An Analysis on the 144,000 in Revelation

[Rhomphaeam]

My wife's Rabbi is Yashua HaMashiach. Do you know Him?

In your enthusiasm to tell me that your wife is Jewish you explained:

At least three times a week, every week, the local Chabad Rabbi comes over to our house to put on Tefillin with my sons.
I greet Asher with a warm hug and often tell him that we love him.
I also share with him that we believe in the Elohim Avraham, Elohim Yitzchak and Elohim Yakov = Elohim Father Elohim Son Elohim Ruach HaKodesh.

OH, and did I mention that my wife is Jewish................PEACE

Yeah, my wife is a JEW twice over = of the flesh and of the Eternal Spirit of Yeshua HaMoshiach

Now when asked about your wife's Rabbi according to the flesh you shrink back and ask me if I know Jesus the Messiah.

How is that possible when I am asking according to your leading? These are not offensive questions - even if you are free not to answer them - how can asking then require me to confess that I know the risen Christ?

 

[DavidTree]

In your enthusiasm to tell me that your wife is Jewish you explained:



Now when asked about your wife's Rabbi according to the flesh you shrink back and ask me if I know Jesus the Messiah.

How is that possible when I am asking according to your leading? These are not offensive questions - even if you are free not to answer them - how can asking then require me to confess that I know the risen Christ?

Why would you ask about my wife having a rabbi when that was never stated nor implied, but rather the opposite.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

But where did John SEE these "souls under the altar"? In heaven, where he had been transported to.

Don't you believe that when a believer dies, their soul/spirit goes to heaven? Or do you believe in "soul sleep"?

I asked about this on Gotquestions.org, the answer I got says souls are with the Lord, bodies are "sleeping" until the Day of the Lord. Here's a quote of their conclusion:

"Therefore, after death, a person resides in either a place of comfort or in a place of torment. These realms act as a temporary “heaven“ and a temporary “hell“ until the resurrection. At that point, the soul is reunited with the body, but no one’s eternal destiny will change. "

Personally I think this temporary depository is the same Hades, but that doesn't matter, once a person dies his fate is sealed, the final outcome is the same as the Second Coming - souls coming to Christ to receive either eternal condemnation or eternal reward.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

That the verb "caught up together with them" means "caught up at the same time in union with them" (WHEN they are also "caught up"--ONE "SNATCH-action" at the SAME TIME, FOR BOTH components of the "ONE BODY").


It is not "TO MEET the dead in Christ" where they'll already BE UP THERE, ahead of the others. NO.

You know, I'm so sick and tired of this "rapture" debate. We can be b!tching all day about the nature and the timing of it, but regardless of all that, on a PERSONAL level, when a person yields their last breath, that's the same as the second coming, because until the Mark is being instituted, death has been the absolute dividing line all throughout history. As long as a person is still alive, even when he's lying on the deathbed or hanged on the cross like the thief, he still has the LAST CHANCE to confess in Christ; but after death, his fate is sealed. That's why Christ is warning repeatedly that "I'm coming quickly" or "I'll come at an hour you don't expect", that's not just about His second coming to the world, but also His second coming to each and every one of us at the end of our lives. We don't know how long we'll live, or at least how long we'll have an able body and clear mind to maintain our current quality of life, a calamity could fall upon us at any moment. Therefore just to knock some sense out of this "second coming" message and make this eschatology relevant to our lives, this is a call for a sense of urgency to get serious and prepared before its too late. All three parables in Matt. 25 are not just about the end of THE world, they could also apply to the end of YOUR world and MY world.

 

[Rhomphaeam]

Why would you ask about my wife having a rabbi when that was never stated nor implied, but rather the opposite.

Because you say to a Rabbinic teacher that you also believe in the Ruach HaKodesh. I began by asking what the Rabbi believed when you cite an Hebraic transliteration. As you are not a Hebrew according to the flesh and your wife is - and seeing as your sons cover themselves in the prayer shawl and in keeping with obedience to Numbers 15: 37-41 - in such a sanctified place recite the Law - one assumes these are the directives of a Rabbi.

Why would a gentile obey Rabbinic Law? Naturally, it is not unreasonable to believe that your wife is the one who respects the Rabbi according to her flesh. Thats why.

 

[DavidTree]

Because you say to a Rabbinic teacher that you also believe in the Ruach HaKodesh. I began by asking what the Rabbi believed when you cite an Hebraic transliteration. As you are not a Hebrew according to the flesh and your wife is - and seeing as your sons cover themselves in the prayer shawl and in keeping with obedience to Numbers 15: 37-41 - in such a sanctified place recite the Law - one assumes these are the directives of a Rabbi.

