My veiw on evil.

[Roughsoul1991]

Why evil?

There is much suffering in the scriptures and there are those who was made into great nations. Somewhere in the balance of God's will, His all knowing, all seeing, being outside of time, (justice) in dealing with sin, and His sovereignty. We see historically and philosophically the results of mankind's free will to choose good or evil but yet in these choices God is still in control as He has predetermined the path through the choice of humanity to bring about everything within His will.

As Christians we are promised suffering.

Philippians 1:29
New International Version
29 For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe in him, but also to suffer for him,

Just as darkness clashes with the light on this Earth, so will be the battle between good and evil. The forces behind the evil knows they are defeated but it is their very nature to pursue evil even unto their demise.

Even our Lord and Savior was considered homeless, understood hunger, thirst, pain, sorrow, temptation, and death. But yet evil could not overcome.

For the saved in the scriptures they looked forward to the day of death as they understood it was simply a change in location from life on Earth to life eternal with the Heavenly Father.

Why evil? I'm sure many have asked this lately. Evil exists because God is patient within the will of man. He is patient for the unbelievers because life on Earth is ALL the time they have to accept salvation.

2 Peter 3:9 ESV
The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

But of course, it is not outside of God's character to intervene when evil becomes so ripe for judgement, God decides to reap what was sown. The patience for humanity has lasted 10000 to 6000 years. The patience for nations has lasted from weeks to centuries as kings, presidents, dictators all eventually met destruction. The patience for the individual can last a lifetime or end tomorrow for the unbeliever.

Ultimately, the patience for humanity will end as prophetically the end of times will judge as evil will become like the days of Noah and instead of a flood it will be by a series of judgements (Revelation).

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

We see historically and philosophically the results of mankind's free will to choose good or evil but yet in these choices God is still in control as He has predetermined the path through the choice of humanity to bring about everything within His will.

I won't be offended if you don't want to engage in my question (or perhaps statement). I'm currently dealing with someone who says that I'm in the wrong for not responding to every piece of information presented in a person's post . . . therefore, he's "praying for me." So again, if I am wrong for clipping this one piece, by all means, disregard what I'm about to write.

So my question is this: How can God be in control if human free will is all about being in control? How can I be in control if God is in control of all things? And, how can God be in control of all things if I am in control of myself . . . my life and my choices?

Paul teaches us that God is fair and just, so there must be a sense of reason and ration in any kind of explanation.

Thank you, RS.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

I won't be offended if you don't want to engage in my question (or perhaps statement). I'm currently dealing with someone who says that I'm in the wrong for not responding to every piece of information presented in a person's post . . . therefore, he's "praying for me." So again, if I am wrong for clipping this one piece, by all means, disregard what I'm about to write.

So my question is this: How can God be in control if human free will is all about being in control? How can I be in control if God is in control of all things? And, how can God be in control of all things if I am in control of myself . . . my life and my choices?

Paul teaches us that God is fair and just, so there must be a sense of reason and ration in any kind of explanation.

Thank you, RS.

There are a few ways to prove this.

1st argument is the laws of logic. We as Christians understand these laws are evident because we are created in God's image and God can only be logical. It His very nature.

The law of noncontradiction basically states it is evident that A cannot be B. A is either A or not. All through out the Bible God commands mankind to stop rebelling, turn back, repent, and choose to follow God. For example,

2 Timothy 2:12 ESV
If we endure, we will also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us;

Two options saying if we endure or if we deny. Being logical we see that God requires us to choose.

Argument number 2:

The law of Morality is made evident by God due to the fact we see evil in the world but the only way we know of evil is to have a thought of something to compare it to. We know what is evil by knowing what is good.

God is all Holy. So did God create Satan as a immoral being? No. It would go against His attributes. The only explanation is free will.

When God tells us not to sin, is that a choice to obey His commands? We actually know of this inner battle between flesh and sin. Would it be a battle if God was in full control of your will?

Could we justly be held accountable to sin if we didn't have a choice?

About God's sovereignty:

We obviously will never understand as finite limited ignorant human beings the eternal all knowing and powerful God.

