in this life is impossible. A basic reading of the Scriptures makes this clear; why commands to not be conformed to this world if such conformity is not possible for the Christian to begin with? Why the commands to flee heinous sins if the Christian could not be tempted by them? The Scriptures allude to the Christian's "pain of existence" as their spirit groans against the fleshly prison in which we are confined.
While we won't be truly free from sin until we see Christ in eternity, by God's grace and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit we should be evidencing more and more holiness and spiritual maturity in our lives. This is the process of sanctification. This is what the Scriptures mean when they tell us to "work out our faith." It means an active pursuit of holiness as is appropriate for the believer, NOT that someone is saved by works.
I've had a very sensitive (arguably over-sensitive in some ways) conscience since I was a small child. I have always been keenly aware of my sins. Even as a Christian, I often struggle with the thought that I can never please God.
But pleasing God - Scripturally - is done through faith. Abraham believe God and it was counted to him for righteousness. I'm very glad of that, because I wrestle with my sinful flesh constantly.
While we won't be truly free from sin until we see Christ in eternity, by God's grace and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit we should be evidencing more and more holiness and spiritual maturity in our lives. This is the process of sanctification. This is what the Scriptures mean when they tell us to "work out our faith." It means an active pursuit of holiness as is appropriate for the believer, NOT that someone is saved by works.
I've had a very sensitive (arguably over-sensitive in some ways) conscience since I was a small child. I have always been keenly aware of my sins. Even as a Christian, I often struggle with the thought that I can never please God.
But pleasing God - Scripturally - is done through faith. Abraham believe God and it was counted to him for righteousness. I'm very glad of that, because I wrestle with my sinful flesh constantly.
The comment you're making here is just a dispute of what counts as a "sinner". The expression is commonly used to denote "one possessing a sinful nature" which Paul affirms he has in Romans 7. If we are exploring the context of "sinner" as one that is dominated by sinful nature, I would agree that Paul isn't a sinner.
I agree, and this is all I meant to express by saying "Paul was a sinner, Paul was a saint."
After resurrection and purification, one is left with an immortal body. In the same way that the wheat is separated from its chaff in the parable of the wheat, supposedly one will also be separated from sinful nature. And if that isn't the case, it is an interesting hypothetical that the inhabitants of the kingdom after earth and heaven fade away would retain a (silenced) sinful nature. We come to the question of the fulfilment of sanctification (hypothetically after resurrection and purification) and whether sinful nature is removed or present afterwards.
I agree, and this is all I meant to express by saying "Paul was a sinner, Paul was a saint."
After resurrection and purification, one is left with an immortal body. In the same way that the wheat is separated from its chaff in the parable of the wheat, supposedly one will also be separated from sinful nature. And if that isn't the case, it is an interesting hypothetical that the inhabitants of the kingdom after earth and heaven fade away would retain a (silenced) sinful nature. We come to the question of the fulfilment of sanctification (hypothetically after resurrection and purification) and whether sinful nature is removed or present afterwards.
