An Analysis on the 144,000 in Revelation

[DavidTree]

No, I didn't say that. I believe there will be a single resurrection for "those who belong to Him", per 1 Cor 15:23. And that will be "when He comes, also per 1 Cor 15:23.

And that refers to Christ's Second Advent, which will be at the end of the Tribulation.

Rev 20:5 plainly says the resurrection of the trib martyrs is "the first resurrecton". There will be one more resurrection, that one for all the unsaved. Acts 24:15 says there will be "a resurrection for the saved and a resurrection for the unsaved".

btw, I want to make the point that there will be no such thing as a "rapture" as pretribbers fantasize.

Jesus will NOT be taking any glorified believers to heaven, regardless of when.

I think we need to stop using that word, because of what it conjures up and stick with the biblical word "gathered", found in Matt 24 which will be after the Tribulation, and 2 Thess 2:1, which is also after the Trib.

When Jesus returns at the Second Advent, all living believers will be "gathered up" to meet all the dead saints in the air/clouds, and everyone will receive glorified bodies.

From that point, all believers will "be with Him forever" per 1 Thess 4. So, instead of that fantasy trip to heaven, all believers will descend with Christ to earth where they will serve/reign with Him in His kingdom.

Free2Grace - my mistake as the question was meant for Rhomphaen

You give a very good breakdown - thank you

I think you are speaking to the wrong man. I am not listening. The man you instructed in so sweet a manner is the man you ought to be speaking to. Not me. Do hope that helps you - but if not lets go to the ravine together where silence is just a prelude to the storm that makes ruin the walk.

Good Morning,
I believe you said to me that you believe in mid-trib rapture - yes/no?

 

[Rhomphaeam]

I believe you said to me that you believe in mid-trib rapture - yes/no?

Yes.

 

[DavidTree]

Yes.

Question: Can you help me understand from Scripture your mid-trib viewpoint?

 

[Lifted_by_the_word]

There is no 144,000 in heaven.The 144,000 being redeemed from the earth is referred in a spiritual sense.From a worldly mind to being virgins,blameless,walking with God..The Levite's are a good reference to the 144,000 because like those in Revelation 14 they are the remnant that God has preserved for himself.The crossing of the Jordan foreshadows a repeat of things to come.They carry the Ark of the Covenant which contains the book of the Law.read Revelation 14.The Levite's(Remnant) still carry the Ark.Which means they have the ministry of The Two Witnesse's.They are 144,000 temples of God with a double dose of Elijah.Aka the Holy Spirit that comes in the name of Jesus.They are literally filled with the spirit of Jesus.The rushing sound of water and peal of thunder is a hint of what's to come.

1 John 5:8
And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

The water and the blood are the covenants with God.And the spirit is the word of God.The Bible as a whole!

Ephesians 6:17
And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

The Bible are his Two Witnesses of the earth.When they are killed for their testimony the 144,000 are put to death.

Here's some scripture relating to Revelation 14.The first one is a good one because it flat out fits perfectly to what I just said.

Isaiah 43:7-10
Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.
Bring forth the blind people that have eyes, and the deaf that have ears.
Let all the nations be gathered together, and let the people be assembled: who among them can declare this, and shew us former things?
(Jesus,that's who).

let them (144k) bring forth their witnesses, (The Bible/Two Witnesses)that they may be justified: or let them hear, and say, It is truth.
Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 2:2
And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.


Isaiah 40:9-12
O Zion, that bringest good tidings, get thee up into the high mountain; O Jerusalem, that bringest good tidings, lift up thy voice with strength; lift it up, be not afraid; say unto the cities of Judah, Behold your God!

Behold, the Lord God will come with strong hand, and his arm shall rule for him: behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him. (Rev 14)

He shall feed his flock like a shepherd: he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry them in his bosom, and shall gently lead those that are with young.

Who hath measured the waters in the hollow of his hand, and meted out heaven with the span, and comprehended the dust of the earth in a measure, and weighed the mountains in scales, and the hills in a balance?


There's just so much on the 144,000.I Submitted a thread on the 144k and The Two Witnesse's that never got approved a while back.Probably because it wasn't complete. But I really just wanted to slowly add to it.Glad it didn't get approved honestly To much typing and note gathering.

Here's another verse from Isaiah that reveals who the Two Witnesses are, and how the remnant/144,000 are connected as one.