But we do understand that God predestined the events of the world working within mankind's free will and the duel between good and evil to bring about His plan for salvation.

God also knows who will hear His voice and who will not. God knows your life from beginning to end. God knows who He will work in or who he will use as judgement for example, a pagan nation conquering the Israelites into exile.

We also see the election as God knowing before time, seeing the end of time who chose to love Him.

Our God is so powerful to allow free will and still have His will come to pass.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

There are a few ways to prove this.

1st argument is the laws of logic. We as Christians understand these laws are evident because we are created in God's image and God can only be logical. It His very nature.

The law of noncontradiction basically states it is evident that A cannot be B. A is either A or not. All through out the Bible God commands mankind to stop rebelling, turn back, repent, and choose to follow God. For example,

2 Timothy 2:12 ESV
If we endure, we will also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us;

Two options saying if we endure or if we deny. Being logical we see that God requires us to choose.

Argument number 2:

The law of Morality is made evident by God due to the fact we see evil in the world but the only way we know of evil is to have a thought of something to compare it to. We know what is evil by knowing what is good.

God is all Holy. So did God create Satan as a immoral being? No. It would go against His attributes. The only explanation is free will.

When God tells us not to sin, is that a choice to obey His commands? We actually know of this inner battle between flesh and sin. Would it be a battle if God was in full control of your will?

Could we justly be held accountable to sin if we didn't have a choice?

About God's sovereignty:

We obviously will never understand as finite limited ignorant human beings the eternal all knowing and powerful God.

But we do understand that God predestined the events of the world working within mankind's free will and the duel between good and evil to bring about His plan for salvation.

God also knows who will hear His voice and who will not. God knows your life from beginning to end. God knows who He will work in or who he will use as judgement for example, a pagan nation conquering the Israelites into exile.

We also see the election as God knowing before time, seeing the end of time who chose to love Him.

Our God is so powerful to allow free will and still have His will come to pass.

I absolutely love all that you wrote and I agree with it. I mean, how can we deny these things? There is so much Scripture that indicates free will . . . only a fool would deny that they exist. That said, I cannot deny the passages that indicate that all things have been pre-written. Below, I'm sure that I've posted this particular Scripture set at least two-dozen times here. The question is, how do we reconcile this passage set with all that you've written above?

Isaiah 34:14-17 NIV - "Desert creatures will meet with hyenas, and wild goats will bleat to each other; there the night creatures will also lie down and find for themselves places of rest. The owl will nest there and lay eggs, she will hatch them, and care for her young under the shadow of her wings; there also the falcons will gather, each with its mate. Look in the scroll of the LORD and read: None of these will be missing, not one will lack her mate. For it is his mouth that has given the order, and his Spirit will gather them together. He allots their portions; his hand distributes them by measure. They will possess it forever and dwell there from generation to generation."

If this accounting (future events) are foretold in the Scroll of the Lord, and they deal with mere animals, how much more vital do these principles apply to humans? So, to reconcile, one might say that these passages are for the Day of Judgement, and not everyday life. This could be, but does that seem reasonable that the Scroll of the Lord only has a beginning towards the tail end of His Creation Time Line?

As Paul indicates, there truly is an Eternal Plan. I mean, there either is or there is not.

Ephesians 3:11 NLT - "This was his eternal plan, which he carried out through Christ Jesus our Lord."

Wouldn't it be fair to say that the Scroll of the Lord, a pre-written Plan, is why sparrows do not fall to the ground without the consent of the Lord?

Matthew 10:28-31 KJV - "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father. But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows."

I could be wrong, but Jesus, here, is telling us not to fear or worry because all things are under the Almighty, Powerful control of His Father. Even in our deaths, we are protected. Christ holds even our death in His Hand, for He is likely the Right Hand of Salvation as often referenced in the Old Testament. It seems clear that the Scroll of the Lord also applies to each of our lives . . . that we do not die until the Lord has determined that it happen. Therefore, the Scroll of the Lord doesn't seem to rationally fit in with exclusively the "end-time" scenario, but the Eternal Scenario.

