One taken,one left. The rapture.
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That's BESIDE the point (the point being discussed in THAT post that you quoted, didn't "have to do" with the 70ad events which is recorded ONLY in the Lk21:12-24a,b SECTION of the Olivet Discourse, where v.12 says, "BUT BEFORE ALL THESE [all these beginning of birth pangs--that Matthew 24:4 STARTS OFF with]" (i.e. the SEALS at the START of the far-future TRIB YRS)... v.12 "BUT BEFORE ALL THESE," the events of 70ad must transpire BEFORE THOSE.
However, what was being discussed in THAT post (that you'd quoted), we were discussing the "eschatological" aspects (of the questions they'd posed), which have to do with (the parts regarding) "of THY COMING and of the END [SINGULAR] of the AGE [SINGULAR]" (what we know of as the eschatological matters--i.e. the far-future events, not the near-future events having to do with "70ad events" [recorded only in His response found in the LUKE 21:12-24a,b SECTION I just mentioned]; whereas Matt24:4 STARTS OFF with the "far-future" aspects / of His overall response; "the beginning of birth PANGS" / "SEALS" are future to "our Rapture," even... They are what "kick off" the TRIB yrs])
However, what was being discussed in THAT post (that you'd quoted), we were discussing the "eschatological" aspects (of the questions they'd posed), which have to do with (the parts regarding) "of THY COMING and of the END [SINGULAR] of the AGE [SINGULAR]" (what we know of as the eschatological matters--i.e. the far-future events, not the near-future events having to do with "70ad events" [recorded only in His response found in the LUKE 21:12-24a,b SECTION I just mentioned]; whereas Matt24:4 STARTS OFF with the "far-future" aspects / of His overall response; "the beginning of birth PANGS" / "SEALS" are future to "our Rapture," even... They are what "kick off" the TRIB yrs])
I left nothing out of anything. The scriptures teach about the coming of the Lord; singular, hence the “the coming” of the Lord.
No such phrase is found in the Bible as “the comings” of the Lord.
so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28
The coming of the Lord refers to His return from heaven to earth, in which He appears and is seen by every eye. He gathers His people at the resurrection and rapture, so that they are with Him in the clouds, and then He destroys the wicked who are left on earth.
Coming (noun) — Parousia Strong’s # G3952
- presence
- the coming, arrival, advent
- the future visible return from heaven of Jesus, to raise the dead, hold the last judgment, and set up formally and gloriously the kingdom of God
This is what the Bible teaches. The coming of the Lord is associated with the resurrection of the dead in Christ and the rapture, in which we are gathered together unto the Lord.
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
2 Thessalonians 2:1-8
But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.
1 Thessalonians 15:20-23
“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:29-31
- they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
“But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.
Mark 13:24-27
- Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.
The resurrection and rapture, where we are gathered together occurs at His coming.
JPT
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No. The "coming of the Lord" refers specifically to His Second Coming, just as Heb 9:28, which you quoted above, says.
At the Second coming, there will be the single resurrection of all believers (1 Cor 15:23) and Rev 20:4,5 SAYS that is the FIRST resurrection, which includes Tribulation martyrs, showing this FIRST resurrection to be the resurrection of the saved. ALL the saved.
This Second coming will end the Tribulation and then the King of kings will set up His Millennial Kingdom on earth, where ALL glorified believers will serve/reign with Him. Depending on their evaluation at the Bema (2 Cor 5:10).
It is AFTER the Millennial Reign that ALL unbelievers will be resurrected (minus glorified bodies) to appear at the GWT judgment, and after their evaluation, be cast into the lake of fire. Rev 20:11-15
At the Second coming, there will be the single resurrection of all believers (1 Cor 15:23) and Rev 20:4,5 SAYS that is the FIRST resurrection, which includes Tribulation martyrs, showing this FIRST resurrection to be the resurrection of the saved. ALL the saved.
This Second coming will end the Tribulation and then the King of kings will set up His Millennial Kingdom on earth, where ALL glorified believers will serve/reign with Him. Depending on their evaluation at the Bema (2 Cor 5:10).
