The New Apostolic Reformation

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,777
113
#41
I don't believe that it's Biblical.
According to one source, here are the errors of the NAR:
1. Denies The Sufficiency Of God’s Word
2. Adds New Prophets And Apostles
3. Robs Jesus Of His Future Glory
4. Contradicts The Biblical Assessment Of The Last Days
5. Misrepresents The Church


You can read the entire analysis here:
https://www.raptureforums.com/bible-study/5-dangerous-errors-of-the-new-apostolic-reformation/

BEWARE OF FALSE PROPHETS, FALSE APOSTLES, AND FALSE TEACHERS.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
9,164
1,794
113
#42
The New Apostolic Reformation...commonly called NAR....is what is called a dominionist movement. You can also find this movement under other names such as Third Wave, Seven Mountains, Latter Rain, Kingdom Now, Joel's Army, Manifest Sons of God, and more. The assertion is that God is restoring the lost offices of church governance, with special focus on the office of Prophet and Apostle.
Here is an article by Bible scholar and radio host Michael Brown :https://askdrbrown.org/library/dispelling-myths-about-nar-new-apostolic-reformation that deals with how strangely and widely the 'NAR" label is used. People that are from older movements who did not join with some of Wagner's efforts or join his organizations get labeled 'NAR'.

Peter Wagner did a lot of things, be a missionary, lecture at Fuller Theological Seminary and write books on church growth, write books on church movements, write up and come up with practices that are labelled 'spiritual warfare'. Then he wrote a book about churches that are led by (what he considered or who called themselves) apostles. Then he started an actual organization after people were wanting him to lead a movement. I believe he had a book called 'New Apostolic Reformation.' So he had lists of people he thought were apostles all over the world, people joining his organization.

Wagner coined the terms 'third wave' and the term 'new apostolic reformation.' But 'Third Wave' is something like evangelicals that are like Charismatics, but might be less likely to believe in the 'initial evidence doctrine' but believe in spiritual gifts. And they weren't part of the Charismatic movement and may not have called themselves 'Charismatic.' He used 'third wave' because Pentecostal and Charismatic were his first two waves. This term was coined before "NAR" and it is not about the NAR. I think the term is from the 1980's and I do not really hear it today much. I don't know of anyone who thinks of himself or his church as 'third wave' unless he reads this niche stuff. I think Wagner would have put the '80's Vineyard in the Third Wave. Some of the other churches that were third wave might have affiliated with Wagner's NAR thing, but Third Wave does not mean NAR.

"Latter Rain" was a movement in the 1940s that emphasized prophesying and the Ephesians 4 ministries. Some of the congregations may have come from the Assemblies of God or maybe the affiliated Pentecostal Assemblies of Canada, but Latter Rain movement churches were independent. Some of those churches were still around the last I heard. That is not the NAR movement. It' solder.. NAR beliefs about Ephesians 4:11 might be similar and were probably influenced by it. I am not sure where 'five-fold ministry' as a description of ministries in Ephesians 4:11 comes from, but they used that term. There was the term 'four-fold ministry' in the Catholic Apostolic Church movement in the 1800s--presumably about the same thing since pastors and teachers are one group. Ephesians 4:11 is in the Bible.

Manifest Sons of God-- I think that was from the 1950s or 1960s-- Latter Rain eschatology with a kind of dominionist eschatology that thought there would be a 'manchild' company, their interpretation of the books of Revelation. I'm not totally clear on this, but Romans 8 mentions the manifestation of the sons of God. Maybe they thought some people would have resurrected like powers before the end or something like that. I read a bit about it, but details are fuzzy in my mind. They may have had some beliefs in common that NAR drew on decades later, but equating it with NAR doesn't make sense. Wagner had his own organizational affiliations and groups that interacted with him.

I think 'Joel's Army' is a concept about an army of believers in the last days. It relies on some very allegorical readings about a passage more literally about a foreign invading army. I'm thinking it was Assyria in Joel. Equating that with NAR? Based on the other ones so far, I'm skeptical.

