The 144k Jews In Heaven during the Great Tribulation.

[kleronomos]

You are creating that.
I never said the 144k are a pretrib rapture.
I have said they are vividly portrayed in heaven in rev 14
About mid trib.

i am not anti pretrib as are some that are hamstrung by that starting place.
Eschatology, would be way better approached by an open mind, not jettisoning research by your opponent.
You are automatically placing yourself in a hamstrung dynamic.

I put forth SCRIPTURE, and that SCRIPTURE DOES NOT 'VIVIDLY portrayed IN HEAVEN' at all.

That is why I put it forth in GODS WORDS and WHY I used so much scripture above and below so you do not accuse me of TRYING TO DECEIVE by omission.


Revelation 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed

16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders:


and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

 

[Absolutely]

I put forth SCRIPTURE, and that SCRIPTURE DOES NOT 'VIVIDLY portrayed IN HEAVEN' at all.

That is why I put it forth in GODS WORDS and WHY I used so much scripture above and below so you do not accuse me of TRYING TO DECEIVE by omission.


Revelation 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed

16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders:


and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

Lol
Your verses say they are in heaven.
Reread it.

 

[Absolutely]

Furthermore, 1Thes 5:1-11 makes no sense whatsoever unless couched in a pre-trib dynamic.

Correct
Postribbers would of course not heed any watching or being ready verses.
They settled it in their minds, it would be a waste of time and energy.
Jesus aint coming at all till after the ac rules 7 years

So they know the time and day of the rapture.

Way, way into the future..years and years away.

 

[kleronomos]

Lol
Your verses say they are in heaven.
Reread it.

Only to those who need to support a doctrine of man.

 

[Absolutely]

And nothing in the scriptures you quoted in the OP hints at rapture. I am trying to show you that the bit in Rev. 14 about the 144K is not a rapture verse. Take it or leave it.

God bless

Did you read my post?
We AGREE the 144k is not the rapture of 1 thes 4.

 

[Absolutely]

Only to those who need to support a doctrine of man.

I guess if you omit the firstfruit thingy, you can just kinda blow them off.

They never got to heaven?

Believe it if you like.

I will go by what i have read and shown you.

Your denial also omits PURPOSE.
IOW, it leaves you open to ascribe what you want ,to them being firstfruits.

Wasn't it you that got all unnerved at the thought of harvest and firstfruits being connected?
Maybe not.
But i guess you can omit the firstfruits dynamic as well as the verses showing them in heaven.

IOW, LEAVE OUT PURPOSE.

 

[Absolutely]

I would like to pose a question to postribbers ,or anyone that thinks verses in Revelation 14 can not possibly refer to the 144k in heaven, even though that's what it says.

So the question is ;
when the 144k are named and chosen as first fruits what is meant by that?
What does that mean?
What are they the first fruits of?
And how do some people put a separation between first fruits and harvest when there cannot be any possibility of a separation?

 

[Absolutely]

Now remember there is no reason to deny those verses on rev 14 that place the 144k in heaven.
I simply read it with interest and long to see where that leads in Gods word.

But those with preconceived doctrine, received from their teachers, Must reframe it.

They literally have to.

It destroys the very pillars of their doctrine.

 

[Absolutely]

Only to those who need to support a doctrine of man.

What are they firstfruits of?
Why are they called firstfruits?

 

[Absolutely]

Only to those who need to support a doctrine of man.

You still oblivious that you posted verses showing them in heaven???

 

[kleronomos]

Correct
Postribbers would of course not heed any watching or being ready verses.
They settled it in their minds, it would be a waste of time and energy.
Jesus aint coming at all till after the ac rules 7 years

So they know the time and day of the rapture.

Way, way into the future..years and years away.

WAITING AND WATCHING FOR THE LORD HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BEING IN THE FINAL GENERATION, though you sure do seem to put it forth ALOT.

You seem to think that the entire bible was written for the last generation.

EVERYONE from the past 2000 years HAS BEEN WAITING AND WATCHING for the Lord KNOWING DEATH could come at any minute. It isn't WRITTEN FOR OR EVEN ABOUT 'A PRE TRIB rapture' as you seem to suggest.


IS 'the pre trib doctrine' NOW trying to steal that fact? and make it about them? Say it isn't so. Please don't try and make it about 'the FINAL GENERATION church' and only the final generation church


We have been WATCHING AND WAITING ON GOD SINCE WAY BEFORE THE 'FINAL GENERATION CHURCH' even KNOWN. Do you know when this was written?