There is no 144,000 in heaven.The 144,000 being redeemed from the earth is referred in a spiritual sense.From a worldly mind to being virgins,blameless,walking with God..The Levite's are a good reference to the 144,000 because like those in Revelation 14 they are the remnant that God has preserved for himself.The crossing of the Jordan foreshadows a repeat of things to come.They carry the Ark of the Covenant which contains the book of the Law.read Revelation 14.The Levite's(Remnant) still carry the Ark.Which means they have the ministry of The Two Witnesse's.They are 144,000 temples of God with a double dose of Elijah.Aka the Holy Spirit that comes in the name of Jesus.They are literally filled with the spirit of Jesus.The rushing sound of water and peal of thunder is a hint of what's to come.

1 John 5:8
And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

The water and the blood are the covenants with God.And the spirit is the word of God.The Bible as a whole!

Ephesians 6:17
And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

The Bible are his Two Witnesses of the earth.When they are killed for their testimony the 144,000 are put to death.

Here's some scripture relating to Revelation 14.The first one is a good one because it flat out fits perfectly to what I just said.

Isaiah 43:7-10
Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.
Bring forth the blind people that have eyes, and the deaf that have ears.
Let all the nations be gathered together, and let the people be assembled: who among them can declare this, and shew us former things?
(Jesus,that's who).

let them (144k) bring forth their witnesses, (The Bible/Two Witnesses)that they may be justified: or let them hear, and say, It is truth.
Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 2:2
And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.


Isaiah 40:9-12
O Zion, that bringest good tidings, get thee up into the high mountain; O Jerusalem, that bringest good tidings, lift up thy voice with strength; lift it up, be not afraid; say unto the cities of Judah, Behold your God!

Behold, the Lord God will come with strong hand, and his arm shall rule for him: behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him. (Rev 14)

He shall feed his flock like a shepherd: he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry them in his bosom, and shall gently lead those that are with young.

Who hath measured the waters in the hollow of his hand, and meted out heaven with the span, and comprehended the dust of the earth in a measure, and weighed the mountains in scales, and the hills in a balance?


There's just so much on the 144,000.I Submitted a thread on the 144k and The Two Witnesse's that never got approved a while back.Probably because it wasn't complete. But I really just wanted to slowly add to it.Glad it didn't get approved honestly To much typing and note gathering.

Another verse from Isaiah that confirms The Two Witnesses as the Bible.

Isaiah 8:20
To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. (the water and the spirit spoken of in 1 John 5:8.)

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

You can't provide a post number because it never happened. What does that make you?

Concerning a particular promise made to one nation and you claiming it was not valid anymore

Please read Romans 9 and Galatians 3.

The promises were not made to the "nation" of Israel. It's not as though the promises were made in vain. It is a fact that not all of Israel are Israel. The promise is counted through the singular seed of Abraham, not the seeds. Christ is that seed. And if you are Christ's you are Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise.

Abraham wasn't a Jew.

The promise to Abraham is to his seed (singular). That seed is Christ. Those that are one with Christ are one with that inheritance of the promise. I don't think you disagree with that.
The point of talking about "Not all of Israel are Israel" isn't just to point out that the inheritance went down the line of one son, it is also to highlight the fact that the promise is not intended for every descendant. And in fact, the promise was for a singular seed.

God's promise to Abraham was to ALL Nations = Galatians chapter 3

The Specific Promise thru One Child is CHRIST.

For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Concerning the 144000 Not being children of Israel

Revelation has some literal and symbolism interwoven throughout.
Revelation ch7 and ch14 that speak of the 144k is symbolic.

I am not afraid of posting posts. It is just time consuming, But if you want to act like I can't defend what I say. I will throw it back to you.

You both did what I said, and you did. It is you who are falsly accusing others those of us who are calling you out on this.

 

[Absolutely]

when you and him state Gods promise to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and his 12 sons and their families as an eternal promise is no longer valid. You call him a liar.

When you say the 144000 are not from Israel. You call the angel who told John to write that number down, and God, who gave him the message, liars.

Lets just stick with that why don't we

Exactly.
Force them to refute the bible.

It is appalling they go there.
In going against the word of God, they actually strike at Gods own testimony.
Scary indeed.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

When Jesus returns at the Second Advent, all living believers will be "gathered up" to meet all the dead saints in the air/clouds, and

The text does NOT state that the "we which are ALIVE and remain unto" will be [the only ones] gathered up TO MEET all the dead saints in the air/clouds (as though, to where they'll already be located, ahead of the others). No.