These are just fun thoughts of mine . . . things that I'm trying to work through. So again, I hear all that you're saying and I cannot deny them, but I also cannot deny the opposing passages that indicate that the Lord has determined all things. And believe this . . . there are many, many more passages that indicate a pre-written, pre-destined Plan.

So what do you think? How to you reconcile those two passage sets that I've offered above? To date, no one has even attempted to reconcile them (and I'd love to have that conversation).

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Why evil?

There is much suffering in the scriptures and there are those who was made into great nations. Somewhere in the balance of God's will, His all knowing, all seeing, being outside of time, (justice) in dealing with sin, and His sovereignty. We see historically and philosophically the results of mankind's free will to choose good or evil but yet in these choices God is still in control as He has predetermined the path through the choice of humanity to bring about everything within His will.

As Christians we are promised suffering.

Philippians 1:29
New International Version
29 For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe in him, but also to suffer for him,

Just as darkness clashes with the light on this Earth, so will be the battle between good and evil. The forces behind the evil knows they are defeated but it is their very nature to pursue evil even unto their demise.

Even our Lord and Savior was considered homeless, understood hunger, thirst, pain, sorrow, temptation, and death. But yet evil could not overcome.

For the saved in the scriptures they looked forward to the day of death as they understood it was simply a change in location from life on Earth to life eternal with the Heavenly Father.

Why evil? I'm sure many have asked this lately. Evil exists because God is patient within the will of man. He is patient for the unbelievers because life on Earth is ALL the time they have to accept salvation.

2 Peter 3:9 ESV
The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

But of course, it is not outside of God's character to intervene when evil becomes so ripe for judgement, God decides to reap what was sown. The patience for humanity has lasted 10000 to 6000 years. The patience for nations has lasted from weeks to centuries as kings, presidents, dictators all eventually met destruction. The patience for the individual can last a lifetime or end tomorrow for the unbeliever.

Ultimately, the patience for humanity will end as prophetically the end of times will judge as evil will become like the days of Noah and instead of a flood it will be by a series of judgements (Revelation).

amen really interesting read thanks for sharing

“And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭6:5-7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and then later we look forward after that pattern shown us in the ot

“This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭3:1-5‬ ‭

it seems the state of mans heart and mind is the greatest sign of the end when no one else will repent it seems it’s near. History repeats itself

 

[Roughsoul1991]

I absolutely love all that you wrote and I agree with it. I mean, how can we deny these things? There is so much Scripture that indicates free will . . . only a fool would deny that they exist. That said, I cannot deny the passages that indicate that all things have been pre-written. Below, I'm sure that I've posted this particular Scripture set at least two-dozen times here. The question is, how do we reconcile this passage set with all that you've written above?

Isaiah 34:14-17 NIV - "Desert creatures will meet with hyenas, and wild goats will bleat to each other; there the night creatures will also lie down and find for themselves places of rest. The owl will nest there and lay eggs, she will hatch them, and care for her young under the shadow of her wings; there also the falcons will gather, each with its mate. Look in the scroll of the LORD and read: None of these will be missing, not one will lack her mate. For it is his mouth that has given the order, and his Spirit will gather them together. He allots their portions; his hand distributes them by measure. They will possess it forever and dwell there from generation to generation."

If this accounting (future events) are foretold in the Scroll of the Lord, and they deal with mere animals, how much more vital do these principles apply to humans? So, to reconcile, one might say that these passages are for the Day of Judgement, and not everyday life. This could be, but does that seem reasonable that the Scroll of the Lord only has a beginning towards the tail end of His Creation Time Line?

As Paul indicates, there truly is an Eternal Plan. I mean, there either is or there is not.

Ephesians 3:11 NLT - "This was his eternal plan, which he carried out through Christ Jesus our Lord."

Wouldn't it be fair to say that the Scroll of the Lord, a pre-written Plan, is why sparrows do not fall to the ground without the consent of the Lord?

Matthew 10:28-31 KJV - "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father. But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows."

I could be wrong, but Jesus, here, is telling us not to fear or worry because all things are under the Almighty, Powerful control of His Father. Even in our deaths, we are protected. Christ holds even our death in His Hand, for He is likely the Right Hand of Salvation as often referenced in the Old Testament. It seems clear that the Scroll of the Lord also applies to each of our lives . . . that we do not die until the Lord has determined that it happen. Therefore, the Scroll of the Lord doesn't seem to rationally fit in with exclusively the "end-time" scenario, but the Eternal Scenario.

