My veiw on evil.
- Thread starter Roughsoul1991
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That's a rather amazing question. In my studies, I don't recall there being a clear Biblical answer for this, but because Paul tells us that God is fair and just, I would say that if they were born from the same parents, the answer would be no. That said, I am a mere human, so I don't actually know.
Consider this, though:
Ecclesiastes 6:3-5 NIV - "A man may have a hundred children and live many years; yet no matter how long he lives, if he cannot enjoy his prosperity and does not receive proper burial, I say that a stillborn child is better off than he. It comes without meaning, it departs in darkness, and in darkness its name is shrouded. Though it never saw the sun or knew anything, it has more rest than does that man . . ."
It's an interesting idea . . . that if an infant, or fetus is better off than an adult, this certainly must be indicative of their sense of Eternity. This passage should lend a certain amount of peace to those who have offered abortion in error. In my estimation, the Lord takes care of His infants. Remember the verse that went undiscussed about the sparrows? Would it not be the same for unborn, stillborn, or babies that die of cancer?
Matthew 10:29 NKJV - "Are not two sparrows sold for a copper coin? And not one of them falls to the ground apart from your Father's will."
Consider this, though:
Ecclesiastes 6:3-5 NIV - "A man may have a hundred children and live many years; yet no matter how long he lives, if he cannot enjoy his prosperity and does not receive proper burial, I say that a stillborn child is better off than he. It comes without meaning, it departs in darkness, and in darkness its name is shrouded. Though it never saw the sun or knew anything, it has more rest than does that man . . ."
It's an interesting idea . . . that if an infant, or fetus is better off than an adult, this certainly must be indicative of their sense of Eternity. This passage should lend a certain amount of peace to those who have offered abortion in error. In my estimation, the Lord takes care of His infants. Remember the verse that went undiscussed about the sparrows? Would it not be the same for unborn, stillborn, or babies that die of cancer?
Matthew 10:29 NKJV - "Are not two sparrows sold for a copper coin? And not one of them falls to the ground apart from your Father's will."
The OP does not answer this question, neither does it mention Satan (formerly Lucifer) and the origin of evil with him. Even so, we are not really told why God allowed Satan to continue to exist, or evil to remain in this world. We can only surmise that God had a good reason to do so. Even after the Flood sin and evil were not eradicated. Even after the tower of Babel, sin and evil were not eradicated. But it is only after the Second Coming of Christ, and the establishment of the New Heavens and the New Earth, that there will be perfect righteousness and peace on earth.
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The Bible seems clear that nothing is outside of His control. What seems clear to me from cover to cover as the single most important thing that we would recognize . . . is the Power of God. In an Excel spreadsheet, I have 150 entires under the category of "Power of God" alone. This does not include other categories, such as "Controlled," "Mind Control," "Controlled by the Spirit," and several others. My first pass through the Bible as I cataloged these things was absolutely fascinating.
I am utterly convinced that God allows all things that we do . . . and He doesn't have to. Check out what He did [for] king Abemelech:
Genesis 20:2-6 NET - "Abraham said about his wife Sarah, "She is my sister." So Abimelech, king of Gerar, sent for Sarah and took her. But God appeared to Abimelech in a dream at night and said to him, "You are as good as dead because of the woman you have taken, for she is someone else's wife." Now Abimelech had not gone near her. He said, "Lord, would you really slaughter an innocent nation? Did Abraham not say to me, 'She is my sister'? And she herself said, 'He is my brother.' I have done this with a clear conscience and with innocent hands!" Then in the dream God replied to him, "Yes, I know that you have done this with a clear conscience. That is why I have kept you from sinning against me and why I did not allow you to touch her."
God is in control of ALL things.
I am utterly convinced that God allows all things that we do . . . and He doesn't have to. Check out what He did [for] king Abemelech:
Genesis 20:2-6 NET - "Abraham said about his wife Sarah, "She is my sister." So Abimelech, king of Gerar, sent for Sarah and took her. But God appeared to Abimelech in a dream at night and said to him, "You are as good as dead because of the woman you have taken, for she is someone else's wife." Now Abimelech had not gone near her. He said, "Lord, would you really slaughter an innocent nation? Did Abraham not say to me, 'She is my sister'? And she herself said, 'He is my brother.' I have done this with a clear conscience and with innocent hands!" Then in the dream God replied to him, "Yes, I know that you have done this with a clear conscience. That is why I have kept you from sinning against me and why I did not allow you to touch her."