It states, "the DEAD IN Christ shall rise first" (meaning, be bodily resurrected ['TO STAND AGAIN' (on the earth)] first), before then we'll all be "caught up / gathered up TOGETHER WITH [IN-UNION-WITH] THEM [snatched up at the SAME TIME that THEY will also be snatched up (G726 - harpagēsometha ] in the clouds TO [ALL of us TOGETHER, at ONCE] the meeting OF THE LORD in the air"...

The text does NOT state "to meet all the dead saints in the air/clouds" as though they arrived there before the others. NO.





[again, for the readers: the adverb must be attached to the verb... "caught up [/snatched up] together with them," meaning "snatched up at the same time that they will also be snatched up"]

 

[Absolutely]

So of ALL the numbers in the book of Revelation, only 144,000 is symbolic, is that right?



Okay, bare with me. Lets compare the 144,000 and the Great Multitude with the wise and foolish virgins in Matthew 25. There are two groups shown in Matthew chapter 25:1-13, similar to the two groups of Christians depicted in Revelation chapter 7.

There are some very familiar symbols in the Matthew description, which makes it easier to interpret who is being described and provide a good starting place to consider these two groups of Christians. First we have ten virgins with lamps in Matthew. The use of virgins as a symbol (2 Cor. 11:2) corresponds to those who’ve dedicated their life to Jesus the bridegroom (Revelation 19:7), and the number ten signifies that these virgins represent the sum total of all of the virgins. However, the virgins are divided into two groups – wise virgins and foolish virgins.

All the virgins have lamps representing the word of God (Psalm 119:105, 2 Peter 1:19) and all of them are awakened by the announcement of the bridegroom’s presence outside the door (cf. Revelation 3:20). However, the foolish virgins have brought insufficient oil with them for their lamps. The oil is the Holy Spirit (Isaiah 6:1-3, 2 Cor. 1:21-22) and evidently the foolish virgins lack the same spirit of commitment as the wise virgins.

Matthew places this parable in the same context with signs (Matthew chapter 24) and with other parables (Matthew chapter 25) of Christ’s return. That is the sense of this parable, also, for all of the virgins are waiting for the bridegroom to return.

The foolish virgins experience difficulties when the bridegroom arrives at the house at the stroke of midnight (cf. Song of Solomon 5:2-7). Their lamps are sputtering from a lack of oil, which suggests they are having difficulty understanding everything happening at the time. They go to get more oil in the marketplace (the parallel in Revelation seven would be the great multitude going out into the great tribulation). While they are gone the bridegroom takes the wise virgins to the wedding feast and the door is closed to the foolish virgins.

Note that throughout the parable they never cease to be virgins. They are genuinely loyal to Christ, but seem to lack the same degree or spirit (oil) of zeal and commitment that the wise virgins manifest, and they are shut out from going in to the wedding. So this parable suggests something different from the traditional view of the church… the understanding that all Christians are members of the bride of Christ. In the case of the parable of the wise and foolish virgins, there are two “classes” of Christians… and not all of them are part of the bride and the wedding.

So how do we account for these foolish virgins? Is the entire explanation for the existence of this group based solely on this parable? Consider some other examples from the scriptures –

• In Psalm 45 we have also a description of a wedding feast for the king’s daughter. In verse 14 we read “she will be led to the king in embroidered work; the virgins her companions who follow her shall be brought to you.” The Psalm is rich with metaphor, and if the bride is the wise virgins of the parable in Matthew, then who do the “virgins her companions who follow her” represent if not the foolish virgins?
• In 1 Corinthians 3:14 and 15 we have an example of two individuals that build on the foundation of Jesus Christ (verse 11). One of these individuals builds with quality materials and the other builds with inferior materials. The one who builds with quality materials receives a reward. The one who builds with inferior materials has their work destroyed, but they are still saved… although through the fire of trials (1 Peter 4:12).

These passages bear a striking similarity to the parable of the wise and foolish virgins in Matthew chapter 25 and the great multitude in Revelation chapter seven – in Psalm 45 we have the bride and then her virgin companions who are not the bride. In 1 Corinthians chapter 3 we have those who are rewarded as opposed to those who seem to be barely saved from destruction (1 Cor. 3:17).

