One taken,one left. The rapture.

[RichMan]

There were things people did not understand about the prophesies of his first coming until after they were fulfilled. Nevertheless they could have hope without being clear on the details.

There are things about the second coming we don't know until after they are fulfilled but we can still have hope and expectation and focus on living ready and reaching the lost.

I have often wondered if it would be a sign in the heavens that even though it suddenly is announced one day, it is drawn out over a period of days. Like a star getting closer until they realize it is not just a star but the Lord in the glory of the Father. The believers are transfigured like the sun and rise.. But the gathering in the sky lasts for days.

According to 1 Corinthians 15 it happens in a twinkling of an eye for all.
As for signs, the events announced by the sound of the seven trumps of God are the signs.

 

[kleronomos]

No. The "coming of the Lord" refers specifically to His Second Coming, just as Heb 9:28, which you quoted above, says.

At the Second coming, there will be the single resurrection of all believers (1 Cor 15:23) and Rev 20:4,5 SAYS that is the FIRST resurrection, which includes Tribulation martyrs, showing this FIRST resurrection to be the resurrection of the saved. ALL the saved.

This Second coming will end the Tribulation and then the King of kings will set up His Millennial Kingdom on earth, where ALL glorified believers will serve/reign with Him. Depending on their evaluation at the Bema (2 Cor 5:10).

It is AFTER the Millennial Reign that ALL unbelievers will be resurrected (minus glorified bodies) to appear at the GWT judgment, and after their evaluation, be cast into the lake of fire. Rev 20:11-15

Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.


HERE ARE THE LAST WORDS OUR LORD AND SAVIOR SPOKE BEFORE HE ASCENDED TO WHERE HE IS NOW. WHAT TRUTH IS FOUND WITHIN THEM?

HOW MANY MORE PLACES OF DIRECT CONFLICT NEED TO BE POINTED OUT BEFORE 'CONJECTURE' IS PROVEN TO BE INCORRECT? THE LIST IS GETTING LONGER AND LONGER OF WHY 'THE HIDDEN' THINGS CAN NOT BE TRUTH.


8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

WHAT WOULD BE REQUIRED TO MAKE THIS LAST STATEMENT JESUS MADE INTO A LIE?

The uttermost part
2078. eschatos
Strong's Concordance
eschatos: last, extreme
Original Word: ἔσχατος, η, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: eschatos
Phonetic Spelling: (es'-khat-os)
Definition: last, extreme
Usage: last, at the last, finally, till the end.
HELPS Word-studies
2078 ésxatos (from esxaton, "end, last") – properly, last, final (the furthest, extreme-end). 2078/esxatos ("future things"), the root of "eschatology" is "the study of last things." This includes future Bible prophecy, the end-times, and life after death ("the after-life").


9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

Acts 1:10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

 

[Amanuensis]

According to 1 Corinthians 15 it happens in a twinkling of an eye for all.
As for signs, the events announced by the sound of the seven trumps of God are the signs.

The twinkling of an eye is the speed at which those who are alive are changed and made immortal, glorified. Physically Transfigured. That is all that is saying.

 

[RichMan]

The twinkling of an eye is the speed at which those who are alive are changed and made immortal, glorified. Physically Transfigured. That is all that is saying.

And your point is?

 

[Amanuensis]

Multifacited Yes, BUT only One Singular Second Coming.

There are NO multiple Comings (more then 1st & 2nd) of the LORD in the Prophets, Gospel, Letters & Revelation

Too late. There has already been multiple comings. Those prophecies about his first coming they thought were the ones about the only coming. They were wrong. Let's not get too uppity and think we are superior to scholars of prophesy before us. They were pretty good to know what they did from the vague prophesies they had to work with. But still they failed on many points.

I think we should learn from that and remain humble. Lots left unexplained. And that is God's plan. He hasn't given us all the details that some pretend to have.

 

[DavidTree]

Too late. There has already been multiple comings. Those prophecies about his first coming they thought were the ones about the only coming. They were wrong. Let's not get too uppity and think we are superior to scholars of prophesy before us. They were pretty good to know what they did from the vague prophesies they had to work with. But still they failed on many points.