These are just fun thoughts of mine . . . things that I'm trying to work through. So again, I hear all that you're saying and I cannot deny them, but I also cannot deny the opposing passages that indicate that the Lord has determined all things. And believe this . . . there are many, many more passages that indicate a pre-written, pre-destined Plan.

So what do you think? How to you reconcile those two passage sets that I've offered above? To date, no one has even attempted to reconcile them (and I'd love to have that conversation).

Isaiah 34 definitely has future prophetic language in a few verses in the mix of past historical info related to Israel.

Prophecy is direct evidence of God's sovereignty. For example, Jesus knew Judas would betray Him and even said for him who betrays Jesus, it would be better for Judas to have never been born.

This to me shows it was Juda's own will and then eventually Judas's heart was ripe for Satanic influence. Judas may have been in God's will but not because God made him sin.

Now of course, our God is a theistic God and not Deistic. So God moves in the world as well as created it. God can allow natural or evil causes to bring death or God can intervene to prolong life or in judgement He can kill as well. Nothing happens without Him knowing, allowing, or intervening.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Isaiah 34 definitely has future prophetic language in a few verses in the mix of past historical info related to Israel.

Prophecy is direct evidence of God's sovereignty. For example, Jesus knew Judas would betray Him and even said for him who betrays Jesus, it would be better for Judas to have never been born.

This to me shows it was Juda's own will and then eventually Judas's heart was ripe for Satanic influence. Judas may have been in God's will but not because God made him sin.

Now of course, our God is a theistic God and not Deistic. So God moves in the world as well as created it. God can allow natural or evil causes to bring death or God can intervene to prolong life or in judgement He can kill as well. Nothing happens without Him knowing, allowing, or intervening.[/

There are a few ways to prove this.

1st argument is the laws of logic. We as Christians understand these laws are evident because we are created in God's image and God can only be logical. It His very nature.

The law of noncontradiction basically states it is evident that A cannot be B. A is either A or not. All through out the Bible God commands mankind to stop rebelling, turn back, repent, and choose to follow God. For example,

2 Timothy 2:12 ESV
If we endure, we will also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us;

Two options saying if we endure or if we deny. Being logical we see that God requires us to choose.

Argument number 2:

The law of Morality is made evident by God due to the fact we see evil in the world but the only way we know of evil is to have a thought of something to compare it to. We know what is evil by knowing what is good.

God is all Holy. So did God create Satan as a immoral being? No. It would go against His attributes. The only explanation is free will.

When God tells us not to sin, is that a choice to obey His commands? We actually know of this inner battle between flesh and sin. Would it be a battle if God was in full control of your will?

Could we justly be held accountable to sin if we didn't have a choice?

About God's sovereignty:

We obviously will never understand as finite limited ignorant human beings the eternal all knowing and powerful God.

But we do understand that God predestined the events of the world working within mankind's free will and the duel between good and evil to bring about His plan for salvation.

God also knows who will hear His voice and who will not. God knows your life from beginning to end. God knows who He will work in or who he will use as judgement for example, a pagan nation conquering the Israelites into exile.

We also see the election as God knowing before time, seeing the end of time who chose to love Him.

Our God is so powerful to allow free will and still have His will come to pass.

Amen determinate counsel and foreknowledge

“Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:23‬ ‭KJV‬‬

God saw how the world would receive Christ beforehand prophecy is a foretellings of what He already knows will happen

“He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭53:3-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the Gospel is when those things came to pass that he had foretold would happen.
And the epistles are witnessing it afterwards that those thkngs have come now

“For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:

Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭2:21-25‬ ‭KJV‬‬

it’s not that God is forcing anyone to do evil it’s that he’s able to see the end of all things from the beginning of all thkngs and has always been telling us to believe what he’s saying beforehand because he knows what all thkngs will come to he’s trying to save us from the warnings of the devastation to come

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Isaiah 34 definitely has future prophetic language in a few verses in the mix of past historical info related to Israel.