Let’s compare what we’ve just considered with Revelation chapter seven and see if we can draw similar conclusions on this subject. In Revelation chapter 7, the 144,000 are described as selected from the twelve tribes of Israel. Throughout the book of Revelation, the Israel described within its pages does not seem to represent the literal nation of Israel, but rather spiritual Israel or the church (cf. Romans 2:28-29, 9:6-8, Galatians 6:16, Philippians 3:3, 135 Colossians 2:11, Revelation 2:9). As in other places throughout Revelation, it makes much more sense to interpret the tribes in chapter seven as spiritual Israel.

As in Matthew chapter 25, there are two groups of people described in the chapter. In Revelation chapter seven they are described as the 144,000 (7:1-8) and the great multitude (7:9-17), and these two groups are readily distinguished from each other. In one instance the group has a specific number (the 144,000), and this is contrasted with the great multitude that is a group “which no man could number.” The first group is sealed before the winds of trouble are loosed (verses 1-3) and the other group experiences “great tribulation” (verse 14).

In addition we have descriptions of the bride of Christ from elsewhere that differ significantly from the description of the great multitude in chapter seven. For example the bride of Christ is everywhere described as seated on thrones and reigning (Revelation 3:21, 20:4), while in this chapter the great multitude are described as ”before the throne” yet worshipping in God’s temple (verse 15). The bride of Christ is described as those “who have not soiled their garments; and they will walk with me in white, for they are worthy” (Revelation 3:4). In contrast the great multitude is described as those whose robes were soiled and they “have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb” (verse 14).

The book of Revelation is not the only place where we have an example of those who need to have their robes washed. In the book of Jude we have a description of those who have not been completely faithful and who needed special repentance and cleansing. The book of Jude (verses 22-23) speaks of various examples of those who are straying in some way from the love of God (verse 21). It specifically makes mention of having mercy on those whose “garment [is] polluted [or “spotted”] by the flesh.”

This idea of cleansing from the actions of the flesh is elsewhere depicted in 1 Corinthians 5:5. Here we have the description of the unrepentant man whom the church had not confronted. Paul speaks of “the destruction of his flesh that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.” Paul is dealing with a specific individual rather than discussing a representative group in this instance, and he does not judge this man’s ultimate destiny. However, the verse does convey the idea of repentance and forgiveness and cleansing from the flesh as the outcome of suffering (tribulation).

Of course, our description of the great multitude could be criticized in our so[1]called enlightened age for not being properly egalitarian. Yet the scriptures do not shy away from the concept of reward (2 John 1:8) or even differing rewards. For an example, take some to read and ponder the parable of the pounds in Luke 19:11-27.

The problem with our perception here seems to be twofold.

1. There is a lack of humility on our part. The idea of accepting your place in the world (Luke 14:7-11) is a lost principle in our society and to a large extent in the Christian church. We tend to place ourselves at the center of our world. Christians in the past were much more inclined to see themselves as parts of a larger whole. They were more likely to see themselves as essential parts of a community that was greater than their individual importance.
2. We have a tendency to accept a secular view that equates a person’s role with their value or worth. This is not a biblical concept. The bible makes a clear distinction between someone’s position and whether that person is valued as an important part of the community. Take some time to read and ponder another passage, this one regarding the body of Christ in 1 Cor. 12:4-26 (and on through 1 Cor. 13:7).

So then, maybe we should ask… if these foolish virgins, this great multitude, doesn’t receive the same reward as the bride of Christ… what do they get? From Revelation 7:15-17 “…and He who sits on the throne shall spread His tabernacle over them. They shall hunger no more, neither thirst anymore; neither shall the sun beat down on them, nor any heat; for the Lamb in the center of the throne shall be their shepherd, and shall guide them to springs of the waters of life; and God shall wipe every tear from their eyes.” Doesn’t sound like such a bad deal to me

So then, maybe we should ask… if these foolish virgins, this great multitude, doesn’t receive the same reward as the bride of Christ…

Yes they end up in heaven as the innumerable number. They had dirty robes ( washed in the blood) and entered via repentance and martyrdom.

Mat 25
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

Vivid picture of the rapture with the carnal pew sitters left behind.

 

[Absolutely]

The text does NOT state that the "we which are ALIVE and remain unto" will be [the only ones] gathered up TO MEET all the dead saints in the air/clouds (as though, to where they'll already be located, ahead of the others). No.