I think we should learn from that and remain humble. Lots left unexplained. And that is God's plan. He hasn't given us all the details that some pretend to have.

Too Late???

There has only been ONE Coming of the Only Begotten Son of God so far.........and we now await His Second Coming.

You are adding to the confusion by saying that which is error(against Scripture) = multiple Comings of Messiah.

 

[RichMan]

Too late. There has already been multiple comings. Those prophecies about his first coming they thought were the ones about the only coming. They were wrong. Let's not get too uppity and think we are superior to scholars of prophesy before us. They were pretty good to know what they did from the vague prophesies they had to work with. But still they failed on many points.

I think we should learn from that and remain humble. Lots left unexplained. And that is God's plan. He hasn't given us all the details that some pretend to have.

The only people who see vague prophesies are people who search Scripture to prove their belief instead of searching Scripture to learn what it says.

 

[Amanuensis]

The only people who see vague prophesies are people who search Scripture to prove their belief instead of searching Scripture to learn what it says.

Oh yeah? Tell me what the seven thunders include?

We don't know because he said not to write it down.

So we know that the seven trumpets, include a lot, and the seven vials include quite a bit, and the other sevens... so if the seven thunders were comparable in content (i.e. various judgments and related events on earth) but were sealed and not to be written by John we can then assume that there is quite a bit purposely left out of the events that are revealed in Revelation.

Many of these events will probably happen during that time and some uppity prophecy expert will be thinking... "hey.. not fair.. none of this was in Revelation" so you see... we don't know it all and there are lots left undisclosed yet.

 

[kleronomos]

Too late. There has already been multiple comings. Those prophecies about his first coming they thought were the ones about the only coming. They were wrong. Let's not get too uppity and think we are superior to scholars of prophesy before us. They were pretty good to know what they did from the vague prophesies they had to work with. But still they failed on many points.

I think we should learn from that and remain humble. Lots left unexplained. And that is God's plan. He hasn't given us all the details that some pretend to have.

Mark 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
21 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:
22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.

I believe EVERYTHING is there, WE just can't see it. I know I have read the same verses 50 times and never saw something written there. I REALLY TRULY believe that God only 'LETS US' see things when He is ready for us to receive that information. Like in doing these posts here I have 'SEEN'/learned things I never saw before.

Like the command to be at the right side until enemies made footstool, so He can't leave.

Or there is a war going on until Satan is cast out. So the church CAN'T be raptured PRE TRIB as they are fighting up there till he is cast out, LEAVING NO TIME to 'go get the church' and then we have WOE WOE WOE to the earth right after, another not a good time for a pre trib rapture either.

Or the last statement Jesus made that I just saw today for the first time ever. 8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. That is just another STONE in the wall of truth being built.

I thought I was done with this as I hadn't 'seen' anything new lately but apparently not yet

 

[kleronomos]

Oh yeah? Tell me what the seven thunders include?

I feel like I stand corrected also. I know we will know but we really can't know before that can we? Should be interesting

 

[RichMan]

Oh yeah? Tell me what the seven thunders include?

We don't know because he said not to write it down.

So we know that the seven trumpets, include a lot, and the seven vials include quite a bit, and the other sevens... so if the seven thunders were comparable in content (i.e. various judgments and related events on earth) but were sealed and not to be written by John we can then assume that there is quite a bit purposely left out of the events that are revealed in Revelation.

Many of these events will probably happen during that time and some uppity prophecy expert will be thinking... "hey.. not fair.. none of this was in Revelation" so you see... we don't know it all and there are lots left undisclosed yet.

Nothing vague about the seven thunders.
We are not told, are not to know, so should not speculate.
Prophecy is given for us to know what is to come.
Some has been fulfilled, some is yet to come.

 

[Amanuensis]

Too Late???

There has only been ONE Coming of the Only Begotten Son of God so far.........and we now await His Second Coming.

You are adding to the confusion by saying that which is error(against Scripture) = multiple Comings of Messiah.