Ephesians 4:11 ministries are in the Bible. I believe we should look to the Bible to understand how God works in the church rather than just relying on tradition. I find typical NAR ideas about what apostles are to be kind of fuzzy and loosely related to the overall picture in the Bible. Jesus sent out apostles, and their being apostles is associated with their being sent out with a commission to preach, heal, cast out devils and raise the dead. Paul and Barnabas' commission is in Acts 13, after which they were called 'apostles.' But Paul and Barnabas were preaching in unreached areas, not taking over existing structures or adding an extra layer of leadership to them so they could be their 'fathers'.

The NAR movement ideas has influenced a lot of churches in different ways. But Wagners group or Wagner had dominionist eschatology that seemed post-mil.

I would agree that some of the movements or at least some churches seem to make light use of scripture. I was raised Pentecostal and believe in spiritual gifts, but the churches I went to growing up made heavy use of scripture and studied it and taught out of it. So the times I've been around Charismatic people or around the signs and wonders movement churches and they have a looser use of scripture, I've found it troublesome.
 

Mission21

Pathfinder
Mar 12, 2019
913
805
93
#43
Here is an article by Bible scholar and radio host Michael Brown :https://askdrbrown.org/library/dispelling-myths-about-nar-new-apostolic-reformation that deals with how strangely and widely the 'NAR" label is used. People that are from older movements who did not join with some of Wagner's efforts or join his organizations get labeled 'NAR'.

Peter Wagner did a lot of things, be a missionary, lecture at Fuller Theological Seminary and write books on church growth, write books on church movements, write up and come up with practices that are labelled 'spiritual warfare'. Then he wrote a book about churches that are led by (what he considered or who called themselves) apostles. Then he started an actual organization after people were wanting him to lead a movement. I believe he had a book called 'New Apostolic Reformation.' So he had lists of people he thought were apostles all over the world, people joining his organization.

Wagner coined the terms 'third wave' and the term 'new apostolic reformation.' But 'Third Wave' is something like evangelicals that are like Charismatics, but might be less likely to believe in the 'initial evidence doctrine' but believe in spiritual gifts. And they weren't part of the Charismatic movement and may not have called themselves 'Charismatic.' He used 'third wave' because Pentecostal and Charismatic were his first two waves. This term was coined before "NAR" and it is not about the NAR. I think the term is from the 1980's and I do not really hear it today much. I don't know of anyone who thinks of himself or his church as 'third wave' unless he reads this niche stuff. I think Wagner would have put the '80's Vineyard in the Third Wave. Some of the other churches that were third wave might have affiliated with Wagner's NAR thing, but Third Wave does not mean NAR.

"Latter Rain" was a movement in the 1940s that emphasized prophesying and the Ephesians 4 ministries. Some of the congregations may have come from the Assemblies of God or maybe the affiliated Pentecostal Assemblies of Canada, but Latter Rain movement churches were independent. Some of those churches were still around the last I heard. That is not the NAR movement. It' solder.. NAR beliefs about Ephesians 4:11 might be similar and were probably influenced by it. I am not sure where 'five-fold ministry' as a description of ministries in Ephesians 4:11 comes from, but they used that term. There was the term 'four-fold ministry' in the Catholic Apostolic Church movement in the 1800s--presumably about the same thing since pastors and teachers are one group. Ephesians 4:11 is in the Bible.

Manifest Sons of God-- I think that was from the 1950s or 1960s-- Latter Rain eschatology with a kind of dominionist eschatology that thought there would be a 'manchild' company, their interpretation of the books of Revelation. I'm not totally clear on this, but Romans 8 mentions the manifestation of the sons of God. Maybe they thought some people would have resurrected like powers before the end or something like that. I read a bit about it, but details are fuzzy in my mind. They may have had some beliefs in common that NAR drew on decades later, but equating it with NAR doesn't make sense. Wagner had his own organizational affiliations and groups that interacted with him.