It states, "the DEAD IN Christ shall rise first" (meaning, be bodily resurrected ['TO STAND AGAIN' (on the earth)] first), before then we'll all be "caught up / gathered up TOGETHER WITH [IN-UNION-WITH] THEM [snatched up at the SAME TIME that THEY will also be snatched up (G726 - harpagēsometha ] in the clouds TO [ALL of us TOGETHER, at ONCE] the meeting OF THE LORD in the air"...

The text does NOT state "to meet all the dead saints in the air/clouds" as though they arrived there before the others. NO.





[again, for the readers: the adverb must be attached to the verb... "caught up [/snatched up] together with them," meaning "snatched up at the same time that they will also be snatched up"]

i don't quite get your stand.

Is it a pivotal point if there is 15 seconds separating the gathering?

 

[Rhomphaeam]

Question: Can you help me understand from Scripture your mid-trib viewpoint?

There is no need to understand my mid tribulation belief.

I care nothing for discussion and endless speculation about end time events. I regard them to be a vanity. All such speculations produce nothing for believers. Indeed it could be argued that eschatological doctrines have done as much to harm the flocks as any other heretical determination has done. It could be claimed that many believers are deluded into thinking that end time knowledge is an evidence of being spiritually minded, and so there is no immediate reason to be concerned - even when it is self-evident that we may be living selfish lives with little or no fruit of the Spirit. By making the signs of the times a focus we have missed our own conduct.

 

[DavidTree]

There is no need to understand my mid tribulation belief.

I care nothing for discussion and endless speculation about end time events. I regard them to be a vanity. All such speculations produce nothing for believers. Indeed it could be argued that eschatological doctrines have done as much to harm the flocks as any other heretical determination has done. It could be claimed that many believers are deluded into thinking that end time knowledge is an evidence of being spiritually minded, and so there is no immediate reason to be concerned - even when it is self-evident that we may be living selfish lives with little or no fruit of the Spirit. By making the signs of the times a focus we have missed our own conduct.

If this were true then the LORD would never of spoken of:
A. His Second Coming
B. Enduring through Tribulation
C. World events leading up to His Coming
D. Warning of deception - false teachers, prophets, doctrines of demons
E. the spirit of antichrist, many antichrists and finally the "man of sin" = the antichrist
F. Warning against the Mark of the Beast
G. His Coming = Resurrection of the Dead in Him
H. His Coming = destruction of the antichrist and his followers
I. His Coming = transformed into His Likeness
J. His Coming = Reigning and Ruling with Him on thrones of Glory

HE did elaborate on these things so I like to be in the Know.
It sucks to be led along down the wrong path.
Example: There are people on here who do not believe in a physical return of the LORD and the Resurrection of the Dead.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
When Jesus returns at the Second Advent, all living believers will be "gathered up" to meet all the dead saints in the air/clouds, and

The text does NOT state that the "we which are ALIVE and remain unto" will be [the only ones] gathered up TO MEET all the dead saints in the air/clouds (as though, to where they'll already be located, ahead of the others). No.

In your response, you quoted me as above but made it look like what you like to post; you know, LARGE letters, bolded, underlined, etc.

Why did you do that? Just curious.

What you also did was ADD WORDS that I didn't say. Why did you do that?

This is what I did say:
FreeGrace2 said:
When Jesus returns at the Second Advent, all living believers will be "gathered up" to meet all the dead saints in the air/clouds, and

And you left off the rest of what I posted. Please quit adding words to my posts. Just quote what I DO post, and not add words that I didn't post. That's not very honest, imo.

It states, "the DEAD IN Christ shall rise first" (meaning, be bodily resurrected ['TO STAND AGAIN' (on the earth)] first), before then we'll all be "caught up / gathered up TOGETHER WITH [IN-UNION-WITH] THEM [snatched up at the SAME TIME that THEY will also be snatched up (G726 - harpagēsometha ] in the clouds TO [ALL of us TOGETHER, at ONCE] the meeting OF THE LORD in the air"...

This isn't any different than what I posted. What is your point?

The text does NOT state "to meet all the dead saints in the air/clouds" as though they arrived there before the others. NO.

Is this your point? Really? That's no point at all. Do you disagree that the living believers will meet all the dead saints in the air/clouds when Jesus returns WITH the dead saints?

Haven't you ever read 1 Thess 4?

13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope.
14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.
15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

Now, please show me what I left out or added to Scripture, if you can. Thanks.