Why would a gentile obey Rabbinic Law? Naturally, it is not unreasonable to believe that your wife is the one who respects the Rabbi according to her flesh. Thats why.

You have read far more into this then what was posted.
Member walknlight was, not walking in the Light, and brought on false accusations to which I responded and directly exposed he/her error, since he/she was falsely accusing me of boasting against the Jews of the flesh.
The LORD knowing all things, including our hearts, exposed the sham that was going on with that as HE had me reveal the truth of my heart and personal life in direct relation to the Jews according to the flesh.
This was and is the whole matter and has now been resolved in the Light of His Glorious Grace.

 

[Rhomphaeam]

You have read far more into this then what was posted.
Member walknlight was, not walking in the Light, and brought on false accusations to which I responded and directly exposed he/her error, since he/she was falsely accusing me of boasting against the Jews of the flesh.
The LORD knowing all things, including our hearts, exposed the sham that was going on with that as HE had me reveal the truth of my heart and personal life in direct relation to the Jews according to the flesh.
This was and is the whole matter and has now been resolved in the Light of His Glorious Grace.

What the @walknlight posted that you saw as antagonistic was this:

Good Afternoon!
Rom 11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Rom 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

God Bless!

And you did react very strongly to what he said because you stated that his comment was antagonistic. The Holy Spirit didn't need to bring anything to light in that regard because his meaning is as plain as day. Your own eventual explanation to myself when I made a post of my own generalising about the proud church and the historical attitude often held when the Jews were cited in spiritual contempt by countless numbers of professing christians gave rise to your exclaiming your personal family circumstance as you stated it.

If we must infer ones heart motives - then I had my own reasons for asking my own questions. You appear satisfied by not answering a single one of them. So be it.

 

[DavidTree]

What the @walknlight posted that you saw as antagonistic was this:



And you did react very strongly to what he said because you stated that his comment was antagonistic. The Holy Spirit didn't need to bring anything to light in that regard because his meaning is as plain as day. Your own eventual explanation to myself when I made a post of my own generalising about the proud church and the historical attitude often held when the Jews were cited in spiritual contempt by countless numbers of professing christians gave rise to your exclaiming your personal family circumstance as you stated it.

If we must infer ones heart motives - then I had my own reasons for asking my own questions. You appear satisfied by not answering a single one of them. So be it.

You have been answered accordingly and truthfully.

Neither you nor walknlight nor anyone else has brought forth any evidence of which has been falsely accused of me.
The Holy Spirit knows what HE is doing here and it is not in bearing false witness but exposing it.

Good Nite friends of Job

 

[Rhomphaeam]

You have been answered accordingly and truthfully.

Neither you nor walknlight nor anyone else has brought forth any evidence of which has been falsely accused of me.
The Holy Spirit knows what HE is doing here and it is not in bearing false witness but exposing it.

Good Nite friends of Job

I was born a Hebrew according to the flesh as was my wife and my children and my mother and my father in law and my mother in Law. Job was a gentile and his antagonists were dogs. Shalom.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ." - Galatians 3:16 KJV

This says promises (plural) in every version of the Bible I can find. I don't know what version of the Bible you are looking at.

If the promises go to Christ and those in Christ it has still fulfilled the promise of land being given to descendants, just not all of the descendants. The promises don't go to all of the descendants per Romans 9. And all in Christ are Abraham's seed.

"If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise." - Galatians 3:29 KJV

Are you claiming that Christians are not descendants of Abraham through Christ?

The promises, concerning the blessing to the world.

Are you saying the promise of land, Which was given in the OT. is no longer valid. Even though God called it an eternal promise.

Lets put everything on the table. Inspite of these promises, and all of the OT and NT prophecies that these promises will still be enacted in the end. Are you telling me that these promises are no longer valid.

Understanding this

1. No salvation of any person is a result of being a partaker of this promise
2. This promise preceded the actual fulfiment of them recieving the land
3. Lev 26 states there are blessings and cursing involvved with this promise. up to and including tally destruction of the city and temple
4. Lev 26 also states even if that occcures and they are scattered all throughout the world (which happened with Assyria and Rome) if they confess and repent of their sins and their fathers sins, God will remember the promise

Lev 26
40 ‘But if they confess their iniquity and the iniquity of their fathers, with their unfaithfulness in which they were unfaithful to Me, and that they also have walked contrary to Me, 41 and that I also have walked contrary to them and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if their uncircumcised hearts are humbled, and they accept their guilt— 42 then I will remember My covenant with Jacob, and My covenant with Isaac and My covenant with Abraham I will remember; I will remember the land.

and all the prophecies concerning their repentance and return to the lan in the end like Ez 37, Ez 20, Jer 30, ROmans 11, and revelations

and you want to tell me this is no longer valid. Then claim I bear false witness when I say you are doing this?