I think 'Joel's Army' is a concept about an army of believers in the last days. It relies on some very allegorical readings about a passage more literally about a foreign invading army. I'm thinking it was Assyria in Joel. Equating that with NAR? Based on the other ones so far, I'm skeptical.

Ephesians 4:11 ministries are in the Bible. I believe we should look to the Bible to understand how God works in the church rather than just relying on tradition. I find typical NAR ideas about what apostles are to be kind of fuzzy and loosely related to the overall picture in the Bible. Jesus sent out apostles, and their being apostles is associated with their being sent out with a commission to preach, heal, cast out devils and raise the dead. Paul and Barnabas' commission is in Acts 13, after which they were called 'apostles.' But Paul and Barnabas were preaching in unreached areas, not taking over existing structures or adding an extra layer of leadership to them so they could be their 'fathers'.

The NAR movement ideas has influenced a lot of churches in different ways. But Wagners group or Wagner had dominionist eschatology that seemed post-mil.

I would agree that some of the movements or at least some churches seem to make light use of scripture. I was raised Pentecostal and believe in spiritual gifts, but the churches I went to growing up made heavy use of scripture and studied it and taught out of it. So the times I've been around Charismatic people or around the signs and wonders movement churches and they have a looser use of scripture, I've found it troublesome.
Good post/comment.
---
Peter Wagner's spiritual journey was interesting..
- He was not into..'spiritual gifts'..in the beginning.
- Changed later on..
I met him..many years ago.
---
There are many streams/camps..in the 'Pentecostal & Charismatic Movement.'
- I have been observing..the Movement.
- From 1970's.
 

Evmur

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2021
5,219
2,618
113
London
christianchat.com
#44
It is proof that there is nothing new under the sun. There have always been things that distract from the teaching of the simple truth of the Gospel.
You got it ole pal. The plain truth is that there are folks who think the church lacks leadership and authority, these folks come along in every generation. With the RCC they succeeded in usurping the leadership. The immediate predecessors of the NAR was the "Shepherding movement"

The Holy Spirit is the leader of the church of which Christ is the Head.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
9,164
1,794
113
#45
You got it ole pal. The plain truth is that there are folks who think the church lacks leadership and authority, these folks come along in every generation. With the RCC they succeeded in usurping the leadership. The immediate predecessors of the NAR was the "Shepherding movement"

The Holy Spirit is the leader of the church of which Christ is the Head.
I'm thinking there might have been a ten-year or 15 year gap between the two, but the heavy shepherding stuff was probably around even when it fell out of favor and people were getting out of it. The language and some of the ideas are still in those organizations. I would imagine the NAR structure would probably less stressful on individuals at the grass roots, but reading into scripture or just assuming that authority structure is key or is what a passage must mean might be a common thing.
 

Evmur

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2021
5,219
2,618
113
London
christianchat.com
#46
I'm thinking there might have been a ten-year or 15 year gap between the two, but the heavy shepherding stuff was probably around even when it fell out of favor and people were getting out of it. The language and some of the ideas are still in those organizations. I would imagine the NAR structure would probably less stressful on individuals at the grass roots, but reading into scripture or just assuming that authority structure is key or is what a passage must mean might be a common thing.
good spot, Shepherding was grassroots up, this NAR is an attempt at top down. For sure those who expound it consider themselves as the apostles and prophets ... although their prophecies do not seem to come to pass ....
 

