'Reductionist' versus 'Complete' view of the Gospel

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Feb 24, 2022
1,346
288
83
Wrong.
If you have faith you will follow God's word. Faith cannot be partial acceptance of the Bible commandments.
Christ was baptized...as a ritual? You gotta be kidding.

Show me scripture which refutes the following commandment;

Baptism is Required


Peter 3: 21.... whereunto even baptism doth also now save us...

John 3:5 .......Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


Acts 2;38-....Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 22;16... And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.


Galations 3:26...... For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

KJV Marrk 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved....but he that believeth not shall be damned.

KJV Matthew 3:14... But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? 15. Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now, for thus it becometh us to fulfil all rightesousness. Then He suffered Him.

KJV Matthew 28:19..... Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:.

Acts 8:12-18: But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized.

Quote from Billy Graham that is note worthy;
....Also, to clarify I did not say remission of sin takes place at repentance. Scripture makes it clear that it occurs upon obedience to water baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus. Each is a step of faith, along with receiving the Holy Ghost, in the process of one's spiritual rebirth

.."Paul explains the doctrinal significance of what occurs when one is baptized.His explanation is found in his letter to those who had already been obedient to the command.

Paul tells the Roman Christians what actually occurred when they were/are baptized; they were baptized into His death. Being buried with Jesus into His death resulted in their sin being destroyed.

Even though Paul explains this concept, the NEW AGE RELIGION TEACHING is......... that water baptism is nothing other than a mere public display.......... And that is so far removed from the truth.

Keep in mind that Satan knows if he can continue to perpetuate that lie ...... he can keep people from entering the kingdom of God. Thus He has proven scripture which says ...in the end times there will be ...great delusions.....they are here.

Conclusion....teaching that baptism is not necessary is violation of Rev. 22;19.... And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. 20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
"Baptized" in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Not water. When the church was born on Pentecost, all 3000 of them received the Holy Spirit first, and Peter baptized them later after his sermon. All of the disciples were baptized, John the Baptist baptized lots of people every day, but none of them was saved until they received the Holy Spirit on Pentecost. The truth is, we're all born of water in the womb, but to be born again, it takes the Holy Spirit and ONLY the Holy Spirit.
 

Snacks

Well-known member
Feb 10, 2022
1,410
771
113
Wrong.
If you have faith you will follow God's word. Faith cannot be partial acceptance of the Bible commandments.
Christ was baptized...as a ritual? You gotta be kidding.

Show me scripture which refutes the following commandment;

Baptism is Required


Peter 3: 21.... whereunto even baptism doth also now save us...

John 3:5 .......Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


Acts 2;38-....Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 22;16... And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.


Galations 3:26...... For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

KJV Marrk 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved....but he that believeth not shall be damned.

KJV Matthew 3:14... But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? 15. Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now, for thus it becometh us to fulfil all rightesousness. Then He suffered Him.

KJV Matthew 28:19..... Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:.

Acts 8:12-18: But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized.

Quote from Billy Graham that is note worthy;
....Also, to clarify I did not say remission of sin takes place at repentance. Scripture makes it clear that it occurs upon obedience to water baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus. Each is a step of faith, along with receiving the Holy Ghost, in the process of one's spiritual rebirth

.."Paul explains the doctrinal significance of what occurs when one is baptized.His explanation is found in his letter to those who had already been obedient to the command.

Paul tells the Roman Christians what actually occurred when they were/are baptized; they were baptized into His death. Being buried with Jesus into His death resulted in their sin being destroyed.

Even though Paul explains this concept, the NEW AGE RELIGION TEACHING is......... that water baptism is nothing other than a mere public display.......... And that is so far removed from the truth.

Keep in mind that Satan knows if he can continue to perpetuate that lie ...... he can keep people from entering the kingdom of God. Thus He has proven scripture which says ...in the end times there will be ...great delusions.....they are here.

Conclusion....teaching that baptism is not necessary is violation of Rev. 22;19.... And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. 20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
You sure are angry. I hope you won’t be angry seeing people in Heaven who didn’t agree with you. If only you rejoiced for people who have faith in Jesus Christ. That would be a beautiful display of love and righteousness.
 

