Can Christ disobey the command given by the LORD?

[DanielLL]

If you MUST quote from the catholic Bible, please note that is where the quote comes from.

No, I took it from the KJV.

Christ does nothing between His ascension to the right hand of the Father and the battle of Armageddon

I didn't say He couldn't do nothing, but that He is to "sit until". He can do things while sitting at the Right Hand of the Father.

It is only AFTER all of this that Christ will make His enemies His footstool

-He made His enemies His footstool when the "seventh angel sounded":

Revelation 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Revelation 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

-When Israel fled into the wilderness, after they saw the abomination of desolation:

Revelation 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

-After the beast was cast down, the mark of the beast started:

Revelation 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

-Even tho the beast is on the earth, it is already fallen, you could say at His feet:

Revelation 14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

-After death the judgement:

Revelation 18:10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

 

[Gideon300]

I have 2 questions first is weren't the graves opened when Christ resurrected and didn't they rise with His body?

And what words are written in Revelation 4 stating 'the church is taken'?

The graves of many saints were opened when Jesus died. They appeared to the Jews. There is no reference to the church in Revelation 4.

 

[Gideon300]

2 Esdras 13:24 Know this therefore, that they which be left behind are more blessed than they that be dead.



Has Jesus destroyed satan already, our will He destroy satan at his second coming? Make up your mind:

James 1:8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

Esdras is not scripture. Anyone who thinks this life is better than the next has a real problem. It's also pre-Christianity.

Lord Jesus has defeated Satan. Satan has not been destroyed. God has given the church the job of casting Satan down (Revelation 12). Lord Jesus was revealed to destroy the works of the devil. That is also the work of the church, as we are led by the Lord. Satan will be thrown into the lake of fire.

 

[TMS]

the secret rapture is so wrong...
Jesus will come in Glory as the King of Kings and the judgement is finished.
He is our high priest saving all that He can but the day will come when it is finished. He that is righteous will be righteous still and he that is unjust be unjust still..

Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

No second chances, once probation closes it is finished.

 

[Gideon300]

the secret rapture is so wrong...
Jesus will come in Glory as the King of Kings and the judgement is finished.
He is our high priest saving all that He can but the day will come when it is finished. He that is righteous will be righteous still and he that is unjust be unjust still..

Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

No second chances, once probation closes it is finished.

Everyone has an opinion based on their understanding of scripture. The reality is that every point of view cannot be right. One day we will find out.

 

[TMS]

The marriage takes place previous to his second coming; for we are commanded to be in readiness for our Lord when he shall return from the wedding. “Let your loins be girded about, and ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their Lord when he shall return from the wedding.” Luke 12:35, 36. The next verse is likewise so much in point that we must transcribe that also: “Blessed are those servants whom the Lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them;” the evangelist might have added, at the marriage supper of the Lamb. We will refer to one more text which shows no less distinctly that the marriage of the Lamb, or his reception of his kingdom takes place previous to his second coming. To correct certain misapprehensions of the Jews, about the setting up of the kingdom of God, Christ, likening himself to a nobleman, said: “A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom and to return. Luke 19:12. “And it came to pass that when he was returned, having received the kingdom,” etc. Verse 15. Who can doubt that by the nobleman’s going into a far country, is here meant the ascension of Christ from this earth into heaven, and that the returning, is his second coming? But he does not return till after he has received the kingdom.

To be still more definite on this point, he not only receives the kingdom previous to his coming, but almost immediately preceding it. He does not of course leave his present position on the throne of his Father, till the time comes for him to take his own throne; but so long as he occupies his present position, he performs the office of priest, and mediator for the human race. When therefore he takes his own throne probation ends. But between the ending of probation, and the second coming of Christ, but a short space of time can elapse; not more than a year, according to Isaiah 63:4. Furthermore, the saints are to be guests at the marriage supper; but they are not gathered till the Son of man shall appear and send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, to gather them from the four winds; from one end of heaven to the other.