Evmur

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2021
5,219
2,618
113
London
christianchat.com
#47
According to one source, here are the errors of the NAR:
1. Denies The Sufficiency Of God’s Word
2. Adds New Prophets And Apostles
3. Robs Jesus Of His Future Glory
4. Contradicts The Biblical Assessment Of The Last Days
5. Misrepresents The Church


You can read the entire analysis here:
https://www.raptureforums.com/bible-study/5-dangerous-errors-of-the-new-apostolic-reformation/

BEWARE OF FALSE PROPHETS, FALSE APOSTLES, AND FALSE TEACHERS.
Their base doctrine is that the church will gain worldwide dominion in these last days which is false.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,491
13,797
113
#48
Why are these people able to deceive so many?
Is it because some seem to always need some kind of supernatural experience in a worship service or in their personal fellowship with God?
Um... every encounter with God, even reading His word, is a supernatural experience. ;)

The problem is that some seek certain kinds of experiences, and some are willing to receive their money to "provide" those experiences.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,491
13,797
113
#49
Anything that is a "reformation" or "restoration"... Sorry, the church can't be "re"-formed or "restored". How can you reform or restore something that was never un-formed or abolished?
If you have ever restored an old tool (or watched a video on the subject), you might realize that your assessment is incorrect. Just as a tool can become rusty, worn, damaged, or seized, the Church can get off track, misled, weak, and ignorant. It hasn't become "unformed" or "abolished" but can nonetheless be restored, reformed, renewed, and revived. Such is the ongoing work of the Holy Spirit, but that doesn't mean any particular movement within the Church is helping to achieve this goal.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,491
13,797
113
#50
According to one source, here are the errors of the NAR:
1. Denies The Sufficiency Of God’s Word
2. Adds New Prophets And Apostles
3. Robs Jesus Of His Future Glory
4. Contradicts The Biblical Assessment Of The Last Days
5. Misrepresents The Church


You can read the entire analysis here:
https://www.raptureforums.com/bible-study/5-dangerous-errors-of-the-new-apostolic-reformation/
I'm no fan of NAR errors, but the article you cited is just poorly-written misinformation, fundamentally no different than mainstream media reports on the effectiveness of C-19 vaccines.

Without actual citations, the claims of the article are empty. There is no evidence (aside from one quote in section 4) that any person associated with the movement makes the claims the article mentions.

Section 3 ("Robs Jesus...") is unmitigated hogwash, presenting the worst possible interpretation of certain views.

Section 4 ("Contradicts...") is based on one particular view of the last days that is NOT accepted by all Christians, so claiming it is THE biblical assessment is misleading at best.

Section 5 is just clickbait headlining. There is nothing in the body of the article to support the section title.

Clearly, this was written by a wannabe journalist without the integrity to present fair and balanced information or to check out the rumours before publishing them. It's not worth reading, and is at least as misleading as anything the NAR is alleged to teach.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,777
113
#51
I'm no fan of NAR errors, but the article you cited is just poorly-written misinformation, fundamentally no different than mainstream media reports on the effectiveness of C-19 vaccines.
That might well be the case, but there is no denying that they are false apostles and false teachers:
New Apostolic Reformation (NAR)
The New Apostolic Reformation (NAR) is a dominionist movement which asserts that God is restoring the lost offices of church governance, namely the offices of Prophet and Apostle.

Leading figures in this seemingly loosely organized movement claim that these prophets and apostles alone have the power and authority to execute God’s plans and purposes on earth. They believe they are laying the foundation for a global church, governed by them.

They place a greater emphasis on dreams, visions and extra-biblical revelation than they do on the Bible, claiming that their revealed teachings and reported experiences (e.g. trips to heaven, face-to-face conversations with Jesus, visits by angels) can not be proven by the ‘old’ Scripture.
https://bereanresearch.org/dominionism-nar/
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,491
13,797
113
#52
That might well be the case, but there is no denying that they are false apostles and false teachers:

Leading figures in this seemingly loosely organized movement claim that these prophets and apostles alone have the power and authority to execute God’s plans and purposes on earth. They believe they are laying the foundation for a global church, governed by them.

Agreed; this is a false teaching.