Prophecy is direct evidence of God's sovereignty. For example, Jesus knew Judas would betray Him and even said for him who betrays Jesus, it would be better for Judas to have never been born.

This to me shows it was Juda's own will and then eventually Judas's heart was ripe for Satanic influence. Judas may have been in God's will but not because God made him sin.

Now of course, our God is a theistic God and not Deistic. So God moves in the world as well as created it. God can allow natural or evil causes to bring death or God can intervene to prolong life or in judgement He can kill as well. Nothing happens without Him knowing, allowing, or intervening.

I'm not trying to be rude, but this doesn't seem like a satisfactory resolution to what I've offered. So, here are more verses that support what I was getting at (and there are many, many more):

Isaiah 44:7 CSB - "Who, like me, can announce the future? Let him say so and make a case before me, since I have established an ancient people. Let these gods declare the coming things, and what will take place."

Based upon the Scroll of the Lord, this Scroll determines the future. God doesn't "see" the end of time, rather, He creates events as they are determined to be.

But let's go straight at this idea of free will. Check this out:

Romans 11:7-8 NLT - "So this is the situation: Most of the people of Israel have not found the favor of God they are looking for so earnestly. A few have--the ones God has chosen--but the hearts of the rest were hardened. As the Scriptures say, "God has put them into a deep sleep. To this day he has shut their eyes so they do not see, and closed their ears so they do not hear."

Clearly, the Lord had taken away the ability to choose. Thus, free will is gone. There just isn't any way around this. And if these two verses were enough, Paul tells us that there is a reason; a purpose for God to have done what he did. But first, I should add that Paul is quoting the Old Testament regarding this "deep sleep."

Isa 29:10; Deut 29:4.

So again, there is more. Paul tells of the reason for this sleep, and it is this:

Romans 11:11 NLT - "Did God's people stumble and fall beyond recovery? Of course not! They were disobedient, so God made salvation available to the Gentiles. But he wanted his own people to become jealous and claim it for themselves."

The purpose for God stripping away Israel's ability to choose him was to bring them to a point of jealousy by grafting in the Gentiles. Again, this all points to what I mentioned first, which is that there is a Mysterious, Eternal Plan that was established before the beginning of creation, hence, an "Eternal Plan."

Unless we're going to say that we, the English-speaking world, have mistranscribed original texts, there's no way around the fact that at a bare minimum, "most of Israel had been put into a deep sleep." Again, there is no way around the fact that Israel had been stripped of their free right to choose God . . . except for a few that the Lord had chosen, or, enabled. This is what the Veil of Moses is all about.

2 Corinthians 3:14-18 NLT - "But the people's minds were hardened, and to this day whenever the old covenant is being read, the same veil covers their minds so they cannot understand the truth. And this veil can be removed only by believing in Christ. 15 Yes, even today when they read Moses' writings, their hearts are covered with that veil, and they do not understand. 16 But whenever someone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 For the Lord is the Spirit, and wherever the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 So all of us who have had that veil removed can see and reflect the glory of the Lord. And the Lord--who is the Spirit--makes us more and more like him as we are changed into his glorious image."

As we can see, the Veil must be removed . . . and the only to do that is Christ, hence, the Circumcision of Christ.

I don't know how to make these things more clear than what Scripture provides. I'm not taking things out of context, for the context is clearly established by the writer . . . Paul. Yet, these passages don't seem to mean anything but to only a small handful.

 

[Gardenias]

My take on this.

Evil didn't just pop into being it has always existed right alongside good..
We can see this in heaven when Lucifer decided to rebell against his creator.

Now some will argue that God did not create evil but cannot prove it's beginning.

Jet.26:1-4
V3. If so be they will hearken,and TURN every man from his evil way,that I MAY REPENT OF THE EVIL,which I purpose to do unto unto them because of the evil of their doings.

Is45:5-13
I form the light,and created darkness: I make peace,and CREATE EVIL:
I the Lord do all these things.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

I'm not trying to be rude, but this doesn't seem like a satisfactory resolution to what I've offered. So, here are more verses that support what I was getting at (and there are many, many more):

Isaiah 44:7 CSB - "Who, like me, can announce the future? Let him say so and make a case before me, since I have established an ancient people. Let these gods declare the coming things, and what will take place."