Why do you persist in this evil of false speech? It's not too late! Turn around.

Why do you persist in calling God a liar. WHy do you persist in calling God a God that does not keep his promises>

Reel this back for a second here. What you are claiming is that "promises" in Gal 3 that were made to Abraham would actually be referring to a different set of "promises" than those given to Abraham in the OT.

How are you differentiating these sets of promises? In your view what are the promises to Abraham that Gal 3 is talking about?



No. Show me the passage that states "these promises were made to the nation of Israel". The promises are Christ's and those in Christ. This happens to beg inclusive of some that were born from the bloodline of Jacob/Israel, but not exclusive to them because the promise is through Christ. Again, Gal 3:29 spells it out.



John saw 144000. This could be an abstract symbol within the vision, it could also be the spirited form of the saints resurrected at the crucifixion. I don't have a problem with interpreting the 144,000 as ethnic Jews. I also don't have a problem with the interpretation that they are abstract symbolism in the same way that there weren't literally 10 virgins trying to enter the kingdom of heaven with lamps.

Make your case if you think otherwise. Rev 7:4 does not say "nation of Israel." Rev 7:4 says "from all the tribes of Israel"



What are you talking about here?

Real this back

God made promises to abraham

Gen 12:
1. I will make you a great nation; (Israel, Also included is the land which in ch 15 and 17 God will promise to abraham and this nation as an eternal promise)


2. I will bless you And make your name great; And you shall be a blessing. 3 I will bless those who bless you, And I will curse him who curses you; (Ongoing, as true today as it was in Christ day and will continue as long as this earth exists)


3. And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.” (through Christ and the cross)

Gal 3 and all the passages you keep quoting does not concern promise number 1, It can only be adressed in promise 2 on the fact abraham had many sons, Many nations came from him (Esau and Jacob and Ishmael are three examples. there are more) it mostly deals with promise #3, In you shall all nations be blessed. That is SALVATION is OFFERED TO ALL MANKIND based on CHRIST. where there is no jew or gentile

Those are just the facts. Twist and spin them as you want. But dont accuse me of doing something that is not true.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

You will not find one verse in Revelation where there are Resurrected Saints until chapter 20.

That is wrong

we see them in Chapter 4.

They were in the throne room, Not in paradise. Jesus did not tell the thief you will be with me in the throne room today, He said you will be with me in paradise today.

No one has any reward (crown) or a robe of righteousness until after the judgment.. These elders were not only ressurected. they had went through the judgment and been rewarded

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Second CLUE for the 144,000 - 12 X 12 X 1000

third clue

4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:

Not the church, Not gentiles. Not any other group.

 

[FreeGrace2]

DavidTree said:
ALL of those passages prove that our Glorified Bodies ONLY take place at His Second Coming.

ALL of the Saints you see in Rev up to ch20 are the Spirits of the Dead in Christ waiting for the Resurrection.

God does not want you ignorant of this:

In what body was Moses found on the Mount of Transfiguration? And what body Elijah?

Scripture doesn't say. We have no right to assume anything. What we do know is that 1 Cor 15:23 says very clearly that the resurrection (with glorified bodies) will occur "when He comes".

We don't have to assume that all believers (those who belong to Him - 1 Cor 15:23) will receive glorified bodies at the Second Advent. The verse says so.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
But where did John SEE these "souls under the altar"? In heaven, where he had been transported to.

Don't you believe that when a believer dies, their soul/spirit goes to heaven? Or do you believe in "soul sleep"?

I asked about this on Gotquestions.org, the answer I got says souls are with the Lord, bodies are "sleeping" until the Day of the Lord. Here's a quote of their conclusion:

"Therefore, after death, a person resides in either a place of comfort or in a place of torment. These realms act as a temporary “heaven“ and a temporary “hell“ until the resurrection. At that point, the soul is reunited with the body, but no one’s eternal destiny will change. "

Personally I think this temporary depository is the same Hades, but that doesn't matter, once a person dies his fate is sealed, the final outcome is the same as the Second Coming

Correct. However, since John opens chapter 4 with "door open in heaven", and John then describes what he sees in heaven, it is reasonable to conclude that the "souls under the altar" in ch 6 are also in heaven.