God is in control of ALL things.
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I haven't scanned the whole thread...mostly because I just popped on the site for a second but my eyes are giving me trouble. alas.
A thought came to me with regard to free will though. I'm not sure why you can't have "limited" free will and that be inconsistent. The analogy of a parent and child comes to mind.
A child has the ability to make decisions, thoughts, etc. within certain confines but they are still limited by their immaturity even if they pushed the boundaries. Contrast that with a parent. They can obviously veto things if stuff gets out of hand but can also gentle redirect or guide things.
Idk, it's quite late and it's a bit half formed but it's a good starting place for how two wills can exist together and be "free".
A child's freedom is within confines that a parent is not, so also though, the parent has freedoms but is confined differently. The analogy has its limits when applied to the creator but it's a good place to start to me at present.
Have a productive day
A thought came to me with regard to free will though. I'm not sure why you can't have "limited" free will and that be inconsistent. The analogy of a parent and child comes to mind.
A child has the ability to make decisions, thoughts, etc. within certain confines but they are still limited by their immaturity even if they pushed the boundaries. Contrast that with a parent. They can obviously veto things if stuff gets out of hand but can also gentle redirect or guide things.
Idk, it's quite late and it's a bit half formed but it's a good starting place for how two wills can exist together and be "free".
A child's freedom is within confines that a parent is not, so also though, the parent has freedoms but is confined differently. The analogy has its limits when applied to the creator but it's a good place to start to me at present.
Have a productive day
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Amen I think when we read of God doing evil we should realize he first tells mankind the truth and then mankind does this against his already stated word that is immutable
“Yet ye have not hearkened unto me, saith the Lord; that ye might provoke me to anger with the works of your hands to your own hurt.”
Jeremiah 25:7
his word is structured to teach us of Good and blessing but also his word always offers a warning of evil and it’s consequences. We provoke him because once he speaks it must come for instance
he created man in his image , blessed us and placed us in Eden where we could fellowship with him and eat of the tree of life and then
“And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.”
Genesis 2:16-17 KJV
this was to keep Man safe , but if man chose to break it the evil is going to come and so death passed upon them by thier transgression . Gods Will for us is always good but we continually choose to break that good word of promise and the warning of evil then comes.
Gods word is always meant to save and keep us alive he’s constantly warning us of what evil will bring to us and telling us don’t do it I’m telling you beforehand
same later in the Bible when he gave the law
“I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:”
Deuteronomy 30:19 KJV
because he doesn’t force us on anything he’s always presenting us with the truth ahead of time and warns us of rejecting it but all things come from his word both blessing if we embrace and believe him and curse if we reject it
it’s the same for us now
he’s forewarned us of the judgement of the wicked who refuse to repent , d promised us the blessing of those who repent and accept Christ . We can receive good or evil it’s always been up to us to hear and believe what he’s saying including the warnings evil comes when we reject his word but it’s our will not his
“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”
2 Peter 3:9 KJV
“Yet ye have not hearkened unto me, saith the Lord; that ye might provoke me to anger with the works of your hands to your own hurt.”
Jeremiah 25:7
his word is structured to teach us of Good and blessing but also his word always offers a warning of evil and it’s consequences. We provoke him because once he speaks it must come for instance
he created man in his image , blessed us and placed us in Eden where we could fellowship with him and eat of the tree of life and then
“And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.”
Genesis 2:16-17 KJV
this was to keep Man safe , but if man chose to break it the evil is going to come and so death passed upon them by thier transgression . Gods Will for us is always good but we continually choose to break that good word of promise and the warning of evil then comes.
Gods word is always meant to save and keep us alive he’s constantly warning us of what evil will bring to us and telling us don’t do it I’m telling you beforehand
same later in the Bible when he gave the law
“I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:”
Deuteronomy 30:19 KJV
because he doesn’t force us on anything he’s always presenting us with the truth ahead of time and warns us of rejecting it but all things come from his word both blessing if we embrace and believe him and curse if we reject it
it’s the same for us now
he’s forewarned us of the judgement of the wicked who refuse to repent , d promised us the blessing of those who repent and accept Christ . We can receive good or evil it’s always been up to us to hear and believe what he’s saying including the warnings evil comes when we reject his word but it’s our will not his
“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”
2 Peter 3:9 KJV
amen !