It is AFTER the Millennial Reign that ALL unbelievers will be resurrected (minus glorified bodies) to appear at the GWT judgment, and after their evaluation, be cast into the lake of fire. Rev 20:11-15
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3 questions were asked in that chapter.
The third answer is the third answer.
The timeframe and setting changes to "before the flood".
Those are Jesus words.
"Before the flood"
"One taken/left"
"Watch and be ready."
The preflood/pretrib rapture.
Reread it. It is saying something you can not see for some reason.;
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
See that vs 36???
IT IS THE RAPTURE BIG TIME.
EVERY VERSE MIRRORING THE PRETRIB RAPTURE
The third answer is the third answer.
The timeframe and setting changes to "before the flood".
Those are Jesus words.
"Before the flood"
"One taken/left"
"Watch and be ready."
The preflood/pretrib rapture.
Reread it. It is saying something you can not see for some reason.;
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
See that vs 36???
IT IS THE RAPTURE BIG TIME.
EVERY VERSE MIRRORING THE PRETRIB RAPTURE
Wow, so many different opinions on the Rapture/Tribulation. All are reading the same Scripture but can't agree on their meaning. And I'm sure that all who are posting in this thread are sincere in their beliefs. But what good is the Bible if no one can understand it? What good is truth if no one can find it? You are all reading from the same Bible aren't you? So then why can't you agree as to what God's Words/Truth mean?
And, with so many different opinions/interpretations some of you have to be just wrong.
And, with so many different opinions/interpretations some of you have to be just wrong.
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NOTE the omissions of the pretrib rapture verses by postribbers.
It is appalling.
Comical actually.
Then their cunning tactics.
" show me a verse saying God takes believers to heaven"
I stick their noses in it.
They deny it.
Ironically there is NO VERSE in the bible....NOT ONE... pointing to a postrib rapture.
It is appalling.
Comical actually.
Then their cunning tactics.
" show me a verse saying God takes believers to heaven"
I stick their noses in it.
They deny it.
Ironically there is NO VERSE in the bible....NOT ONE... pointing to a postrib rapture.
Starts in mat 24:36.
Jesus changes timing and setting for his return.
It is vivid and clear.
But rev 14:14 is neither the rapture of 1 thes 4 nor the second coming on white horses.
That makes 3 total comings.
Only the last one does he touch the earth.
Yes more than one coming destroys every nit of their doctrine.
There really is no debate if the verses i bring forth are left honestly on the table.
It is a hands down fact the rapture is pretrib.
Ask them to show you a postrib rapture in the bible.
It is comical what they omit and reframe on that issue.
Jesus changes timing and setting for his return.
It is vivid and clear.
But rev 14:14 is neither the rapture of 1 thes 4 nor the second coming on white horses.
That makes 3 total comings.
Only the last one does he touch the earth.
Yes more than one coming destroys every nit of their doctrine.
There really is no debate if the verses i bring forth are left honestly on the table.
It is a hands down fact the rapture is pretrib.
Ask them to show you a postrib rapture in the bible.
It is comical what they omit and reframe on that issue.
"before the flood" no one "perished" or was "DESTROYED [G622] [ALL]"
In the Noah illustration (Jesus is using), the "one taken" was [and will be] "taken away IN JUDGMENT"... and the other "left" was [and will be] "left on the earth [in their mortal bodies, capable of reproducing / bearing children... in order to "[actively] FILL [FILLED] the [whole] earth" Dan2:35c (future) / Gen9:1 (past) / Matt24&Lk17 (future, using these "past" examples) ["the number of whom is at the sand of the sea" Rev20:8 in the earthly MK age, by the END of it]
...but ^ what was stated to/for/about "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" [US] (to/for/about whom the "Rapture [IN THE AIR]" SOLELY pertains, NOT to all other "saints" of all OTHER time periods), this [is said, instead]:
"...that, WHETHER WE MIGHT WATCH [same Greek word and context/meaning as IN VERSE 6 a few verses earlier] *OR* WHETHER WE MIGHT SLEEP [same Greek word and context/meaning as IN VERSE 6 a few verses earlier (NOT he "sleep" word meaning "sleep IN DEATH" that the PREVIOUS CHPT used!! NO!)], we should live together WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-WITH] Him."