They place a greater emphasis on dreams, visions and extra-biblical revelation than they do on the Bible, claiming that their revealed teachings and reported experiences (e.g. trips to heaven, face-to-face conversations with Jesus, visits by angels) can not be proven by the ‘old’ Scripture.
https://bereanresearch.org/dominionism-nar/
While I know that God speaks outside of Scripture, I also know that any such communication will be consistent with Scripture. As someone else mentioned earlier in this thread, God isn't "adding to Scripture" these days, so any "revelation" would be for, at most, a single congregation or organization, but not for the entire Church.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
9,164
1,794
113
#53
According to one source, here are the errors of the NAR:
1. Denies The Sufficiency Of God’s Word
2. Adds New Prophets And Apostles
3. Robs Jesus Of His Future Glory
4. Contradicts The Biblical Assessment Of The Last Days
5. Misrepresents The Church


You can read the entire analysis here:
https://www.raptureforums.com/bible-study/5-dangerous-errors-of-the-new-apostolic-reformation/

BEWARE OF FALSE PROPHETS, FALSE APOSTLES, AND FALSE TEACHERS.
Usually, when I hear 'sufficiency of scripture' and find out what is intended, the one using the term means somehow the operation of the gifts the scriptures teach the Spirit distributes among the saints--or some of them-- is at odds with the role of scripture, justified with some very strained eisegesis of II Timothy 3 does not make sense in context.

'Sufficient' or similar words shows up in some of the Protestant confessions, and at least some of it refers to the scriptures being sufficient ___for salvation___ .
 
S

SophieT

Guest
#54
Here’s their idea of respecting the Holy Spirit:

I remember that one entering the discussion way back

the genie in the bottle...the idea of using the Holy Spirit seems to be a theme
 
S

SophieT

Guest
#55
Here is an article by Bible scholar and radio host Michael Brown :https://askdrbrown.org/library/dispelling-myths-about-nar-new-apostolic-reformation that deals with how strangely and widely the 'NAR" label is used. People that are from older movements who did not join with some of Wagner's efforts or join his organizations get labeled 'NAR'.

Peter Wagner did a lot of things, be a missionary, lecture at Fuller Theological Seminary and write books on church growth, write books on church movements, write up and come up with practices that are labelled 'spiritual warfare'. Then he wrote a book about churches that are led by (what he considered or who called themselves) apostles. Then he started an actual organization after people were wanting him to lead a movement. I believe he had a book called 'New Apostolic Reformation.' So he had lists of people he thought were apostles all over the world, people joining his organization.

Wagner coined the terms 'third wave' and the term 'new apostolic reformation.' But 'Third Wave' is something like evangelicals that are like Charismatics, but might be less likely to believe in the 'initial evidence doctrine' but believe in spiritual gifts. And they weren't part of the Charismatic movement and may not have called themselves 'Charismatic.' He used 'third wave' because Pentecostal and Charismatic were his first two waves. This term was coined before "NAR" and it is not about the NAR. I think the term is from the 1980's and I do not really hear it today much. I don't know of anyone who thinks of himself or his church as 'third wave' unless he reads this niche stuff. I think Wagner would have put the '80's Vineyard in the Third Wave. Some of the other churches that were third wave might have affiliated with Wagner's NAR thing, but Third Wave does not mean NAR.

"Latter Rain" was a movement in the 1940s that emphasized prophesying and the Ephesians 4 ministries. Some of the congregations may have come from the Assemblies of God or maybe the affiliated Pentecostal Assemblies of Canada, but Latter Rain movement churches were independent. Some of those churches were still around the last I heard. That is not the NAR movement. It' solder.. NAR beliefs about Ephesians 4:11 might be similar and were probably influenced by it. I am not sure where 'five-fold ministry' as a description of ministries in Ephesians 4:11 comes from, but they used that term. There was the term 'four-fold ministry' in the Catholic Apostolic Church movement in the 1800s--presumably about the same thing since pastors and teachers are one group. Ephesians 4:11 is in the Bible.

