1 John 5:9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
One taken,one left. The rapture.
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1 John 5:9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
The interpretation you are presenting is that heaven is literally a physical place that can be travelled to by conventional means. And that Noah's ark went to heaven.
Is heaven 15 cubits above the highest mountain? Do astronauts go to (through?) heaven?
If you believe that the rapture is like Noah's ark, does that mean that the rapture also takes 40 days to reach heaven? Wouldn't that make your position at least mid-trib?
What you do not yet realize is that you have framed these two events incorrectly.
The 'tribulation' in these two events is what these two men had to deal with before-and-up-to the point of 'finality'.
What happened after these events is 'wrath' / 'judgment'.
Hence, these events are post-tribulation and pre-wrath / pre-judgment.
Anyone read the OT? Anyone read about how GOD sees those who won't go into battle or those who see the 'enemy' as too scary? There is no guessing as to where God stands on these issues nor is there any guessing on what how He sees those that do.
1 Samuel 25:28 I pray thee, forgive the trespass of thine handmaid: for the LORD will certainly make my lord a sure house; because my lord fighteth the battles of the LORD, and evil hath not been found in thee all thy days.
Make A SURE HOUSE because he 'FIGHTETH THE BATTLES OF THE LORD'. THAT'S A GOOD THING.
I'm just saying since THE LORD NEVER CHANGES, we have lots of examples of what MAKES GOD FEEL happy and what makes GOD mad. Maybe we should look at actual examples and less at parables especially since we know 'some' are not getting them right.
Numbers 32:5 Wherefore, said they, if we have found grace in thy sight, let this land be given unto thy servants for a possession, and bring us not over Jordan.
Numbers 32:6 And Moses said unto the children of Gad and to the children of Reuben, Shall your brethren go to war, and shall ye sit here?
Numbers 32:7 And wherefore discourage ye the heart of the children of Israel from going over into the land which the LORD hath given them?
Numbers 32:8 Thus did your fathers, when I sent them from Kadeshbarnea to see the land.
Numbers 32:9 For when they went up unto the valley of Eshcol, and saw the land, they discouraged the heart of the children of Israel, that they should not go into the land which the LORD had given them.
Numbers 32:10 And the LORD's anger was kindled the same time, and he sware, saying,
Numbers 32:11 Surely none of the men that came up out of Egypt, from twenty years old and upward, shall see the land which I sware unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob; because they have not wholly followed me:
Numbers 32:12 Save Caleb the son of Jephunneh the Kenezite, and Joshua the son of Nun: for they have wholly followed the LORD.
Numbers 32:13 And the LORD's anger was kindled against Israel, and he made them wander in the wilderness forty years, until all the generation, that had done evil in the sight of the LORD, was consumed.
14 And, behold, ye are risen up in your fathers' stead, an increase of sinful men, to augment yet the fierce anger of the LORD toward Israel.
Numbers 32:20 And Moses said unto them, If ye will do this thing, if ye will go armed before the LORD to war,
21 And will go all of you armed over Jordan before the LORD, until he hath driven out his enemies from before him,
22 And the land be subdued before the LORD: then afterward ye shall return, and be guiltless before the LORD, and before Israel; and this land shall be your possession before the LORD.
23 But if ye will not do so, behold, ye have sinned against the LORD: and be sure your sin will find you out.
1 Samuel 25:28 I pray thee, forgive the trespass of thine handmaid: for the LORD will certainly make my lord a sure house; because my lord fighteth the battles of the LORD, and evil hath not been found in thee all thy days.
Make A SURE HOUSE because he 'FIGHTETH THE BATTLES OF THE LORD'. THAT'S A GOOD THING.
I'm just saying since THE LORD NEVER CHANGES, we have lots of examples of what MAKES GOD FEEL happy and what makes GOD mad. Maybe we should look at actual examples and less at parables especially since we know 'some' are not getting them right.
Numbers 32:5 Wherefore, said they, if we have found grace in thy sight, let this land be given unto thy servants for a possession, and bring us not over Jordan.