Too late to say that there will not be multiple comings. There already has been one and there is coming another. That is multiple. Therefore the theology that there is only one coming of the Lord would be wrong and must be corrected to "there are two comings, the first and the second"

Having had to modify ones erroneous theology that the prophets only prophesied of one coming means that there might be details about the second coming that is more multifaceted than one thinks. Let's wait and see how it all pans out instead of saying that God "Can't do" something a certain way.

A pretribulation rapture theory is not proven to be false by using the argument that such a thing would equal to multiple comings. Such a rapture, meeting the Lord in the clouds, being preserved in a place of blessing in some heavenly realm not comprehended or revealed but nevertheless a real place, and partaking with Christ in administering these judgments on the world, and then returning with him after the judgments are over can still be called part of the second coming and not be Multiple comings. It is a weak argument to say that it can't happen because it would be multiple comings. There is nothing about the second coming prophesies that rule out many things occurring over a period of weeks months or even years.

The Revelation of Jesus Christ to the world is the content of the book of "The Revelation of Jesus Christ" and as you can read for yourself this "Revelation of Jesus Christ" seems to take some time in order for all those seals, trumpets, vials, etc to be released and the unfolding events to occur on earth and yet it is all part of this REVELATION Of JESUS CHRIST or his second coming if you will.

 

[DavidTree]

Oh yeah? Tell me what the seven thunders include?

We don't know because he said not to write it down.

So we know that the seven trumpets, include a lot, and the seven vials include quite a bit, and the other sevens... so if the seven thunders were comparable in content (i.e. various judgments and related events on earth) but were sealed and not to be written by John we can then assume that there is quite a bit purposely left out of the events that are revealed in Revelation.

Many of these events will probably happen during that time and some uppity prophecy expert will be thinking... "hey.. not fair.. none of this was in Revelation" so you see... we don't know it all and there are lots left undisclosed yet.

So then, we have our guide to understanding = If God said "do not write it down" then we should not say anything that God has not told us to speak like = "multiple Comings of the Son of God"

Have you never read: " Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God."

Do you know who HE said that too???

 

[DavidTree]

Too late to say that there will not be multiple comings. There already has been one and there is coming another. That is multiple. Therefore the theology that there is only one coming of the Lord would be wrong and must be corrected to "there are two comings, the first and the second"

Having had to modify ones erroneous theology that the prophets only prophesied of one coming means that there might be details about the second coming that is more multifaceted than one thinks. Let's wait and see how it all pans out instead of saying that God "Can't do" something a certain way.

A pretribulation rapture theory is not proven to be false by using the argument that such a thing would equal to multiple comings. Such a rapture, meeting the Lord in the clouds, being preserved in a place of blessing in some heavenly realm not comprehended or revealed but nevertheless a real place, and partaking with Christ in administering these judgments on the world, and then returning with him after the judgments are over can still be called part of the second coming and not be Multiple comings. It is a weak argument to say that it can't happen because it would be multiple comings. There is nothing about the second coming prophesies that rule out many things occurring over a period of weeks months or even years.

The Revelation of Jesus Christ to the world is the content of the book of "The Revelation of Jesus Christ" and as you can read for yourself this "Revelation of Jesus Christ" seems to take some time in order for all those seals, trumpets, vials, etc to be released and the unfolding events to occur on earth and yet it is all part of this REVELATION Of JESUS CHRIST or his second coming if you will.

My thoughts travel faster then my words so here is the UPDATE = Read again what I wrote............

Too Late???

There has only been ONE Coming of the Only Begotten Son of God so far.........and now we wait and look to His Second Coming.

You are adding to the confusion by saying that which is error(against Scripture) = multiple(more then 2) Comings of Messiah.

 

[Amanuensis]

Nothing vague about the seven thunders.
We are not told, are not to know, so should not speculate.
Prophecy is given for us to know what is to come.
Some has been fulfilled, some is yet to come.

I could be wrong but I think that all of this text about the seven thunders was specifically to teach us that there is a lot of things that are going to happen that we don't know about. The amount of events of the seven thunders equal to the amount of events any of the other sevens. And that could be quite a lot of events. Not on any prophecy chart and very able to mess a few up. LOL.