The marriage of the Lamb takes place after the close of probation; and the last work of Christ before this event, his last service as mediator is the finishing up of the ministration of the heavenly Sanctuary, in which he now ministers at the right hand of the throne of the majesty in the heavens. Hebrews 8. Looking back to the type we find that the last service of the sanctuary, called its cleansing, was the putting away, in figure, of the sins of the people. Leviticus 16. Ezekiel 45:18.
The law of types bids us look for such a work, in fact, as the closing act of the ministration of the sanctuary in heaven. But this work involves an examination of character. In the book of God’s remembrance, is found a record of all lives; and men are to be judged at last, by those things which are written in the books. Revelation 20:12. The Scriptures many times speak of sins’ being blotted out. They speak of it, too, not as figurative, but literal. Peter was not dealing in figures, when he said, “Repent ye, therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord,” etc. Acts 3:19. These sins must therefore have been recorded in the book of God’s remembrance, or in that book out of which men are to be judged according to their deeds. Repentance on our part will cause them to be blotted out at a certain time, namely, the time of refreshing from the presence of the Lord. But the putting away or blotting out of sins, is the very work that constitutes the cleansing of the sanctuary. And this is the last work that is accomplished before Christ lays off his priestly robe for his kingly vesture. It will be further seen, on a moment’s consideration, that a certain decision must be passed upon mankind, before the coming of Christ; for when he appears, of all the living multitudes, those only who are his are to be changed and translated; and of all the dead, those only who have died in him are to have part in the resurrection. How is it to be determined who these are? Omniscience, to be sure, would have no difficulty in knowing; but he has seen fit to reveal to us the fact that a book of records is kept, and that it is by that record that men are to be judged, and by that record their characters determined. An investigation of these records must therefore take place previous to the coming of Christ. The sins of those who have repented will be blotted out, and their names retained in the Lamb’s book of life; while the sins of those who have not sought forgiveness and pardon, will stand against them, and their names will be blotted out of the book of life. This investigation of character, this blotting out of sins, is, as we have seen, the last work performed in the heavenly sanctuary previous to the close of probation, and the marriage of the Lamb. This is the coming in of the King to see the guests - to determine, as characters pass in review before the great tribunal of heaven, who they are, who are worthy of translation, and a part in the first resurrection when the angels are sent forth to bring those who are prepared, to the marriage supper of the Lamb.

 

[TMS]

Everyone has an opinion based on their understanding of scripture. The reality is that every point of view cannot be right. One day we will find out.

true every point can't be right but we can often see what points are wrong.

When Satan told Eve she would not surely die, he was lying and she did die as a result.
Many lies are being speed by Satan today to confuse and if possible keep us from being saved.

The second chance doctrine is a lie. Be careful, Once Jesus takes off the priestly robes probation will close and He will put on the kingly robes and come to take His bride.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

 

[kleronomos]

when has war ever conquered love?

There is a war going on in heaven until Satan is kicked out. SO to be 'pre trib raptured' means Christ leaves (disobeys God command) and picks up the Church before the war ends IN HEAVEN.

 

[posthuman]

There is a war going on in heaven until Satan is kicked out. SO to be 'pre trib raptured' means Christ leaves (disobeys God command) and picks up the Church before the war ends IN HEAVEN.

oh; that part.
what do you do with this:

I saw Satan fall from heaven like lightning ​

(Luke 10:18) ​

? ​

​

that's past-tense btw
and Christ was there; He's not describing a vision. He was sitting on His throne; He sent Michael.

and regarding Revelation 12:7? isn't that past-tense too? there "was" war in heaven?
and Jews play fast and loose with time - they do not write narratives in sequential order; that's all over the Bible. look at the book of Judges for example -- not chronological. not at all.



idc about your eschatological argument. i don't understand the future; 1st or 2nd to admit that.
but we can still talk
it's how i will eventually understand

i happen to think the dragon was cast out of heaven before Genesis 1:2
i can give half a dozen passages for evidence if you want

 

[kleronomos]

First, off the context of Pslams 110:1 is not saying Jesus can't move from a place. Jesus made His enemies His footstool at the Resurrection For HE rose as King of kings and Lord of lords. Jesus came to Peter in Acts, Jesus came to Paul in Acts. Jesus is not limited other than in context to HIS Body.
When Jesus said it is finished Jesus rose from the dead and was seen 40 days on the earth. Then He was taken up into Heaven In addition, if we read the Word of God Jesu was standing at the death of Stephen, Oops I guess he was to remain sitting?

This idea of Jesus having to be forced to sit on a throne is ridiculous. Jesus is in perfect line with the will of the Father. The rapture is appearing of Christ in the air the return is Christ coming to the earth at the mount. of Olives.

It is just another THING that takes what is written and says

'its ok if we tell everyone 'THAT ISN'T WHAT HE MEANT, IT IS ONLY WHAT HE SAID aka what is written'.


ME, I DON'T BRING ANYTHING TO THE DISCUSSION. IF GOD SAID 'SIT UNTIL', I TAKE THAT UNDER ALL CIRCUMSTANCES TO MEAN SIT UNTIL. I could of course be like Cain and just do it my way, but GOD wasn't very happy with that, so I don't. If you said God returns and there is an event that takes place before His feet hit the mount, I couldn't agree more. I you didn't, then I wish you would have.

 

[kleronomos]

Was Paul lying?

1 Corinthians 15:8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

The context is returning to earth to rule and reign in Jerusalem.

No, he wasn't. What was written? Same thing Paul was doing though, kicking against the pricks.

Acts 9:3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:

4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.

8 And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus.

9 And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink.

 

[kleronomos]

I could be wrong, but my radar is a bit up, that you may not believe in the Trinity?
Also,
What do the Lampstands represent, and where are they in Rev 4?