Numbers 32:6 And Moses said unto the children of Gad and to the children of Reuben, Shall your brethren go to war, and shall ye sit here?
Numbers 32:7 And wherefore discourage ye the heart of the children of Israel from going over into the land which the LORD hath given them?
Numbers 32:8 Thus did your fathers, when I sent them from Kadeshbarnea to see the land.
Numbers 32:9 For when they went up unto the valley of Eshcol, and saw the land, they discouraged the heart of the children of Israel, that they should not go into the land which the LORD had given them.
Numbers 32:10 And the LORD's anger was kindled the same time, and he sware, saying,
Numbers 32:11 Surely none of the men that came up out of Egypt, from twenty years old and upward, shall see the land which I sware unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob; because they have not wholly followed me:
Numbers 32:12 Save Caleb the son of Jephunneh the Kenezite, and Joshua the son of Nun: for they have wholly followed the LORD.
Numbers 32:13 And the LORD's anger was kindled against Israel, and he made them wander in the wilderness forty years, until all the generation, that had done evil in the sight of the LORD, was consumed.
14 And, behold, ye are risen up in your fathers' stead, an increase of sinful men, to augment yet the fierce anger of the LORD toward Israel.
Numbers 32:20 And Moses said unto them, If ye will do this thing, if ye will go armed before the LORD to war,
21 And will go all of you armed over Jordan before the LORD, until he hath driven out his enemies from before him,
22 And the land be subdued before the LORD: then afterward ye shall return, and be guiltless before the LORD, and before Israel; and this land shall be your possession before the LORD.
23 But if ye will not do so, behold, ye have sinned against the LORD: and be sure your sin will find you out.
Judges 5:12 Awake, awake, Deborah: awake, awake, utter a song: arise, Barak, and lead thy captivity captive, thou son of Abinoam.
13 Then he made him that remaineth have dominion over the nobles among the people: the LORD made me have dominion over the mighty.
14 Out of Ephraim was there a root of them against Amalek; after thee, Benjamin, among thy people; out of Machir came down governors, and out of Zebulun they that handle the pen of the writer.
15 And the princes of Issachar were with Deborah; even Issachar, and also Barak: he was sent on foot into the valley. For the divisions of Reuben there were great thoughts of heart.
16 Why abodest thou among the sheepfolds, to hear the bleatings of the flocks? For the divisions of Reuben there were great searchings of heart.
17 Gilead abode beyond Jordan: and why did Dan remain in ships? Asher continued on the sea shore, and abode in his breaches.
18 Zebulun and Naphtali were a people that jeoparded their lives unto the death in the high places of the field.
19 The kings came and fought, then fought the kings of Canaan in Taanach by the waters of Megiddo; they took no gain of money.
20 They fought from heaven; the stars in their courses fought against Sisera.
21 The river of Kishon swept them away, that ancient river, the river Kishon. O my soul, thou hast trodden down strength.
22 Then were the horsehoofs broken by the means of the pransings, the pransings of their mighty ones.
23 Curse ye Meroz, said the angel of the LORD, curse ye bitterly the inhabitants thereof; because they came not to the help of the LORD, to the help of the LORD against the mighty.
24 Blessed above women shall Jael the wife of Heber the Kenite be, blessed shall she be above women in the tent.
25 He asked water, and she gave him milk; she brought forth butter in a lordly dish.
26 She put her hand to the nail, and her right hand to the workmen's hammer; and with the hammer she smote Sisera, she smote off his head, when she had pierced and stricken through his temples.
27 At her feet he bowed, he fell, he lay down: at her feet he bowed, he fell: where he bowed, there he fell down dead.
28 The mother of Sisera looked out at a window, and cried through the lattice, Why is his chariot so long in coming? why tarry the wheels of his chariots?
29 Her wise ladies answered her, yea, she returned answer to herself,
30 Have they not sped? have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two; to Sisera a prey of divers colours, a prey of divers colours of needlework, of divers colours of needlework on both sides, meet for the necks of them that take the spoil?