 

[kleronomos]

A PRE TRIB 'RAPTURE' WE CAN ALL AGREE ON


Jude 1:23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.




others also save out of {the} fire snatching, to others then show mercy with fear, hating even the by the flesh having been stained clothing

4982. sózó
Strong's Concordance
sózó: to save
Original Word: σῴζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: sózó
Phonetic Spelling: (sode'-zo)
Definition: to save
Usage: I save, heal, preserve, rescue.
HELPS Word-studies
4982 sṓzō (from sōs, "safe, rescued") – properly, deliver out of danger and into safety; used principally of God rescuing believers from the penalty and power of sin – and into His provisions (safety).

[4982 (sṓzō) is the root of: 4990 /sōtḗr ("Savior"), 4991 /sōtēría ("salvation") and the adjectival form, 4992 /sōtḗrion (what is "saved/rescued from destruction and brought into divine safety").]


4442. pur ►
Strong's Concordance
pur: fire
Original Word: πῦρ, πυρός, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: pur
Phonetic Spelling: (poor)
Definition: fire
Usage: fire; the heat of the sun, lightning; fig: strife, trials; the eternal fire.
HELPS Word-studies
4442 pýr – fire. In Scripture, fire is often used figuratively – like with the "fire of God" which transforms all it touches into light and likeness with itself

God's Spirit, like a holy fire, enlightens and purifies so that believers can share more and more in His likeness. Indeed the fire of God brings the uninterrupted privilege of being transformed which happens by experiencing faith from Him. Our lives can become true offerings to Him as we obey this imparted faith from God by His power.


726. harpazó ►
Strong's Concordance
harpazó: to seize, catch up, snatch away
Original Word: ἁρπάζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: harpazó
Phonetic Spelling: (har-pad'-zo)
Definition: to seize, catch up, snatch away
Usage: I seize, snatch, obtain by robbery.
HELPS Word-studies
726 harpázō – properly, seize by force; snatch up, suddenly and decisively – like someone seizing bounty (spoil, a prize); to take by an open display of force (i.e. not covertly or secretly).


1653. eleeó ►
Strong's Concordance
eleeó: to have pity or mercy on, to show mercy
Original Word: ἐλεέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: eleeó
Phonetic Spelling: (el-eh-eh'-o)
Definition: to have pity or mercy on, to show mercy
Usage: I pity, have mercy on.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 1653 eleéō – to show mercy as God defines it, i.e. as it accords with His truth (covenant) which expresses "God's covenant-loyalty-mercy" (i.e. acting only on His terms). See 1656 (eleos).


4695. spiloó ►
Strong's Concordance
spiloó: to stain, defile
Original Word: σπιλόω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: spiloó
Phonetic Spelling: (spee-lo'-o)
Definition: to stain, defile
Usage: I defile, spot, stain, soil.


5509. chitón ►
Strong's Concordance
chitón: a tunic
Original Word: χιτών, ῶνος, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: chitón
Phonetic Spelling: (khee-tone')
Definition: a tunic
Usage: a tunic, garment, undergarment.
HELPS Word-studies
5509 xitṓn – a tunic (under-garment) worn next to the skin. 5509 /xitṓn ("an undershirt, tunic") was worn under a 2440 /himátion ("cloak, robe").

 

[RichMan]

I could be wrong but I think that all of this text about the seven thunders was specifically to teach us that there is a lot of things that are going to happen that we don't know about. The amount of events of the seven thunders equal to the amount of events any of the other sevens. And that could be quite a lot of events. Not on any prophecy chart and very able to mess a few up. LOL.

All that is to come is not prophesied.
We are told what we need to know.
So all prophesy in Scripture can be understood.
It is up to us to study and know.