I absolutely believe in the trinity. Where would we be today without the Holy Spirit? Why is my question met with another question? WHERE IS IT WRITTEN? It is a simple question because it is either WRITTEN or it is MADE UP. Either we take Gods words as the TRUTH or we bring in our own words and try and make those truth. Those are the only choices.

It is written or Hath God said? I don't believe people are even aware of what they are doing. I am going to point these things out until WHAT IS WRITTEN is what is taught.

 

[kleronomos]

the secret rapture is so wrong...
Jesus will come in Glory as the King of Kings and the judgement is finished.
He is our high priest saving all that He can but the day will come when it is finished. He that is righteous will be righteous still and he that is unjust be unjust still..

Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

No second chances, once probation closes it is finished.

I just figured it out today the question of why PRE TRIB disturbs me as much as it does and it is because IT STEALS the GLORY away from CHRISTS RETURN AS KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS and makes it about the church. It takes all the time we could be coming together to work out the Scriptures and keeps us in this debate THAT VOIDS THE WORDS OF GOD ALL OVER THE PLACE. I am tired of being made to feel stupid because I can't see it and now I am going after every verse they use and PROVING OVER AND OVER AGAIN HOW it is nothing but lies from beginning to end. Christ wants to see a fire kindled, I say let's kindle some and I can't think of a better place to start

than with those who JUDGE THEMSELVES SAVED BEFORE Christ can and before DEATH AND JUDGMENT.

 

[kleronomos]

oh; that part.
what do you do with this:

I saw Satan fall from heaven like lightning ​

(Luke 10:18) ​

? ​

​

that's past-tense btw
and Christ was there; He's not describing a vision. He was sitting on His throne; He sent Michael.

and regarding Revelation 12:7? isn't that past-tense too? there "was" war in heaven?
and Jews play fast and loose with time - they do not write narratives in sequential order; that's all over the Bible. look at the book of Judges for example -- not chronological. not at all.



idc about your eschatological argument. i don't understand the future; 1st or 2nd to admit that.
but we can still talk
it's how i will eventually understand

i happen to think the dragon was cast out of heaven before Genesis 1:2
i can give half a dozen passages for evidence if you want

Yes, I would like for you to do that. If you don't share what has been given you (even when you know they will jump down your throat), IT WILL STOP. And between the two, there is no contest. Getting put down by men is a breeze compared to when the words of God get shut down on you. SO PLEASE share with me. I have lots to learn myself but it will all be written that's for sure. If I can't point to 2 verses that say it in GODS own words, I don't believe it. Too many wolves about...

 

[kleronomos]

I saw Satan fall from heaven like lightning (Luke 10:18) ?

Luke 10:10 But into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you not, go your ways out into the streets of the same, and say,

11 Even the very dust of your city, which cleaveth on us, we do wipe off against you: notwithstanding be ye sure of this, that the kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.

12 But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.

13 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon, which have been done in you, they had a great while ago repented, sitting in sackcloth and ashes.

14 But it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment, than for you.

15 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell.

16 He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.

17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through Thy name.

18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

SATAN COMES FIRST. He also said 'do not be deceived by any man'. He also said "one would come in his name and him you would receive

19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.

22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.



Satan went from being a king to being a prince and he was in that fallen state in the garden already. His 'kingdom' then (before the garden) was not much different than the one he will be running when he returns was it? 3 more heads than before???

 

[posthuman]

Yes, I would like for you to do that. If you don't share what has been given you (even when you know they will jump down your throat), IT WILL STOP. And between the two, there is no contest. Getting put down by men is a breeze compared to when the words of God get shut down on you. SO PLEASE share with me. I have lots to learn myself but it will all be written that's for sure. If I can't point to 2 verses that say it in GODS own words, I don't believe it. Too many wolves about...

i have to sleep soon. i will write in the morning the things i was saying; scripture i think points to Satan falling already, cast out of heaven before many things; that war over - at least no longer taking place in heaven, but on earth.

i mean maybe i'm wrong

but let me put it together in the morning

goodnight

 

[DanielLL]

hearing a voice, but seeing no man.

Acts 22:9 And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.

14 And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.

17 And it came to pass, that, when I was come again to Jerusalem, even while I prayed in the temple, I was in a trance;
18 And saw him saying unto me, Make haste, and get thee quickly out of Jerusalem: for they will not receive thy testimony concerning me.

 

[posthuman]

Yes, I would like for you to do that. If you don't share what has been given you (even when you know they will jump down your throat), IT WILL STOP. And between the two, there is no contest. Getting put down by men is a breeze compared to when the words of God get shut down on you. SO PLEASE share with me. I have lots to learn myself but it will all be written that's for sure. If I can't point to 2 verses that say it in GODS own words, I don't believe it. Too many wolves about...

good morning -

the question i want to look into is when did Satan fall? when was he cast down / when will he be cast down out of heaven?
ultimately we're trying to sort out if Revelation 12, the war in heaven wherein Michael fights the dragon and he is cast to the earth, is a past event or a future event.