Based upon the Scroll of the Lord, this Scroll determines the future. God doesn't "see" the end of time, rather, He creates events as they are determined to be.

But let's go straight at this idea of free will. Check this out:

Romans 11:7-8 NLT - "So this is the situation: Most of the people of Israel have not found the favor of God they are looking for so earnestly. A few have--the ones God has chosen--but the hearts of the rest were hardened. As the Scriptures say, "God has put them into a deep sleep. To this day he has shut their eyes so they do not see, and closed their ears so they do not hear."

Clearly, the Lord had taken away the ability to choose. Thus, free will is gone. There just isn't any way around this. And if these two verses were enough, Paul tells us that there is a reason; a purpose for God to have done what he did. But first, I should add that Paul is quoting the Old Testament regarding this "deep sleep."

Isa 29:10; Deut 29:4.

So again, there is more. Paul tells of the reason for this sleep, and it is this:

Romans 11:11 NLT - "Did God's people stumble and fall beyond recovery? Of course not! They were disobedient, so God made salvation available to the Gentiles. But he wanted his own people to become jealous and claim it for themselves."

The purpose for God stripping away Israel's ability to choose him was to bring them to a point of jealousy by grafting in the Gentiles. Again, this all points to what I mentioned first, which is that there is a Mysterious, Eternal Plan that was established before the beginning of creation, hence, an "Eternal Plan."

Unless we're going to say that we, the English-speaking world, have mistranscribed original texts, there's no way around the fact that at a bare minimum, "most of Israel had been put into a deep sleep." Again, there is no way around the fact that Israel had been stripped of their free right to choose God . . . except for a few that the Lord had chosen, or, enabled. This is what the Veil of Moses is all about.

2 Corinthians 3:14-18 NLT - "But the people's minds were hardened, and to this day whenever the old covenant is being read, the same veil covers their minds so they cannot understand the truth. And this veil can be removed only by believing in Christ. 15 Yes, even today when they read Moses' writings, their hearts are covered with that veil, and they do not understand. 16 But whenever someone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 For the Lord is the Spirit, and wherever the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 So all of us who have had that veil removed can see and reflect the glory of the Lord. And the Lord--who is the Spirit--makes us more and more like him as we are changed into his glorious image."

As we can see, the Veil must be removed . . . and the only to do that is Christ, hence, the Circumcision of Christ.

I don't know how to make these things more clear than what Scripture provides. I'm not taking things out of context, for the context is clearly established by the writer . . . Paul. Yet, these passages don't seem to mean anything but to only a small handful.

I'm not trying to be rude, but this doesn't seem like a satisfactory resolution to what I've offered. So, here are more verses that support what I was getting at (and there are many, many more):

Isaiah 44:7 CSB - "Who, like me, can announce the future? Let him say so and make a case before me, since I have established an ancient people. Let these gods declare the coming things, and what will take place."

Based upon the Scroll of the Lord, this Scroll determines the future. God doesn't "see" the end of time, rather, He creates events as they are determined to be.

I agree. God's sovereignty doesn't interfere with the evidence of free will.

But let's go straight at this idea of free will. Check this out:

Romans 11:7-8 NLT - "So this is the situation: Most of the people of Israel have not found the favor of God they are looking for so earnestly. A few have--the ones God has chosen--but the hearts of the rest were hardened. As the Scriptures say, "God has put them into a deep sleep. To this day he has shut their eyes so they do not see, and closed their ears so they do not hear."

Yes election is part of scripture as I see God knows the elect from knowing who would choose him being outside of time.

Clearly, the Lord had taken away the ability to choose. Thus, free will is gone.

Nah, like I said earlier when scripture calls for people to believe, abide, or return to God, that is redundant or contradictory if indeed mankind didn't have free will.

It is also redundant and makes God not true to His Word.

1 Timothy 2:3-4
New InternatioVersions of version

3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

If no choice is involved then why does God not do as he pleases?