 

[RichMan]

A PRE TRIB 'RAPTURE' WE CAN ALL AGREE ON


Jude 1:23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.




others also save out of {the} fire snatching, to others then show mercy with fear, hating even the by the flesh having been stained clothing

4982. sózó
Strong's Concordance
sózó: to save
Original Word: σῴζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: sózó
Phonetic Spelling: (sode'-zo)
Definition: to save
Usage: I save, heal, preserve, rescue.
HELPS Word-studies
4982 sṓzō (from sōs, "safe, rescued") – properly, deliver out of danger and into safety; used principally of God rescuing believers from the penalty and power of sin – and into His provisions (safety).

[4982 (sṓzō) is the root of: 4990 /sōtḗr ("Savior"), 4991 /sōtēría ("salvation") and the adjectival form, 4992 /sōtḗrion (what is "saved/rescued from destruction and brought into divine safety").]


4442. pur ►
Strong's Concordance
pur: fire
Original Word: πῦρ, πυρός, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: pur
Phonetic Spelling: (poor)
Definition: fire
Usage: fire; the heat of the sun, lightning; fig: strife, trials; the eternal fire.
HELPS Word-studies
4442 pýr – fire. In Scripture, fire is often used figuratively – like with the "fire of God" which transforms all it touches into light and likeness with itself

God's Spirit, like a holy fire, enlightens and purifies so that believers can share more and more in His likeness. Indeed the fire of God brings the uninterrupted privilege of being transformed which happens by experiencing faith from Him. Our lives can become true offerings to Him as we obey this imparted faith from God by His power.


726. harpazó ►
Strong's Concordance
harpazó: to seize, catch up, snatch away
Original Word: ἁρπάζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: harpazó
Phonetic Spelling: (har-pad'-zo)
Definition: to seize, catch up, snatch away
Usage: I seize, snatch, obtain by robbery.
HELPS Word-studies
726 harpázō – properly, seize by force; snatch up, suddenly and decisively – like someone seizing bounty (spoil, a prize); to take by an open display of force (i.e. not covertly or secretly).


1653. eleeó ►
Strong's Concordance
eleeó: to have pity or mercy on, to show mercy
Original Word: ἐλεέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: eleeó
Phonetic Spelling: (el-eh-eh'-o)
Definition: to have pity or mercy on, to show mercy
Usage: I pity, have mercy on.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 1653 eleéō – to show mercy as God defines it, i.e. as it accords with His truth (covenant) which expresses "God's covenant-loyalty-mercy" (i.e. acting only on His terms). See 1656 (eleos).


4695. spiloó ►
Strong's Concordance
spiloó: to stain, defile
Original Word: σπιλόω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: spiloó
Phonetic Spelling: (spee-lo'-o)
Definition: to stain, defile
Usage: I defile, spot, stain, soil.


5509. chitón ►
Strong's Concordance
chitón: a tunic
Original Word: χιτών, ῶνος, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: chitón
Phonetic Spelling: (khee-tone')
Definition: a tunic
Usage: a tunic, garment, undergarment.
HELPS Word-studies
5509 xitṓn – a tunic (under-garment) worn next to the skin. 5509 /xitṓn ("an undershirt, tunic") was worn under a 2440 /himátion ("cloak, robe").

Nope!

 

[Amanuensis]

So then, we have our guide to understanding = If God said "do not write it down" then we should not say anything that God has not told us to speak like = "multiple Comings of the Son of God"

Have you never read: " Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God."

Do you know who HE said that too???

There has already been a first coming and there will be a second. That is multiple. There is nothing wrong with acknowledging that fact. I am not saying that there will be a third coming.

I do believe that the second is the final and will fulfil all of the prophesies that the first coming did not fulfill.

However I have a strong feeling (and I think I have the Spirit of the Lord) that many of the theories are going to need tweaking with these things are finally realized.

 

[RichMan]

There has already been a first coming and there will be a second. That is multiple. There is nothing wrong with acknowledging that fact. I am not saying that there will be a third coming.

I do believe that the second is the final and will fulfil all of the prophesies that the first coming did not fulfill.

However I have a strong feeling (and I think I have the Spirit of the Lord) that many of the theories are going to need tweaking with these things are finally realized.

Seems I may have misunderstood some of your previous post.
I thought you said there had been multiple first comings so there could be multiple seconds.
Would not have been as confusing if you had just said first and second.