31 So let all thine enemies perish, O LORD: but let them that love him be as the sun when he goeth forth in his might. And the land had rest forty years.
13 Then he made him that remaineth have dominion over the nobles among the people: the LORD made me have dominion over the mighty.
14 Out of Ephraim was there a root of them against Amalek; after thee, Benjamin, among thy people; out of Machir came down governors, and out of Zebulun they that handle the pen of the writer.
15 And the princes of Issachar were with Deborah; even Issachar, and also Barak: he was sent on foot into the valley. For the divisions of Reuben there were great thoughts of heart.
16 Why abodest thou among the sheepfolds, to hear the bleatings of the flocks? For the divisions of Reuben there were great searchings of heart.
17 Gilead abode beyond Jordan: and why did Dan remain in ships? Asher continued on the sea shore, and abode in his breaches.
18 Zebulun and Naphtali were a people that jeoparded their lives unto the death in the high places of the field.
19 The kings came and fought, then fought the kings of Canaan in Taanach by the waters of Megiddo; they took no gain of money.
20 They fought from heaven; the stars in their courses fought against Sisera.
21 The river of Kishon swept them away, that ancient river, the river Kishon. O my soul, thou hast trodden down strength.
22 Then were the horsehoofs broken by the means of the pransings, the pransings of their mighty ones.
23 Curse ye Meroz, said the angel of the LORD, curse ye bitterly the inhabitants thereof; because they came not to the help of the LORD, to the help of the LORD against the mighty.
24 Blessed above women shall Jael the wife of Heber the Kenite be, blessed shall she be above women in the tent.
25 He asked water, and she gave him milk; she brought forth butter in a lordly dish.
26 She put her hand to the nail, and her right hand to the workmen's hammer; and with the hammer she smote Sisera, she smote off his head, when she had pierced and stricken through his temples.
27 At her feet he bowed, he fell, he lay down: at her feet he bowed, he fell: where he bowed, there he fell down dead.
28 The mother of Sisera looked out at a window, and cried through the lattice, Why is his chariot so long in coming? why tarry the wheels of his chariots?
29 Her wise ladies answered her, yea, she returned answer to herself,
30 Have they not sped? have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two; to Sisera a prey of divers colours, a prey of divers colours of needlework, of divers colours of needlework on both sides, meet for the necks of them that take the spoil?
31 So let all thine enemies perish, O LORD: but let them that love him be as the sun when he goeth forth in his might. And the land had rest forty years.
Anytime you want to make a point, then please present the scripture and the point you are making about that scripture.
We know what is “clear” about Revelation 14:14 nor the point you are making.
What we do know is clear, is that the resurrection and rapture, occur at His coming.
Posting some other scripture won’t change that truth.
The Bible teaches that the resurrection and rapture occur at His coming.
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
1 Thessalonians 4:15
The Bible teaches that the antichrist is destroyed at His coming.
And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
2 Thessalonians 2:8
JPT
What is it you don’t understand about the resurrection and rapture taking place at His coming?
What is t you don’t understand about the antichrist being destroyed at His coming?
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
1 Thessalonians 4:15
The Bible teaches that the antichrist is destroyed at His coming.
And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
2 Thessalonians 2:8
JPT
Both sides of the debate believe 2thes....ALL OF IT.
We all believe it.
And thanks for illustrating that that is NOT WHAT HAPPENS in rev 14:14.
You have just vividly shown Jesus comes more than once.
Thanks.
To recap:
"And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven." - Acts 1:9-11 KJV
Acts 1 discusses "like manner" which would basically say "from clouds"
"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." - 1 Thes 4:16-17 KJV
1 Thes 4 discusses that the Lord descends from heaven, and at that time those in Christ will be caught up in cloud in the air.
Mat 24 and Luke 17 clearly show the "one taken" is talking about destruction, not a protective skyward removal. Even if we were to look at OT scripture on being protected by God, such as Psalms 143:9, there is no indication that it is talking about a skyward removal. It is consistent with scripture to interpret this type of protection or hiding in the same way that Jesus was protected and hidden from the murderous Pharisees in John 8:59.