Hosea 12:5 Even the LORD God of hosts; the LORD is his memorial.

6 Therefore turn thou to thy God: keep mercy and judgment and wait on thy God continually.

7 He is a merchant, the balances of deceit are in his hand: he loveth to oppress.

8 And Ephraim said, Yet I am become rich, I have found me out substance: in all my labours they shall find none iniquity in me that were sin.

9 And I that am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt will yet make thee to dwell in tabernacles, as in the days of the solemn feast.

10 I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets.

11 Is there iniquity in Gilead? surely they are vanity: they sacrifice bullocks in Gilgal; yea, their altars are as heaps in the furrows of the fields.

12 And Jacob fled into the country of Syria, and Israel served for a wife, and for a wife he kept sheep.

13 And by a prophet the LORD brought Israel out of Egypt, and by a prophet was he preserved.

14 Ephraim provoked him to anger most bitterly: therefore shall he leave his blood upon him, and his reproach shall his LORD return unto him.
.

 

[Unw0rthyS3rvant]

Not my Job.
My job is simply to report what is in the word.
You can reframe it, challenge it, or just state your opposing or confirming views.

Hmmm,cop out.
What is your job?
Is it not the sames as every follower.
To share the word w/ o private interpretation?
see Peter

To rescue and support your brethren in love?
Forgive and it will be forgiven?

Reporting the word should be done per the word!

Do you not know the doctrine of the word is for reproof,correction,instruction.............?

 

[Snacks]

Those of your caliber and attitude got that thread locked.
It is a bible study on the 144k.

way over your head as you have demonstrated.

“Those of your caliber”
Who does that entail?

 

[Absolutely]

WAITING AND WATCHING FOR THE LORD HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BEING IN THE FINAL GENERATION, though you sure do seem to put it forth ALOT.

You seem to think that the entire bible was written for the last generation.

EVERYONE from the past 2000 years HAS BEEN WAITING AND WATCHING for the Lord KNOWING DEATH could come at any minute. It isn't WRITTEN FOR OR EVEN ABOUT 'A PRE TRIB rapture' as you seem to suggest.


IS 'the pre trib doctrine' NOW trying to steal that fact? and make it about them? Say it isn't so. Please don't try and make it about 'the FINAL GENERATION church' and only the final generation church


We have been WATCHING AND WAITING ON GOD SINCE WAY BEFORE THE 'FINAL GENERATION CHURCH' even KNOWN. Do you know when this was written?

Hosea 12:5 Even the LORD God of hosts; the LORD is his memorial.

6 Therefore turn thou to thy God: keep mercy and judgment and wait on thy God continually.

7 He is a merchant, the balances of deceit are in his hand: he loveth to oppress.

8 And Ephraim said, Yet I am become rich, I have found me out substance: in all my labours they shall find none iniquity in me that were sin.

9 And I that am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt will yet make thee to dwell in tabernacles, as in the days of the solemn feast.

10 I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets.

11 Is there iniquity in Gilead? surely they are vanity: they sacrifice bullocks in Gilgal; yea, their altars are as heaps in the furrows of the fields.

12 And Jacob fled into the country of Syria, and Israel served for a wife, and for a wife he kept sheep.

13 And by a prophet the LORD brought Israel out of Egypt, and by a prophet was he preserved.

14 Ephraim provoked him to anger most bitterly: therefore shall he leave his blood upon him, and his reproach shall his LORD return unto him.
.

that "being ready" dynamic means he could come at any time.

Postribbers believe none of it...
Actually lulled into not being ready....i mean , what for?
According to them ...he ain't coming...for years and years.

 

[Absolutely]

“Those of your caliber”
Who does that entail?

i was cussed out in that thread.
That newbie survived being banned, it but the thread was locked.

The reference you make is concerning a snarky drive by and my pushback.

 

[Absolutely]

Hmmm,cop out.
What is your job?
Is it not the sames as every follower.
To share the word w/ o private interpretation?
see Peter

To rescue and support your brethren in love?
Forgive and it will be forgiven?

Reporting the word should be done per the word!

Do you not know the doctrine of the word is for reproof,correction,instruction.............?

Then what is everybody in here doing if not what you claim is off limits.
You saying nobody can interpret the word???