Manifest Sons of God-- I think that was from the 1950s or 1960s-- Latter Rain eschatology with a kind of dominionist eschatology that thought there would be a 'manchild' company, their interpretation of the books of Revelation. I'm not totally clear on this, but Romans 8 mentions the manifestation of the sons of God. Maybe they thought some people would have resurrected like powers before the end or something like that. I read a bit about it, but details are fuzzy in my mind. They may have had some beliefs in common that NAR drew on decades later, but equating it with NAR doesn't make sense. Wagner had his own organizational affiliations and groups that interacted with him.

I think 'Joel's Army' is a concept about an army of believers in the last days. It relies on some very allegorical readings about a passage more literally about a foreign invading army. I'm thinking it was Assyria in Joel. Equating that with NAR? Based on the other ones so far, I'm skeptical.

Ephesians 4:11 ministries are in the Bible. I believe we should look to the Bible to understand how God works in the church rather than just relying on tradition. I find typical NAR ideas about what apostles are to be kind of fuzzy and loosely related to the overall picture in the Bible. Jesus sent out apostles, and their being apostles is associated with their being sent out with a commission to preach, heal, cast out devils and raise the dead. Paul and Barnabas' commission is in Acts 13, after which they were called 'apostles.' But Paul and Barnabas were preaching in unreached areas, not taking over existing structures or adding an extra layer of leadership to them so they could be their 'fathers'.

The NAR movement ideas has influenced a lot of churches in different ways. But Wagners group or Wagner had dominionist eschatology that seemed post-mil.

I would agree that some of the movements or at least some churches seem to make light use of scripture. I was raised Pentecostal and believe in spiritual gifts, but the churches I went to growing up made heavy use of scripture and studied it and taught out of it. So the times I've been around Charismatic people or around the signs and wonders movement churches and they have a looser use of scripture, I've found it troublesome.
I'm familiar with Michael Brown and I'll quote this from the article you source:

In short, what the critics have basically done is take whatever trends they differ with in the worldwide Pentecostal-Charismatic movement, group them all together, and put them under the heading of NAR – even though this is not what NAR has ever meant

and I'll add the following to that one:


Second, drop the general term NAR. It’s ambiguous at best and misleading at worst and should only be used with reference to the organization once led by Peter Wagner.

Third, don’t put widely disparate groups under the same heading. That only leads to confusion.
(which I agree with and it only makes sense to those who would not call themselves a heresy hunter)

in fact, (my words now) one of the hallmarks of NAR, is the very disparity itself. loosely configured but agreeing and congratulating each other in the middle. to better understand this movement, it must be looked at on a broader and bigger scale. the very fact that the leaders (and there is a core group) consider themselves pretty much unable to ere, does nothing to quell any concerns a person might have, that this movement has overstepped both common sense and any warnings in scripture speaking to the way they handle themselves

I would expect that by now they have swept up much of their mess with Todd Bentley who was their supreme example of all things new 'that God is doing' and the fact of how they all got together and anointed him while he was in the middle of an adulterous affair and the question would be 'where are all your prophets who cannot discern that this man is without honor and is a fool and you are worse than fools for throwing yourselves at his feet.

IMO, this has no bearing on how a person was raised. this, has more to do with deception and believing that God has somehow called you to be 'special'
 

Evmur

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2021
5,219
2,618
113
London
christianchat.com
#56
Why are these people able to deceive so many?
Is it because some seem to always need some kind of supernatural experience in a worship service or in their personal fellowship with God?
The REAL danger with all such movements is that they DO have the gospel of salvation, folks ARE saved through their various ministries and of course if folks are saved through those ministries they are going to feel some loyalty toward them. What becomes sadly apparent with all such movements is as they get further and further away from the truth and become [inevitably] more and more extreme. The Holy Spirit leaves them bye and bye.

That is to say His immediate and manifest presence, the unction.

And false doctrines have the habit of breeding.
 

SomeDisciple

Well-known member
Jul 4, 2021
2,271
1,050
113
#57
If you have ever restored an old tool (or watched a video on the subject), you might realize that your assessment is incorrect.
I definitely agree that individuals in the church or individual assemblies can be restored. I should say my assessment is mostly toward the condition of the church as a whole- mostly with respect to "Restoration to/of Apostolic Christianity".