"Cause me to hear thy lovingkindness in the morning; for in thee do I trust: cause me to know the way wherein I should walk; for I lift up my soul unto thee. Deliver me, O Lord, from mine enemies: I flee unto thee to hide me." - Psalms 143:8-9 KJV
"Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by." - John 8:59 KJV
That type of hiding is also consistent with Proverbs 27:12.
"A prudent man foreseeth the evil, and hideth himself; but the simple pass on, and are punished." - Proverbs 27:12 KJV
Prudence.
"Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. [...] In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;" - Ephesians 1:2&7-8 KJV
There are many examples where God protects those in danger without the need for a skyward removal from the scene.
In Matthew 25, the parable starts with a description of maidens where "...five of them were wise, and five were foolish." (Mat 25:2). The fruits of wisdom was salvation (and from Eph 1:8, we see where that wisdom comes from), and the fruits of foolishness ends with being cast out into outer darkness. You could place this parable relative to judgement. You could also place this parable relative to the wedding referenced in Rev 19.
"And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs." - Rev 14:14-20 KJV
Rev 14:14
1) The reaping is very clearly about the grapes of wrath. You could argue that there are multiple kinds of reaping going on at the same time. You could make an argument to tie it in with the parable of the wheat and tares. I don't get where you are coming from. Make your case!
2) Yes, Christ is seen on a white cloud, and yes Christ uses a sickle on the earth. Is this a figurative sickle? Is this a literal sickle? How big is the sickle? Did He ever actually descend to earth? Get off His cloud at this point? If Christ didn't descend from the cloud, then 1 Thes 4 can't apply.
Rev 19
"the church in heaven"
The whole church? Which verse? It's not there.
"the bride becomes the wife in heaven"
No, actually. Rev 19 notes that the marriage has come, it notes the starting of the marriage process but does not specifically declare that the wedding is completed in Rev 19.
"Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready." - Revelation 19:7 KJV
"saints are already mounted on horses"
Rev 19:14. Yes. And? Are you suggesting this is the entirety of all saints? If so, why?
Would you kindly expand on your use of these chapters and explain how you feel they support your position?
Acts 1
1 Thes 4
Mat 25
Rev 14
Rev 19
I assume you are postrib adherent.
I have never see you make your case.
But yes, lets take " like manner" and compare it to rev 19 second coming on horses.
Show me like manner their vs like manner of a solo Jesus in the air.
Pretrib rapture model would mirror "like manner" vividly.
How do you tie it in?...assuming you believe the rapture is at rev 19 with the white horses.
Amen. The Second Coming...
Revelation
19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
19:12 His eyes [were] as a flame of fire, and on his head [were] many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Yet, you have NEVER made your case. I'm waiting for a verse that shows Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.
That's NOT what Jesus was referring to. He clearly was referring to lifestyles just before the flood and lifestyle just before He comes back at the Second Advent.
How anyone would come to the conclusion that Jesus had a rapture trip to heaven in mind is just absurd.
It isn't about Jesus in the air or being tour guide for glorified believers going to heaven.
Not even close. Because there is no "pretrib rapture". Anywhere in the Bible. Which you know full well.
There is always one or two Scriptures that prove the truth, and only the blind with ignore it or try to change it:
When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the LORD thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice. (Deut 4)
God's people will be in tribulation of the last days for their good, to turn us to God and purify our hearts.
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world. (John 16)
Jesus went through tribulation unto the end, and it made Him perfect to become the author of eternal salvation for them who obey Him and do the same as Him. The servant is not above the Master, and if they did so to Him, then they will also do to his people. (Matthew 10)
The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.
Tribulation is for perfecting of the saints.
Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God...For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.
Tribulation is promised to saints, it must happen to help us into the kingdom of God. (Acts 14)
And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand. (Dan 12)
End of days tribulation is for the saints, to purify us.
Why would God snatch His people out of the way of that which is promised to us to help us draw nigher andnigher to Him in purity and faith? The proper understanding of the saint is to be prepare for any and all tribulation that will come in this life, to overcome and rejoice in it, not to avoid and be fearful of it.