Everyone in here including you,is doing the same exact thing.
Giving our 2 cents.

It is a forum.

But i have invited opposing views

That is what makes the debate lively.
I do not agree with all pretribbers. But we still respect each other.

I challenge unbiblical dynamics.
All my posts are open to challenge.
Nobody has it 100%.
We all have a piece


That is how it is.

 

[Snacks]

i was cussed out in that thread.
That newbie survived being banned, it but the thread was locked.

The reference you make is concerning a snarky drive by and my pushback.

I have no enemies here and may, from time to time, ask questions. A lot of threads and discussions here are beyond my desire to delve into but I appreciate your response.

 

[Unw0rthyS3rvant]

Lol, lift yourself up high much?
Your push back as you say is in error but you don't have ears to hear.

I do not believe in pre,my leanings are mid and possibly post. We will be spared GODS WRATH,but it does NOT say the ac 's persecution.
God is able to hide or deliver just as he did Noah,with the Ark,and Lot,
with the Angels.

What causes you to think all followers are NOT WAITING, WATCHING AND READY? Talk about judging! That's a sloppy statement to make.

 

[Absolutely]

WAITING AND WATCHING FOR THE LORD HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BEING IN THE FINAL GENERATION, though you sure do seem to put it forth ALOT.

You seem to think that the entire bible was written for the last generation.

EVERYONE from the past 2000 years HAS BEEN WAITING AND WATCHING for the Lord KNOWING DEATH could come at any minute. It isn't WRITTEN FOR OR EVEN ABOUT 'A PRE TRIB rapture' as you seem to suggest.


IS 'the pre trib doctrine' NOW trying to steal that fact? and make it about them? Say it isn't so. Please don't try and make it about 'the FINAL GENERATION church' and only the final generation church


We have been WATCHING AND WAITING ON GOD SINCE WAY BEFORE THE 'FINAL GENERATION CHURCH' even KNOWN. Do you know when this was written?

Hosea 12:5 Even the LORD God of hosts; the LORD is his memorial.

6 Therefore turn thou to thy God: keep mercy and judgment and wait on thy God continually.

7 He is a merchant, the balances of deceit are in his hand: he loveth to oppress.

8 And Ephraim said, Yet I am become rich, I have found me out substance: in all my labours they shall find none iniquity in me that were sin.

9 And I that am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt will yet make thee to dwell in tabernacles, as in the days of the solemn feast.

10 I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets.

11 Is there iniquity in Gilead? surely they are vanity: they sacrifice bullocks in Gilgal; yea, their altars are as heaps in the furrows of the fields.

12 And Jacob fled into the country of Syria, and Israel served for a wife, and for a wife he kept sheep.

13 And by a prophet the LORD brought Israel out of Egypt, and by a prophet was he preserved.

14 Ephraim provoked him to anger most bitterly: therefore shall he leave his blood upon him, and his reproach shall his LORD return unto him.
.

"""WAITING AND WATCHING FOR THE LORD HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BEING IN THE FINAL GENERATION, though you sure do seem to put it forth ALOT."""

One thing you will rarely see, even in the Walk of the True Believer , is the bride calling to the groom. That component is is blatantly missing in the postribber circles.
I have watched hours of postribber videos, and studied their Doctrine.
In that time I have never seen one of them introduce the component the bride and the bridegroom.
This is huge, because the Rapture of the church is the Gathering of the Bride.
I think you postribbers need to stop and smell the roses.
Ask yourself why the main component of end times, the very Peak or Apex of all of Heaven, and what heaven is obsessed with.

And that is, the son coming for his bride.

I would say that any study in end times eschatology would just naturally end up at that dynamic (the bride calling out for the groom).
I don't know if you guys realize it but the Bible ends in that dynamic, and it is The Parting words of Heaven, the thought that heaven wants to leave with his bride, and with his people , is in the last sentences of the Bible. Which says, "the spirit and the bride say come ,he that is willing says come, even so come Lord Jesus Maranatha come Lord Jesus".
How in the world, is that left out of an entire group of people, studying on that person, that wrote those words?

Postribbers ,rarely ,if ever, place that on the table.

Time to wake up.
The groom is coming for the bride.

not the church....the bride

 

[Absolutely]

I have no enemies here and may, from time to time, ask questions. A lot of threads and discussions here are beyond my desire to delve into but I appreciate your response.

likewise!!!
Have a blessed evening!!!!!