If Apostolic Christianity (by this I mean, church with Apostles and prophets et al.) has ceased, then it is by the ordinance of God, and we should not try to "restore" the things that were ceased by God. If the Church has entered a "Post-Apostolic" time where that which is perfect has come, and that which is in part has been done away- then we should be happy with our assembly, our bible doctrine, and the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

If Apostolic Christianity never did cease (and Jesus continues to make apostles after the manner of Paul, and prophets continue to prophecy), then surely it never, as a whole, went away that it should be "restored" at a later time; or went apostate that it should be "reformed" later on. I would see continuation as necessary over reformation/restoration... and surely many (but not all) "Apostolic Churches" would tell you they do too, and totally deny being a "new" or a "reformation".
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,491
13,797
113
#58
I definitely agree that individuals in the church or individual assemblies can be restored. I should say my assessment is mostly toward the condition of the church as a whole- mostly with respect to "Restoration to/of Apostolic Christianity".

If Apostolic Christianity (by this I mean, church with Apostles and prophets et al.) has ceased, then it is by the ordinance of God, and we should not try to "restore" the things that were ceased by God. If the Church has entered a "Post-Apostolic" time where that which is perfect has come, and that which is in part has been done away- then we should be happy with our assembly, our bible doctrine, and the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

If Apostolic Christianity never did cease (and Jesus continues to make apostles after the manner of Paul, and prophets continue to prophecy), then surely it never, as a whole, went away that it should be "restored" at a later time; or went apostate that it should be "reformed" later on. I would see continuation as necessary over reformation/restoration... and surely many (but not all) "Apostolic Churches" would tell you they do too, and totally deny being a "new" or a "reformation".
I understand what you're saying. Generally I agree with you, though I disagree that we are in the age of "that which is perfect has come". I think the amount of discord on this site is clear evidence that we aren't there yet. ;)
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
8,319
3,619
113
#59
DISCLAIMER: I'm posting a video. Those who wish to watch may do so. For all the rest, don't watch; no worries, I don't care either way.

This is a great video on the NAR. Something that really jumped out at me is something Russ Moyer says. Moyer is the "Presiding Prophet" of the International Coalition of Apostolic Leaders. The part I'm talking about starts at 35:25. He says:

". . .apostles and prophets walking together, re-laying the foundation of Ephesians 2:18-20."​

I don't know, it seems to me this should be a red alert to any Bible-believing Christian. Here's what Ephesians 2:18-20 says: "For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father. Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone,"

I don't know what part of "having been built" Moyer doesn't understand, or where he thinks he got the mandate to "re-lay" the foundation that's already been laid. The Greek ἐποικοδομηθέντες (epoikodomēthentes) is aorist participle, meaning an action that took place in the past. If it was an action that took place in the past but continuously over a long period, the Imperfect tense would have been used.

These people don't conform themselves to God's word; they make it up as they go along, and I don't know how it could be any clearer.

 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
9,164
1,794
113
#60
This is a great video on the NAR. Something that really jumped out at me is something Russ Moyer says. Moyer is the "Presiding Prophet" of the International Coalition of Apostolic Leaders. The part I'm talking about starts at 35:25. He says:

". . .apostles and prophets walking together, re-laying the foundation of Ephesians 2:18-20."​

I don't know, it seems to me this should be a red alert to any Bible-believing Christian. Here's what Ephesians 2:18-20 says: "For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father. Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone,"

I don't know what part of "having been built" Moyer doesn't understand, or where he thinks he got the mandate to "re-lay" the foundation that's already been laid. The Greek ἐποικοδομηθέντες (epoikodomēthentes) is aorist participle, meaning an action that took place in the past. If it was an action that took place in the past but continuously over a long period, the Imperfect tense would have been used.
If the author is referring to past apostles and prophets, referring to the past does not mean that he is making commentary about the present or the future. The ministry of apostles and prophets was an ongoing thing when he wrote this. There were also historical prophets and some commentators think this might refer to the Biblical prophets, others his contemporaries. But saying the church has been built on apostles and prophets is not a commentary on whether God would continue to place these roles in the church. Reading such an idea into the text there is eisegesis.