[again, for the readers: the adverb must be attached to the verb... "caught up [/snatched up] together with them," meaning "snatched up at the same time that they will also be snatched up"]

I think you are trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill.

At the Second Advent, Jesus brings with Him all the believers who have already died and are WITH Him in heaven. That whole group will meet the living believers in the air/clouds.

So what error have I made?

As to who gets to the air/clouds FIRST, no one really knows. What we do know is that the dead saints get their glorified bodies before the living saints. 1 Thess 4 says so.

I always go with what the Bible SAYS.

I don't go with what the Bible NEVER says.

 

[FreeGrace2]

DavidTree said:
Question: Can you help me understand from Scripture your mid-trib viewpoint?

There is no need to understand my mid tribulation belief.

I care nothing for discussion and endless speculation about end time events. I regard them to be a vanity. All such speculations produce nothing for believers.

OK, I'm convinced that your mid-trib viewpoint comes from endless speculation. Thanks for the clarity.

It could be claimed that many believers are deluded into thinking that end time knowledge is an evidence of being spiritually minded

Arrogance with a dab of witlessness. End time knowledge should be based ONLY what the Bible SAYS about the end times. Anything beyond that is a delusion.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Do you disagree that the living believers will meet all the dead saints in the air/clouds when Jesus returns WITH the dead saints?

The text does NOT state this.

And plz note that I am zeroing in on, to address, the part I underlined of your post.


Instead, the text states, "caught up TOGETHER [/ AT THE SAME TIME] WITH them..."



Thayer's:

In 1 Thessalonians 4:17 and 1 Thessalonians 5:10, where ἅμα is followed by σύν, ἅμα is an adverb (at the same time) and must be joined to the verb.

I always go with what the Bible SAYS.

I don't go with what the Bible NEVER says.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

i don't quite get your stand.

Is it a pivotal point if there is 15 seconds separating the gathering?

We'll all be "caught up" in ONE "SNATCH-action" (AT THE SAME TIME, from the same location, TO the meeting OF THE LORD in the air)

The text states, "caught up [verb] TOGETHER [adverb] WITH THEM..."

"together with them" means, at the same time that they will also be "caught up"... NOT separately arriving "to the meeting of the Lord in the air"... but "caught up TOGETHER WITH THEM in the clouds TO the meeting of the Lord in the air"




... and the text further states, "and SO [/IN THIS MANNER] shall WE ever be WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-WITH] the Lord"...


... IOW, the "caught up / SNATCH / rapture" action (for all of us together at the same time) is the MEANS BY WHICH the "UNIONed-WITH [G4862]" thing will occur... so that, "them also... will God bring WITH [UNIONed-WITH G4862] Him" is NOT referencing anything PRIOR TO that "snatch-action" [/rapture] point in time.

This part of the text is also often being misunderstood... It's not saying He'll "bring with Him" the dead in Christ in their spirits (where they are currently "at home with [G4313] the Lord" and "absent from the body"). The text in 1Th4:14 is NOT expressing that.




["caught up / SNATCH / rapture [G726]" pertains SOLELY TO "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (ALL those having come to faith in Christ "in this present age [singular]")... not to all other saints of all OTHER time periods... Not to OT saints... not to Trib saints... Not to MK saints]

 

[Jocund]

Concerning a particular promise made to one nation and you claiming it was not valid anymore

It's not as though the promise was made in vain, the promise just wasn't for anyone but Christ (and those in Christ).

Can you show a passage where it states that the promise was made to "the nation of Israel" instead of simply to "Israel"? My criticism is about who the promise applies to which Rom 9 and Gal 3 are very clear about that.

After you changed your claim from "you claimed God lied", this was one of the claims you made:

when you and him state Gods promise to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and his 12 sons and their families as an eternal promise is no longer valid.

No one claimed that the promise was no longer valid, only that He whom the promise applied to didn't match what modern Jews may claim. Therefore your accusation is untrue. First you claimed others were "calling God a liar", then when you were challenged to prove your claim, you shifted your claim to "you're claiming God's claim is no longer valid", and when challenged on that, the closest thing you could present was where a user made a case based in scripture that the promise did not apply to who you might think. There was nothing stated about ceased validity.

I beleive it is a fair assessment that you have wilfully misrepresented other users views for the purpose of attacking the people instead of the ideas. Based on that observation, I am asking you to stop.