Ezekiel 28 is a place to start, if we agree that this is speaking of him:

You were the seal of perfection,
Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
You were in Eden, the garden of God;
Every precious stone was your covering:
The sardius, topaz, and diamond,
Beryl, onyx, and jasper,
Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold.
The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes
Was prepared for you on the day you were created.​

You were the anointed cherub who covers;
I established you;
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,
Till iniquity was found in you.​

By the abundance of your trading
You became filled with violence within,
And you sinned;
Therefore I cast you as a profane thing
Out of the mountain of God;
And I destroyed you, O covering cherub,
From the midst of the fiery stones.​

Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor;
I cast you to the ground,
I laid you before kings,
That they might gaze at you.
(Ezekiel 28:12-17)​

​

this is announced as a lamentation of the king of Tyre, but there are clear elements of parallelism speaking of the devil.
He says, he was on the holy mountain of God, in Eden, walking among the fiery stones -- but the Eden we read about in Genesis isn't described this way; it is full of trees bearing fruit. that's a puzzle in itself.
but concentrating on the fall -- here we read Satan was cast out of the mountain of God, to the ground, out of the fiery stones and presumably to earth, when he was 'filled with violence within' from the abundance of his traffic / trading. that he was anointed, established, and then iniquity was found in him, he became murderous and was cast out.

elsewhere we read Christ say Satan was a murder from the beginning ((John 8:44)) - surely Christ is not saying Satan was created full of murder, but by 'the beginning' He must be referring to the same point that Ezekiel records, when he 'became filled with violence within'

now, in Genesis 3, Satan is clearly already murderous and full of iniquity. he is effectively trying to cause the deaths of Woman, directly, and through her Adam, indirectly - and he is full of lies.
so whether by Genesis 3 he is cast from heaven or not, maybe it isn't clear, but by this time he is already full of iniquity - he has already 'fallen'

 

[posthuman]

((cont'd))

another passage of interest:

And the LORD said to Satan,
“From where do you come?”
So Satan answered the LORD and said,
“From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it.”
(Job 1:7)

And the LORD said to Satan,
“From where do you come?”
Satan answered the LORD and said,
“From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it.”
(Job 2:2)
​

here in Job a heavenly court is described, where the angels are presenting themselves before God.
the scene is repeated - in which the LORD, Who knows all things, asks Satan where he has been?
this question is clearly not for God's benefit - He is not unaware of Satan's whereabouts.
so why is the question posed?
well, there seems to be a clue in the preceding verses:

Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD,
and Satan also came among them.​

(Job 1:6)
​

Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD,
and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.
(Job 2:1)​

the angels are present, and no doubt watching and hearing what happens.
they are differentiated from Satan, because it says, "and Satan also"
so God is causing Satan to answer this question, and the angels to witness his answer:
Satan has been wandering the earth. that's significant.
isn't God compelling Satan to give his testimony? because God is certainly not asking this question as though God doesn't know.

the book of Job is about humility, and there is a contrast here between Satan and the man -- Satan is not humbled, but full of accusation. in the closing chapters, God demands of Job, speak, if you know - and where were you when I created all these things?
He admonishes Job, pointing out something about Job's whereabouts ((& tacitly, something about Job's state and position)).
similarly, in parallel, in the beginning of the book Satan is also having his whereabouts made known:

and those whereabouts are not in heaven, but on earth, wandering.

surely Peter knew this when he said the devil goes about like a lion seeking whom he may devour - also harkening back to Satan's curse in Genesis 3, that he would 'eat dust' and go about on his belly; a state of forced humiliation.

 

[PennEd]

I absolutely believe in the trinity.

Great! Hope it isn't a modalism type of belief in the Trinity.

Why is my question met with another question? WHERE IS IT WRITTEN?

My question answers your question. I suspect you know that. As for using the verbiage you require, you say you believe in the Trinity, good! Show me where that word is. Or is it the CONCEPT you believe because Scripture says there is a Trinity?

I'll spell it out for you.


Revelation 1:20

New King James Version



20 The mystery of the seven stars which you saw in My right hand, and the seven golden lampstands: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands which you saw are the seven churches.

And here are the Lamps, WITHOUT the lampstands, in the Throneroom of God, in Heaven, BEFORE the tribulations and wrath takes place:

Revelation 4:5

New King James Version

5 And from the throne proceeded lightnings, thunderings, and voices. Seven lamps of fire were burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.


So there remains no more Holy Spirit-filled Church. There will be a false, dead church. The true Church is with the Lord, in Heaven, before the wrath of God starts.