There just isn't any way around this. And if these two verses were enough, Paul tells us that there is a reason; a purpose for God to have done what he did. But first, I should add that Paul is quoting the Old Testament regarding this "deep sleep."

Isa 29:10; Deut 29:4.

So again, there is more. Paul tells of the reason for this sleep, and it is this:

Romans 11:11 NLT - "Did God's people stumble and fall beyond recovery? Of course not! They were disobedient, so God made salvation available to the Gentiles. But he wanted his own people to become jealous and claim it for themselves."

The purpose for God stripping away Israel's ability to choose him was to bring them to a point of jealousy by grafting in the Gentiles. Again, this all points to what I mentioned first, which is that there is a Mysterious, Eternal Plan that was established before the beginning of creation, hence, an "Eternal Plan."

I agree but I believe God to be powerful enough to work in the will of man to bring about the will of God. So I see harmony with the scriptures and points I have brought up.

Unless we're going to say that we, the English-speaking world, have mistranscribed original texts, there's no way around the fact that at a bare minimum, "most of Israel had been put into a deep sleep." Again, there is no way around the fact that Israel had been stripped of their free right to choose God . . . except for a few that the Lord had chosen, or, enabled. This is what the Veil of Moses is all about.

2 Corinthians 3:14-18 NLT - "But the people's minds were hardened, and to this day whenever the old covenant is being read, the same veil covers their minds so they cannot understand the truth. And this veil can be removed only by believing in Christ. 15 Yes, even today when they read Moses' writings, their hearts are covered with that veil, and they do not understand. 16 But whenever someone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 For the Lord is the Spirit, and wherever the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 So all of us who have had that veil removed can see and reflect the glory of the Lord. And the Lord--who is the Spirit--makes us more and more like him as we are changed into his glorious image."

As we can see, the Veil must be removed . . . and the only to do that is Christ, hence, the Circumcision of Christ.

I don't know how to make these things more clear than what Scripture provides. I'm not taking things out of context, for the context is clearly established by the writer . . . Paul. Yet, these passages don't seem to mean anything but to only a small handful.

But is it also plausible that God could see before time who would not respond? God even sets the boundaries where people would live. So many who are Islam are Muslim because of their culture. Could it even be possible God knew they wouldn't respond?

You can not hold someone accountable to sin if they have no choice.

Here this may also explain in more detail. A past thread I created and debated.

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/the-absence-of-free-will.187333/

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Amen great assessment

 

[Roughsoul1991]

amen really interesting read thanks for sharing

“And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭6:5-7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and then later we look forward after that pattern shown us in the ot

“This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭3:1-5‬ ‭

it seems the state of mans heart and mind is the greatest sign of the end when no one else will repent it seems it’s near. History repeats itself

It didn't tag your name so the post above is responding to your latest post.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

My take on this.

Evil didn't just pop into being it has always existed right alongside good..
We can see this in heaven when Lucifer decided to rebell against his creator.

Now some will argue that God did not create evil but cannot prove it's beginning.

Jet.26:1-4
V3. If so be they will hearken,and TURN every man from his evil way,that I MAY REPENT OF THE EVIL,which I purpose to do unto unto them because of the evil of their doings.

Is45:5-13
I form the light,and created darkness: I make peace,and CREATE EVIL:
I the Lord do all these things.

I studied Is45:5-13 years ago. Evil is translated as calamity. This is the only place where God in translation was associated to evil. But it doesn't mean moral evil but instead like the calamity of God's righteous judgements. Righteous can not both be just and evil.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

You can not hold someone accountable to sin if they have no choice.

Exactly, and this was the point and purpose of the Law . . . to be used as a Guardian [because] the Lord placed Israel into that Deep Sleep. God literally used the Jews in their state of "Sleep" to show the rest of the world two things:

1) His controlling Power
2) Exactly what sin was/is

The verses below are clear on this:

Galatians 3:23-25 NLT - "Before the way of faith in Christ was available to us, we were placed under guard by the law. We were kept in protective custody, so to speak, until the way of faith was revealed. 24 Let me put it another way. The law was our guardian until Christ came; it protected us until we could be made right with God through faith. 25 And now that the way of faith has come, we no longer need the law as our guardian."