Consider this passage
Ephesians 4
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

The gifts were given at the ascension, but people started operating them, in some cases, later. It took some time before Philip the evangelist went down to Samaria to preach. Paul's conversion and sending as an apostle was not instant at the ascension of Christ. Most Christians would acknowledge some ministry in the list. For example, most Christians--- or leaders from their churches--- would acknowledge that there are still pastors and teachers. Many Christians acknowledge the role of evangelists.

Individual Christians are not allowed to create a doctrine that these gifts of Christ will not manifest in the church. It is not up to us to declare what Christ does or does not decide. We can hope, through discernment, wisdom, and through the Holy Spirit to perceive what the Spirit is doing. The apostles and elders in Jerusalem were able to agree on what 'seemed good to the Holy Spirit.'

The prophets and teachers in Antioch were able to perceive the Spirit speaking to them to separate Barnabas and Saul to the work to which he had called them in Acts 13. They went forth, being sent by the Spirit. After this, Acts calls both Barnabas and Saul "apostles" for the very first time. Compare this to Christ sending forth the twelve apostles. Their being named 'apostles' comes before their being sent on a journey in which they were to heal, cleanse lepers, and raise the dead and preach in one Gospel, and another Gospel calls them 'apostles' for the first time after they returned.

Acts 14:4 and 4:14 call Barnabas and Saul (a.k.a. Paul) 'apostles'). Paul mentions Barnabas again in I Corinthians 9 in the discussion of his own right as an apostle to live of the Gospel, which makes sense in the light of Barnabas being an apostle also. I Thessalonians 1:1 shows the epistle is written by Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy. In 2:6-7 we see them using the term 'apostles of Christ' to describe themselves. Paul seems to include Apollos also in his discussion of 'we apostles' in I Corinthians 3.

Saying that God will not send an apostle today is tantamount to saying how God will run His church. When He has not revealed something, we should not decree what He will and will not do. But through God's grace, the saints can be enabled to discern the working and will of the Spirit.

Historically, there have been many individuals the Christian community has recognized as apostles, at least looking back on them in history. The term is used of men who did missions work, especially if they were influential in introducing the Gospel to a people-group or converting many of them. As Roman Catholicism does today, there was a bit of a trend to associate apostolic authority with bishops or with roles up the RCC hierarchy. and some of the men labeled 'apostles' were ordained as bishops.

Examples of men historically called apostles include Patrick of Ireland. There are also writings about the 'twelve apostles of Ireland' but I think it was unlikely that all were bishops. Columba had that title, and he was known for reaching the Picts in Scotland. There is Oscar/Angsar 'apostle of the north.' Cyril and Methodius were two brothers who are known as the 'Apostles to the Slavs' and Bulgars-- actually to a long list of groups.

In Protestantism, John Elliot is known as 'Apostle to the Indians' in colonial America. I saw a Congregational hymn about workers, probably missionaries, that says, "Make them apostles..." The concept does exist in Protestant tradition. I also recollect that one of Calvin's commentaries also leaves it open for God to send apostles and prophets to the church, and he may have believed there were some in his own time.

I take issue with some of the NAR views of apostleship-- the idea that it is a hierarchical role that is supposed to be set above local church eldership. Paul's and his co-workers measure of rule extended to the areas where they had brought the Gospel of Christ. Paul accepted James and the elder's advice when he went to Jerusalem. There is no hint that he tried to pull 'apostolic rank' over the elders. I once emailed Peter Wagner an article on this topic, but he responded asking not to receive any further emails of this kind. I did not know him, so that was also understandable.