“That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.”
Ephesians 4:22-24 KJV
It’s why hearing and believing is our salvation it changes our mind from what it was before we met Christ to his work in re creating us from the inside out
“Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand:
repent ye, ( put off the old man who is corrupt )
and believe the gospel.”( be renewed in the spirit of your mind )
Mark 1:14-15 KJV
it works for all of us sinners who are willing to believe in Jesus , hear his word , and believe unto righteousness. Hearing and actually believing the gospel has the power to change us at our core
“That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.”
Ephesians 4:22-24 KJV
It’s why hearing and believing is our salvation it changes our mind from what it was before we met Christ to his work in re creating us from the inside out
“Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand:
repent ye, ( put off the old man who is corrupt )
and believe the gospel.”( be renewed in the spirit of your mind )
Mark 1:14-15 KJV
it works for all of us sinners who are willing to believe in Jesus , hear his word , and believe unto righteousness. Hearing and actually believing the gospel has the power to change us at our core
I haven't scanned the whole thread...mostly because I just popped on the site for a second but my eyes are giving me trouble. alas.
A thought came to me with regard to free will though. I'm not sure why you can't have "limited" free will and that be inconsistent. The analogy of a parent and child comes to mind.
A child has the ability to make decisions, thoughts, etc. within certain confines but they are still limited by their immaturity even if they pushed the boundaries. Contrast that with a parent. They can obviously veto things if stuff gets out of hand but can also gentle redirect or guide things.
Idk, it's quite late and it's a bit half formed but it's a good starting place for how two wills can exist together and be "free".
A child's freedom is within confines that a parent is not, so also though, the parent has freedoms but is confined differently. The analogy has its limits when applied to the creator but it's a good place to start to me at present.
Have a productive day
A thought came to me with regard to free will though. I'm not sure why you can't have "limited" free will and that be inconsistent. The analogy of a parent and child comes to mind.
A child has the ability to make decisions, thoughts, etc. within certain confines but they are still limited by their immaturity even if they pushed the boundaries. Contrast that with a parent. They can obviously veto things if stuff gets out of hand but can also gentle redirect or guide things.
Idk, it's quite late and it's a bit half formed but it's a good starting place for how two wills can exist together and be "free".
A child's freedom is within confines that a parent is not, so also though, the parent has freedoms but is confined differently. The analogy has its limits when applied to the creator but it's a good place to start to me at present.
Have a productive day
Your mentioning this certainly seems to be the most reasonable idea. To add to what you're saying, when a parents moves to one city, the child must follow or be left behind. Few children are willing to be left behind, for they cannot provide for themselves. What you are offering seems to be right, or, the other option would be that we are a living simulation of the pre-written Scroll of the Lord. And again, it is that Scroll that has the events of life pre-determined . . . at least for owls and falcons. How much more, then, does the Scroll apply to humans (who are vastly more important than little creatures)?
Consider Shimei . . . were not his actions towards David and his men apparently pre-determined by the Lord?
2 Samuel 16:5-11 NLT - "As King David came to Bahurim, a man came out of the village cursing them. It was Shimei son of Gera, from the same clan as Saul's family. He threw stones at the king and the king's officers and all the mighty warriors who surrounded him. "Get out of here, you murderer, you scoundrel!" he shouted at David. "The LORD is paying you back for all the bloodshed in Saul's clan. You stole his throne, and now the LORD has given it to your son Absalom. At last you will taste some of your own medicine, for you are a murderer!" "Why should this dead dog curse my lord the king?" Abishai son of Zeruiah demanded. "Let me go over and cut off his head!" "No!" the king said. "Who asked your opinion, you sons of Zeruiah! If the LORD has told him to curse me, who are you to stop him?" Then David said to Abishai and to all his servants, "My own son is trying to kill me. Doesn't this relative of Saul have even more reason to do so? Leave him alone and let him curse, for the LORD has told him to do it."
This is but another story that I have posted numerous times on the forum, but it goes unrecognized. Translation doesn't matter, for they all say essentially the same thing, which is that God ordered Shimei to do all that he did. So I ask . . . were the actions and words of Shimei from his own volition? Or, was he caused to do and say what he did and said? The answer is quite clear (at least to me).