The beauty of this, and as it relates to what you wrote above, is that Christ separates His Elect from the Law so that there can be no sin. Where there is no law, there is no sin. This is how people can be known as "sinless." Can someone break the speed limit if the speed limit is removed? This is how people have always been made Righteous, Holy and Pure, though they were not perfect according to "law."

This is all such an amazing concept that the Lord has put together. This is what the Bible is about! The Purpose of Christ is to make His Elect Pure, Righteous, and Holy. He does this through four basic Works: 1) The Circumcision of Heart, 2) Granting the desire to Turn and Repent, 3) Sends the Gift of the Holy Spirit, 4) Died on the cross to make His Elect Right with God . . . to pay the penalty for our corrupt, Cursed hearts.

Unbelievable.

 

[Gardenias]

It's ok.
I'll not be involved in BDF anymore.
Thank you!

 

[Roughsoul1991]

It's ok.
I'll not be involved in BDF anymore.
Thank you!

Why?

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Exactly, and this was the point and purpose of the Law . . . to be used as a Guardian [because] the Lord placed Israel into that Deep Sleep. God literally used the Jews in their state of "Sleep" to show the rest of the world two things:

1) His controlling Power
2) Exactly what sin was/is

The verses below are clear on this:

Galatians 3:23-25 NLT - "Before the way of faith in Christ was available to us, we were placed under guard by the law. We were kept in protective custody, so to speak, until the way of faith was revealed. 24 Let me put it another way. The law was our guardian until Christ came; it protected us until we could be made right with God through faith. 25 And now that the way of faith has come, we no longer need the law as our guardian."

The beauty of this, and as it relates to what you wrote above, is that Christ separates His Elect from the Law so that there can be no sin. Where there is no law, there is no sin. This is how people can be known as "sinless." Can someone break the speed limit if the speed limit is removed? This is how people have always been made Righteous, Holy and Pure, though they were not perfect according to "law."

This is all such an amazing concept that the Lord has put together. This is what the Bible is about! The Purpose of Christ is to make His Elect Pure, Righteous, and Holy. He does this through four basic Works: 1) The Circumcision of Heart, 2) Granting the desire to Turn and Repent, 3) Sends the Gift of the Holy Spirit, 4) Died on the cross to make His Elect Right with God . . . to pay the penalty for our corrupt, Cursed hearts.

Unbelievable.

Do you believe in the doctrine of predestination?

 

[Gardenias]

Too many thin skinned ,hurt my feelings,antagonistic people here and I'm just really tired that few accept the word for what " thus saith the word."

I'll be in other forums!

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Do you believe in the doctrine of predestination?

Yezzir. I recognize the passages of the Bible that seem to discredit the idea, but I also recognize those that show total ownership and control over all things. The only way that I could deny predestination were to be to suggest that perhaps humans had misunderstood the original texts. And then I look at the entirety of my life . . . I see how I was different from all others in my family. Though I wasn't saved until nearly 50 years old, my heart was soft and tender towards others (particularly those who suffered; even animals. I certainly wasn't perfect in my life, but my sensitivity, or shall we say, sense of empathy was and still is through the roof, while my entire families were stone-cold; harboring no feeling or care for their own family members. And sadly, I'm talking about pastors, elders, their wives, missionaries, deacons . . . 150 years of leadership in my family. My point is, as I look back, I can see how I was placed on a different path than anyone else in my family until it came to the point of "father against son" "brother against brother." It all came true and is in effect as of this moment. Again . . . it is unbelievable.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Too many thin skinned ,hurt my feelings,antagonistic people here and I'm just really tired that few accept the word for what " thus saith the word."

I'll be in other forums!

Oh, yeah it is often the place where debate over doctrine happens. You know the typical I have the truth, no I have the truth and back and forth. Usually over the same dead beaten horses that have beaten for centuries just hoping to get more life out of them.

It is excellent for those wanting to learn who can ignore the mediocrity of the often elitist mentality that can come from the occasional religious zealot.

But then again almost every conversation I have on here still ends better than the debates I have with atheists. Those require 10x the patience.