Indeed there are distinctions that you are completely disregarding, in your quest to cling to your (incorrect) idea that the text sates, "before the flood they [Noah and crew] WERE TAKEN AWAY [i.e. like a "rapture"]"... which is NOT what the text is actually conveying, but rather what "your big idea" is IMPOSING upon the text.
I know... you love me.
[again, for the readers: I do not believe the "Noah" and "Lot" examples are illustrating / representing "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]"... but persons ('saints') who will be preserved THROUGH the tribulation period, and who will remain on the earth (i.e. be the ones "left") at the time of Christ's Second Coming to the earth, TO ENTER (as the "BLESSED") the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age IN THEIR MORTAL BODIES (capable of reproducing / bearing children--the ONLY ones at that point who will have that capacity--the "resurrected saints" will NOT have that capacity, though they will also be [resurrected IN TIME FOR to be also] present to enjoy the MK age)... and due to the "and DESTROYED [G622] ALL" that occurs then, NO "UNBELIEVERS" will be "BLESSED" to ENTER the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age... however, the children [/grandchildren, etc] born to them will not be "BORN automatically RIGHTEOUS" and it is THESE ONLY who will be susceptible to "death" in the MK age, which will be MUCH MORE RARE and reserved ONLY for the rebellious (in the MK age)]
In the Noah illustration (Jesus is using), the "one taken" was [and will be] "taken away IN JUDGMENT"... and the other "left" was [and will be] "left on the earth [in their mortal bodies, capable of reproducing / bearing children... in order to "[actively] FILL [FILLED] the [whole] earth" Dan2:35c (future) / Gen9:1 (past) / Matt24&Lk17 (future, using these "past" examples) ["the number of whom is at the sand of the sea" Rev20:8 in the earthly MK age, by the END of it]
...but ^ what was stated to/for/about "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" [US] (to/for/about whom the "Rapture [IN THE AIR]" SOLELY pertains, NOT to all other "saints" of all OTHER time periods), this [is said, instead]:
"...that, WHETHER WE MIGHT WATCH [same Greek word and context/meaning as IN VERSE 6 a few verses earlier] *OR* WHETHER WE MIGHT SLEEP [same Greek word and context/meaning as IN VERSE 6 a few verses earlier (NOT he "sleep" word meaning "sleep IN DEATH" that the PREVIOUS CHPT used!! NO!)], we should live together WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-WITH] Him."
Indeed there are distinctions that you are completely disregarding, in your quest to cling to your (incorrect) idea that the text sates, "before the flood they [Noah and crew] WERE TAKEN AWAY [i.e. like a "rapture"]"... which is NOT what the text is actually conveying, but rather what "your big idea" is IMPOSING upon the text.
I know... you love me.
[again, for the readers: I do not believe the "Noah" and "Lot" examples are illustrating / representing "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]"... but persons ('saints') who will be preserved THROUGH the tribulation period, and who will remain on the earth (i.e. be the ones "left") at the time of Christ's Second Coming to the earth, TO ENTER (as the "BLESSED") the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age IN THEIR MORTAL BODIES (capable of reproducing / bearing children--the ONLY ones at that point who will have that capacity--the "resurrected saints" will NOT have that capacity, though they will also be [resurrected IN TIME FOR to be also] present to enjoy the MK age)... and due to the "and DESTROYED [G622] ALL" that occurs then, NO "UNBELIEVERS" will be "BLESSED" to ENTER the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age... however, the children [/grandchildren, etc] born to them will not be "BORN automatically RIGHTEOUS" and it is THESE ONLY who will be susceptible to "death" in the MK age, which will be MUCH MORE RARE and reserved ONLY for the rebellious (in the MK age)]
Noah goes into the ark pretrib
Nobody dies pretrib.
Yes.
Mirroring the pretrib rapture
it doesn’t require interpretation is the issue it requires belief of what’s there. What’s there doesn’t contradict itself it’s consistent the interpreting is where the issue is
one issue is “ the rapture “ isn’t even in the Bible it’s a concept people invented later by interpreting things. Trying to describe the gathering of Gods people in the end when Christ returns. But it’s a mad up term and really a made up contradiction.
to be honest no where in the Bible is there any verse that says God is going to come and gather his people before the end of the world.