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This is an interesting way of putting things. I suppose you could be right. Consitent with the them of the Bible, though, we are certainly Redeemed. But . . . Redeemed from what? You might appreciate the NLT translation of Galatians 3:13, for it is the only translation that words this passage in this way:
Galatians 3:13 NLT - "But Christ has rescued us from the curse pronounced by the law. When he was hung on the cross, he took upon himself the curse for our wrongdoing. For it is written in the Scriptures, "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."
This is a clear explanation for the Purpose of Christ. Colossians 2:9-15 outlines the Work of how Jesus implements His Purpose. How are we Redeemed from the Curse? Through Circumcision of the Heart . . . this is the point of the Circumcision of Christ. Without the Spiritual Circumcision of Christ, there can be no Redemption from the Curse. As mentioned, all other translations state that the Law is the Curse. That defies Romans chapter five, which outlines the Adamic Curse, and it also defies the Tree of Life as described in Genesis 3:22-24. Eating from the Tree of Life [is] the Circumcision of Christ. They are one in the same. So, how is "Love Thy Neighbor" a Curse? It isn't. How is "Thou Shalt Not Kill" a Curse? It isn't. Therefore, it seems to "flow" with the core context of the entire Bible, which is that the Law of Moses exposed the Curse. The Law showed us exactly what sin was, for as Paul said, he wouldn't have known that coveting was wrong if it had not been for the Law telling him so.
Romans 7:7-8 NLT - "Well then, am I suggesting that the law of God is sinful? Of course not! In fact, it was the law that showed me my sin. I would never have known that coveting is wrong if the law had not said, "You must not covet." But sin used this command to arouse all kinds of covetous desires within me! If there were no law, sin would not have that power."
But, but . . . when the Curse has been cut away from a person's now Regenerated Heart . . . does that knowledge disappear? No, it doesn't. Instead, Scripture states that we are transformed more and more to reflect the Glory of God's image. But again, this does not mean that we forget about our former ways. That knowledge always remains, which would explain why and how Paul and Peter could tell us to avoid our former ways and deeds of the "flesh."
Ephesians 4:31-32 NIV - "Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you."
And so change is the Effect of the Work of Christ, the Purpose for the arrival of Christ.
Galatians 3:13 NLT - "But Christ has rescued us from the curse pronounced by the law. When he was hung on the cross, he took upon himself the curse for our wrongdoing. For it is written in the Scriptures, "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."
This is a clear explanation for the Purpose of Christ. Colossians 2:9-15 outlines the Work of how Jesus implements His Purpose. How are we Redeemed from the Curse? Through Circumcision of the Heart . . . this is the point of the Circumcision of Christ. Without the Spiritual Circumcision of Christ, there can be no Redemption from the Curse. As mentioned, all other translations state that the Law is the Curse. That defies Romans chapter five, which outlines the Adamic Curse, and it also defies the Tree of Life as described in Genesis 3:22-24. Eating from the Tree of Life [is] the Circumcision of Christ. They are one in the same. So, how is "Love Thy Neighbor" a Curse? It isn't. How is "Thou Shalt Not Kill" a Curse? It isn't. Therefore, it seems to "flow" with the core context of the entire Bible, which is that the Law of Moses exposed the Curse. The Law showed us exactly what sin was, for as Paul said, he wouldn't have known that coveting was wrong if it had not been for the Law telling him so.
Romans 7:7-8 NLT - "Well then, am I suggesting that the law of God is sinful? Of course not! In fact, it was the law that showed me my sin. I would never have known that coveting is wrong if the law had not said, "You must not covet." But sin used this command to arouse all kinds of covetous desires within me! If there were no law, sin would not have that power."
But, but . . . when the Curse has been cut away from a person's now Regenerated Heart . . . does that knowledge disappear? No, it doesn't. Instead, Scripture states that we are transformed more and more to reflect the Glory of God's image. But again, this does not mean that we forget about our former ways. That knowledge always remains, which would explain why and how Paul and Peter could tell us to avoid our former ways and deeds of the "flesh."
Ephesians 4:31-32 NIV - "Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you."
And so change is the Effect of the Work of Christ, the Purpose for the arrival of Christ.