Snacks

Well-known member
Feb 10, 2022
1,410
771
113
According to Paul baptism is a burial. Burials do not involve being sprinkled with dirt. (Rom. 6:3-6)

During Jesus baptism, He came straight up out of the water. Matt. 3:16

The apostles went to a place where there was much water to baptize. Immersion requires much water, sprinkling does not. John 3:23
So when people are baptized by sprinkling, their profession of faith is not valid because of the baptism method and they are not filled with the Holy Spirit and ultimately they don’t have salvation?
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
9,164
1,794
113
Quote from Billy Graham that is note worthy;
....Also, to clarify I did not say remission of sin takes place at repentance. Scripture makes it clear that it occurs upon obedience to water baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus. Each is a step of faith, along with receiving the Holy Ghost, in the process of one's spiritual rebirth
When did Billy Graham say or write this? Do you have the source? I've probably heard a few Billy Graham sermons over the years, but I do not recall his urging people to be baptized after repeating the confessional prayer thing he had them do, which is often known as 'the sinner's prayer.'

From what I have been able to ascertain, the practice of confessing faith by means of a prayer like this became widespread after Billy Graham started doing it in his crusades. Other evangelists did something similar.

Over time, the parts about being a sinner, the cross, and the resurrection of Christ were dropped from some of the prayers and the preaching the preceded it in some churches. And a little speech about religion v. relationship was added, and other things like that.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
9,164
1,794
113
"and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even. "
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
9,164
1,794
113
The apostles went to a place where there was much water to baptize. Immersion requires much water, sprinkling does not. John 3:23
The eunuch did not say, "I have hear a bottle with a drop of water in it. What is to prevent me from being baptized?"
 

Snacks

Well-known member
Feb 10, 2022
1,410
771
113
“Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.”
Jesus Christ to the sinful woman ~ Luke 7
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
5,254
1,109
113
So when people are baptized by sprinkling, their profession of faith is not valid because of the baptism method and they are not filled with the Holy Spirit and ultimately they don’t have salvation?
I presented how water baptisms took place in the biblical record. Sadly many of today's church doctrines, including baptism by sprinkling, are no more than manmade tradition. God indicates that partial obedience to His commandments are done in vain. (Mark 7:7-13) Jesus is the author of eternal salvation for all those who obey Him. (Heb. 5:9)
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
5,254
1,109
113
“Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.”
Jesus Christ to the sinful woman ~ Luke 7
God's NT mandate was instituted for all mankind after the Holy Ghost was poured out on the Day of Pentecost. The entire gospel message concerning Jesus' death, burial and resurrection, and the obedience required in association with it is recorded in Acts 2:38 and later to the Gentiles in Acts 10:43-48.
 

Snacks

Well-known member
Feb 10, 2022
1,410
771
113
I presented how water baptisms took place in the biblical record. Sadly many of today's church doctrines, including baptism by sprinkling, are no more than manmade tradition. God indicates that partial obedience to His commandments are done in vain. (Mark 7:7-13) Jesus is the author of eternal salvation for all those who obey Him. (Heb. 5:9)
God looks at one’s heart, not the volume of water or the manner in which its distributed.
 

Snacks

Well-known member
Feb 10, 2022
1,410
771
113
God's NT mandate was instituted for all mankind after the Holy Ghost was poured out on the Day of Pentecost. The entire gospel message concerning Jesus' death, burial and resurrection, and the obedience required in association with it is recorded in Acts 2:38 and later to the Gentiles in Acts 10:43-48.
The obedience required is faith and love.
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
5,254
1,109
113
God looks at one’s heart, not the volume of water or the manner in which its distributed.
Obedience to God's commands is not optional; they serve a purpose.
 
Feb 24, 2022
1,346
288
83
God looks at one’s heart, not the volume of water or the manner in which its distributed.
Just take water baptism as a testimony before men. That is the rite of passage into a new life, it's like the oath of office or the wedding vow.
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
5,254
1,109
113
The obedience required is faith and love.
The Word says faith without works is dead, and it is by works that faith is made perfect. (James 2:20-24)
 

SomeDisciple

Well-known member
Jul 4, 2021
2,271
1,050
113
I'm not a huge fan of a "reductionist" gospel. I think it's to whom much is given, much is required. If you believe in Jesus, you'll get baptized (or do any other thing he wants you to do), or get chastised until you finally do that thing he wants you to do, or you'll eventually turn away from him. It's probably better to just get baptized, than wait until God sends a whale to eat you or something.