To believe that we have to actually reject what the Lord said and create interpretation string together irrelevant concepts that don’t say it and get mad when anyone believes what’s clear and plain
See Jesus tells them of all these thkngs coming in the future and calls it tribulation. Then he says this
“But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.
But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.”
Mark 13:23-27 KJV
He literally tells them they will go through these tribulations and earns them not to lose heart or faith when they do and afterward he will return and gather his people.
there is nothing in scripture that’s going to change this it’s only interpretations of those who refuse to hear it that cause any conflict. The issue is they were taught before by someone that God wouldn’t let his church go through tribulation.
This is part of what he was telling them they would definately go through and called it tribulation
“And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you: For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.M
And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet.
For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows.
But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.
And the gospel must first be published among all nations.
But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.
Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.”
Mark 13:5-13 KJV
then He says after explaining all hear tribulations they must go through and endure to the end “ after that tribulation I will return and gather my people from heaven and earth.
that’s what people call the rapture being caught up with Jesus and his people after they endure tribulation and trials in this world
It’s an invented argument that requires us to reject what Jesus says about it and he’s the One who’s coming to gather them who he warned ofnthe tribulation in the world they would surely face
“Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.”
Acts 14:22 KJV
it’s just part of the world of we look around we can see what he said happens even still today and began way back when the church was slaughtered by Rome today there are thousands of Christians going through much tribulation and others going through less tribulation it’s because we don’t belong to the world
but the “ rapture “ where the church will never go through tribulation is an invention of long ago pastors who wanted to create “ a better truth “
in complete contradiction to what Jesus the truth said about things. The Bible doesn’t need is to interpret it we need to read and believe it and share it as is that will bring Christians to the same understanding but it doesn’t happen in places like this designed for discussion there’s always going to be different ideas but it’s because few accept whats there plainly
one issue is “ the rapture “ isn’t even in the Bible it’s a concept people invented later by interpreting things. Trying to describe the gathering of Gods people in the end when Christ returns. But it’s a mad up term and really a made up contradiction.
to be honest no where in the Bible is there any verse that says God is going to come and gather his people before the end of the world.
To believe that we have to actually reject what the Lord said and create interpretation string together irrelevant concepts that don’t say it and get mad when anyone believes what’s clear and plain
See Jesus tells them of all these thkngs coming in the future and calls it tribulation. Then he says this
“But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.
But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.”
Mark 13:23-27 KJV
He literally tells them they will go through these tribulations and earns them not to lose heart or faith when they do and afterward he will return and gather his people.
there is nothing in scripture that’s going to change this it’s only interpretations of those who refuse to hear it that cause any conflict. The issue is they were taught before by someone that God wouldn’t let his church go through tribulation.
This is part of what he was telling them they would definately go through and called it tribulation
“And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you: For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.M
And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet.
For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows.
But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.
And the gospel must first be published among all nations.
But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.
Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.”
Mark 13:5-13 KJV
then He says after explaining all hear tribulations they must go through and endure to the end “ after that tribulation I will return and gather my people from heaven and earth.
that’s what people call the rapture being caught up with Jesus and his people after they endure tribulation and trials in this world
It’s an invented argument that requires us to reject what Jesus says about it and he’s the One who’s coming to gather them who he warned ofnthe tribulation in the world they would surely face
“Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.”
Acts 14:22 KJV
it’s just part of the world of we look around we can see what he said happens even still today and began way back when the church was slaughtered by Rome today there are thousands of Christians going through much tribulation and others going through less tribulation it’s because we don’t belong to the world
but the “ rapture “ where the church will never go through tribulation is an invention of long ago pastors who wanted to create “ a better truth “
in complete contradiction to what Jesus the truth said about things. The Bible doesn’t need is to interpret it we need to read and believe it and share it as is that will bring Christians to the same understanding but it doesn’t happen in places like this designed for discussion there’s always going to be different ideas but it’s because few accept whats there plainly
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