 

[FreeGrace2]

DavidTree said:
You will not find one verse in Revelation where there are Resurrected Saints until chapter 20.

That is wrong

we see them in Chapter 4.

What makes you assume that ch 4 proves there has been a resurrection? Aren't there believers already in heaven? Why can't you accept that what John saw in ch 4 represent believers from all the ages? And they are STILL awaiting the resurrection, when they accompany Jesus back to earth, as 1 Thess 4 plainly says.

They were in the throne room, Not in paradise. Jesus did not tell the thief you will be with me in the throne room today, He said you will be with me in paradise today.

You are confusing OT and NT. When Jesus said that, NO believer was in heaven. All went to Hades, to the compartment caled Paradise or Abraham's Bosom, awaiting for Jesus to come to Hades and take them to heaven.

When John wrote Revelation, all dead believers were already in heaven.

No one has any reward (crown) or a robe of righteousness until after the judgment..[/QUTOE]
I agree about rewards given at the Bema, which will be at the Second Advent. Regarding robes of righteousness, that doesn't necessarily refer to rewards.

These elders were not only ressurected. they had went through the judgment and been rewarded

You are simply fighting against the Word of God.

There is just ONE resurrection of the saved, and ONE of the unsaved. Acts 24:15. Or prove this verse doesn't say that.

1 Cor 15:23 clearly indicates that the ONE resurrection of ALL believers will be "when He comes" a clear reference to the Second Advent.

If anyone gets a glorified body BEFORE the ONE resurrrection of all believers, the Bible would have to explain why the resurrection of tribulation martyrs is called the FIRST resurrection.

The facts are totally against any resurrection BEFORE the Second Advent.

And, to remind, there are NO verses that show Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.

So there's that.

 

[DavidTree]

That is wrong

we see them in Chapter 4.

They were in the throne room, Not in paradise. Jesus did not tell the thief you will be with me in the throne room today, He said you will be with me in paradise today.

No one has any reward (crown) or a robe of righteousness until after the judgment.. These elders were not only ressurected. they had went through the judgment and been rewarded

All the Saints you see in the throne room are the souls/spirits of dead in Christ = 1 Thess 4:13-18

Paradise was not heaven nor the throne room = Luke ch16

2 Cor ch5
Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is dismantled, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. 2For in this tent we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, 3because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. 4So while we are in this tent, we groan under our burdens, because we do not wish to be unclothed but clothed, so that our mortality may be swallowed up by life. 5And God has prepared us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a pledge of what is to come.
6Therefore we are always confident, although we know that while we are at home in the body, we are away from the Lord. 7For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8We are confident, then, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9So we aspire to please Him, whether we are here in this body or away from it. 10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive his due for the things done in the body, whether good or bad.

 

[DavidTree]

I was born a Hebrew according to the flesh as was my wife and my children and my mother and my father in law and my mother in Law. Job was a gentile and his antagonists were dogs. Shalom.

Shalom,

God never referred to Job's friends as dogs and neither do I. God did say they were in error.

 

[DavidTree]

third clue

4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:

Not the church, Not gentiles. Not any other group.

I am a member of the ISRAEL of GOD for I have been Born-Again in CHRIST and I have been Sealed by the Holy Spirit.

But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”

What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

As He says also in Hosea:
“I will call them My people, who were not My people,
And her beloved, who was not beloved.”
“And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them,
‘You are not My people,’
There they shall be called sons of the living God.”

What shall we say then?
That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness.

Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone. As it is written:
“Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense,
And whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”

 

[FreeGrace2]

Shalom,

God never referred to Job's friends as dogs and neither do I. God did say they were in error.

Jews were very "racist" and considered Gentiles less than human. Ergo, "dogs".

 

[Rhomphaeam]

DavidTree said:
ALL of those passages prove that our Glorified Bodies ONLY take place at His Second Coming.

ALL of the Saints you see in Rev up to ch20 are the Spirits of the Dead in Christ waiting for the Resurrection.

God does not want you ignorant of this:

Scripture doesn't say. We have no right to assume anything. What we do know is that 1 Cor 15:23 says very clearly that the resurrection (with glorified bodies) will occur "when He comes".

We don't have to assume that all believers (those who belong to Him - 1 Cor 15:23) will receive glorified bodies at the Second Advent. The verse says so.

I made no assumption. I asked a question concerning two men. Why do you brethren endlessly attribute to others what they have not said? You have made yourself teachers. Then prepare yourself to being more harshly judged when the Kingdom comes in its fulness as it did in its part on the Mount of Transfiguration in the sight of Peter, James and John.