Concerning the 144000 Not being children of Israel

The interpretation that Revelation contains figurative language is not a claim that God lied pursuant to your earlier accusation.

I am not afraid of posting posts. It is just time consuming, But if you want to act like I can't defend what I say. I will throw it back to you.

You have yet to defend what you said.

You both did what I said, and you did. It is you who are falsly accusing others those of us who are calling you out on this.

I think you need to take a breather and think this one over.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Do you disagree that the living believers will meet all the dead saints in the air/clouds when Jesus returns WITH the dead saints?

The text does NOT state this.

I don't know what text you are reading from, but 1 Thess 4 is very clear.

14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.
15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

What isn't clear about this? The red words refer to the believers who are already in heaven, because they died.
The blue words refer to the believers who haven't died and are alive when the Lord returns.

And plz note that I am zeroing in on, to address, the part I underlined of your post.
Instead, the text states, "caught up TOGETHER [/ AT THE SAME TIME] WITH them..."

Of course. The dead and living believers will be TOGETHER, just as the text says.

So, again, what is your point?

[/QUOTE]Thayer's:

In 1 Thessalonians 4:17 and 1 Thessalonians 5:10, where ἅμα is followed by σύν, ἅμα is an adverb (at the same time) and must be joined to the verb.[/QUOTE]
Proving what?

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

It's not as though the promise was made in vain, the promise just wasn't for anyone but Christ (and those in Christ).

See there you go again.

Gen 15:
17 And it came to pass, when the sun went down and it was dark, that behold, there appeared a smoking oven and a burning torch that passed between those pieces. 18 On the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying:

“To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the River Euphrates— 19 the Kenites, the Kenezzites, the Kadmonites, 20 the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim, 21 the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.”

This is not Christ. He said YOUR DESCENDENTS!

Gen 17: 8 Also I give to you and your descendants after you the land in[f] which you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.”

The same promise, seen as an ETERNAL PROMISE meaning this gift IS STILL IN EFFECT TODAY!

Can you show a passage where it states that the promise was made to "the nation of Israel" instead of simply to "Israel"? My criticism is about who the promise applies to which Rom 9 and Gal 3 are very clear about that.

Rom 9 and gal 3 does not counter the verses posted above where one particular promise is given to one particular group.

After you changed your claim from "you claimed God lied", this was one of the claim you made:

You still claim God lied!

No one claimed that the promise was no longer valid, only that He whom the promise applied to didn't match what modern Jews may claim. Therefore your accusation is untrue. First you claimed others were "calling God a liar", then when you were challenged to prove your claim, you shifted your claim to "you're claiming God's claim is no longer valid", and when challenged on that, the closest thing you could present was where a user made a case based in scripture that the promise did not apply to who you might think. There was nothing stated about ceased validity.

You claim the promise given in the verses I post above is no longer valid. When you claim it was not given to the one nation. But christ, or to all people jew or gentile.

the pomises were not made about Jesus or gentiles.

It was made to one nation PERIOD

I beleive it is a fair assessment that you have wilfully misrepresented other users views for the purpose of attacking the people instead of the ideas. Based on that observation, I am asking you to stop.

And your still wrong. What I have stated is FACT.

The interpretation that Revelation contains figurative language is not a claim that God lied pursuant to your earlier accusation.



You have yet to defend what you said.



I think you need to take a breather and think this one over.

when Jesus came, He fulfulled literally what was said concerning him

the 4 gentile kingdoms were and are (in the case of the last kingdom) literally fulfilled as said.

when God says 144000 of the people/nation for Isreal. He means it. It is not up to us to change his words. perfert his words. or to give a different meaning to the words God spoke as these events WILL TAKE PLACE

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

EDIT to add to my last post:

"Behold I SHOW YOU a mystery"... "THIS corruptible" ("the DEAD IN Christ") and "THIS mortal" (the "we which are ALIVE and remain unto" who are also "IN Christ")

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Thayer's:

In 1 Thessalonians 4:17 and 1 Thessalonians 5:10, where ἅμα is followed by σύν, ἅμα is an adverb (at the same time) and must be joined to the verb.

Proving what?

That the verb "caught up together with them" means "caught up at the same time in union with them" (WHEN they are also "caught up"--ONE "SNATCH-action" at the SAME TIME, FOR BOTH components of the "ONE BODY").


It is not "TO MEET the dead in Christ" where they'll already BE UP THERE, ahead of the others. NO.