But the fearful, and unbelieving...
It is not wrong to pray for peace and good things in this life, even as Jesus did in the garden, but we should not be begging God to keep us from that which is intended for evil by the devil, but God works all such things to our good for our souls' sake.
For they intended evil against thee: they imagined a mischievous device, which they are not able to perform.
Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man.
The saints are to have understanding of who the beast is at the time of the beast. How important is it to know something about which we will have nothing to do? God doesn't write Scripture just to share knowledge. Knowledge of Scripture is for doing His will, and to be prepared for trials and tribulation to overcome them.
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth. (Rev 14)
Here in the last hour before the Lord's return, is where the saints are to be patient in tribulation and continue to keep His commandments by the faith of Jesus. When that last hour is here on earth, that is when the saints are to be strongest in His word.
And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience...Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer...
I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
In the end, it is impossible for any Christian to avoid the tribulation of the last days, because we have been in the tribulation of he last days since the resurrection of Christ, and many antichrists have already comes since the beginning of Christ's NT on earth.
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
When Jesus told them this generation, He meant it; otherwise, He would have been lying to them in the name of 'prophetic' mystery.
That very generation of Jesus' days on earth would be the beginning generation of the great tribulation of the last days, with many antichrists coming out seeking to deceive and destroy the faith of the saints.
The question is not about when the great tribulation of the last days will begin, but only about when it will end with the coming of the Lord a second time, to receive His own unto Himself in the air with the resurrection of His church, both the dead and them alive in Christ.
And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
The elect saints that endure unto the end come out of great tribulation washed clean and white as snow, not before it.
My position with Revelation is that it is at least partly a mystery and the most we can do is test ideas against scripture to see what is 1) necessary or unnecessary, 2) possible or impossible, and 3) compelling or uncompelling
Using that system, it is most important to first determine whether an idea contains a logical contradiction. Scripture is necessarily true, but the interpreted context derived from any particular passage may be fallible. If we can establish a logical contradiction from derived contexts it means our derived context is incorrect.
There are post-trib models consistent with scripture, therefore it is possible. If we can demonstrate that it is the only possible interpretation, it would follow that it is necessarily true.
In the simplest terms Jesus ascended and met up with the clouds. It would follow that a return in a "like manner" entails leaving the clouds and descending to the earth. Does Rev 14:14 describe a descent? No, therefore the depiction of Christ in clouds is a moot point.
Under your template that only the great tribulation of the end, will cleanse us .
Then Jesus died in vain and all those that died ten days ago are lost since they never saw the great tribulation or the antichrist.
In fact i know of several strong, sold out believers ,who have passed away and had very blessed lives and very little tribulation
See this is a trap. A postribber trap, that is almost a second religion, declaring that only running from cave to cave with the ac hot on your heels, is pleasing and cleansing, making one worthy or unworthy.
A different gospel.
Your opinions are just amazing. Really. But in a sad way. You are head over heels in your fantasy trip to heaven after getting a glorified body. Just read the stuff from the "rapture forum" to see the fervent, feverish pitch of those who just can hardly wait to be glorified and then the exhilarating trip to heaven with Jesus as tour guide.
Give me a break please. Pretribbers hardly ever speak about resurrection. Instead, it's all about "the rapture", whispered in soft dulcet tones.
Still making up stuff, I see.
Neither the resurrection or the "changed in the twinkling of an eye" is 'gospel'.
Rev 14 :14, Is by no means the rapture, nor have i ever depicted it as such.
However, In that dynamic, of, " like manner", it is refreshing to just read it and let it say what it says.
IOW, I don't need a solo Jesus in the clouds, to be ridiculously transformed into a million horses blackening the sky, with a war mission ,killing and slaughtering millions with blinding light, and possibly millions of saints WITH HIM on horses, and a sword in Jesus mouth.
I don't need such radical reframing of "like manner"(a solo Jesus all by himself)
Do you?
Iow the pretrib position ONLY , mirrors " like manner".
Total no brainer