Any Post or Non-Tribbers in Here?

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GRACE_ambassador

Well-known member
Feb 22, 2021
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Midwest
Pre trib rapture (I use this term loosely) sounds boring and does not seem to check out with the scripture
With all I’m learning, I gotta say that my pre trib stance isn’t as strong as it was a few days ago. But here’s my problem. Jesus said that no man knows the day or the hour of his coming. for a post trib coming (or rapture) all we really have to do is wait for thé antichrist to declare himself God, and boom! We can calculate exactly when His coming will occur. Why does He depict his coming as a thief in the night when that scenario is apparently never going to happen. I’m confused more than ever.
Precious friends, instead of getting BURIED/Lost in this thread, if you would like
to review and/or discuss God's Great GRACE Departure checked out With Many
Scriptures, we can do so here:

Great GRACE {MYSTERY} Departure @ the 2nd coming {prophecy}?

Please Be Very RICHLY Encouraged and Edified!

GRACE And Peace...
 

JeffA

Minstrel
Mar 31, 2022
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My understanding of The Revelation of Jesus Christ:
John's vision in Heaven starts with the despair of heavenly beings because no one was worthy to open the scroll.
Suddenly, the Lamb of God appeared and was worthy, and at THAT time proceeded to open the first seal.
This is clearly Jesus, having defeated death.

The first seal is opened and a white horse proceeds. The rider has a victor's crown and a bow.

I'm not going to paraphrase the whole book. The point is that the opening of the seals began then and the first horse represents the spreading of the Gospel of Jesus. Matt 24 warns against being deceived. Many people think the white horse is the antichrist. Many think it is Jesus. Neither can be true. Refer to the horses of Zech.

Since then, the next 3 seals are opened and the progression is like birth pangs leading to Daniel's 70th week.

I believe the 5th seal to have significance in that it identifies a marker in time "how much longer do we wait".

At the 6th seal. Things get very real for those of us on earth. It will be sudden, like a thief.

The Trumpets are God's judgement. The bowls are the wrath (in which believers do not partake.)
Jesus returns at the 7th trumpet. That is the only "rapture" there will be.

Nowhere in revelation is it indicated that the 70th week commences at the first seal. Rather, it makes more sense that Jesus has been at work even since his resurrection.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents.
God Bless you all.
 

eXric

Active member
Mar 31, 2022
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If two people are in a field. One being a believer, and one not a believer. The none believer is killed by a very large hail stone. At the same time that happened the believer lives. Then God did His thing, and yet the believer is safe. This is because God can do that stuff.

Would that fit with post trib rapture? That way God can do wrath, judgement, what ever you might call it, and still believer get thru the tribulation.
 
P

pottersclay

Guest
Just want to say that this is one of the best threads yet on the trib and second coming....why....because saints are asking questions, showing where their confusion lies and wanting to know the truth.
There are hardly any debated things here in fact a more mature manner seems to be in place.
I love all the saints that search for the truth and all the input that this thread has.
Please keep pressing and provide your thoughts towards scripture presented.
Truly blessed.
 
Aug 2, 2021
7,317
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If two people are in a field. One being a believer, and one not a believer. The none believer is killed by a very large hail stone. At the same time that happened the believer lives. Then God did His thing, and yet the believer is safe. This is because God can do that stuff.

Would that fit with post trib rapture? That way God can do wrath, judgement, what ever you might call it, and still believer get thru the tribulation.
What if the Scripture is True and God decides to throw the large Hail stone killing both the unbeliever and the believer?

Did they both die in His wrath?
or
Scripture is True and God, in His Unsearchable Knowledge, decided that it was both their appointments to die at the same time and in the same manner.
Hebrews 9: 27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,
and
"There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom." Luke ch16

Is there not an expiration date on these vessels of flesh that we are temporarily residing in?
Does not God decide when, where and how HE takes us Home - via death?
When a believer dies in a horrible accident - was God angry, wrathful or just taking His Son/Daughter Home?
 
Aug 2, 2021
7,317
2,048
113
Just want to say that this is one of the best threads yet on the trib and second coming....why....because saints are asking questions, showing where their confusion lies and wanting to know the truth.
There are hardly any debated things here in fact a more mature manner seems to be in place.
I love all the saints that search for the truth and all the input that this thread has.
Please keep pressing and provide your thoughts towards scripture presented.
Truly blessed.
Take your time but do not forget about the Scriptural breakdown of those 'rapture of the remnant' verses - Post #275
 
L

Live4Him2

Guest
Just saw this thread, and happy to oblige! I was raised in a Christian home and believed from an early age that Jesus will come and take believers to heaven (rapture).

Then I discovered the "Berean study method", per Act 17:11 - Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

This is what the Bible says about the resurrection:

1. The Bible teaches that there will be just one resurrection of the saved.
  • Matt 22:30 - At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.
  • Luke 14:14 - and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.”
  • Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.
  • 1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
These verses all describe the resurrection of the saved in the singular; that means one resurrection.

2. The Bible teaches that there will be one resurrection of the unsaved.
- Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

3. The Bible teaches when the resurrection of the saved will be.
- 1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

So, this single resurrection will occur “when He comes”. The Bible clearly says when that will be.

4. The resurrection of the saved will include EVERY believer from Adam forward.
  • 1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. It is obvious that every person who has believed in Christ do belong to Him.
5. The Bible teaches that the single resurrection of the saved will occur “when He comes” which is shown in 2 verses.
  • 2 Thess 2:1 - Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, The context from ch 1 shows this “coming” is the Second Advent.
  • Rev 20:4,5 4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.
So we see in v.5 that the resurrection of tribulation martyrs is “the first resurrection”. The parentheses at the beginning of v.5 refers to all unbelievers who will be in the second resurrection, which will occur at the end of the Millennial Reign of Christ, for the GWT judgment in Rev 20:11-15.

Rev 20:5 tells us clearly that all believers, or “those who belong to Him” will be resurrected “when He comes” and Rev 20 shows that to be at the end of the Tribulation.

6. Finally, there are no verses that describe Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven ever. This is the foundation for the “pretrib rapture” teaching.

That said, since there are no verses that describe Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven, there is no "rapture", at least as the pretribbers think.

At the singular resurrection of the saved, those who are alive and remain will be "caught up" together with the dead saints and be given glorified bodies. But, since this occurs at the Second Advent, no one is going to heaven. All believers will accompany Jesus Christ to earth for the Millennial reign of King Jesus.
Do my eyes deceive me?

Here's someone who actually knows what they're talking about.

What a refreshing read.

Thanks for posting.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
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I do a lot of pondering about end times and what it’ll look like for the believer. No one in my church wants to talk about it, so I thought I’d bring it here.

I have heard a few theologians proclaim that a pre-trib rapture is false doctrine, and a “lie from the pit of hell”.

I’m a pre-tribber married to a post tribber, and frankly, his arguments for a post tribulational rapture don’t hold water as far as I’m concerned. Perhaps a post-tribber from this forum can make me understand.

I have an open mind. Mostly because I fully expected the rapture to happen last year. The numbers just made sense. 2021 was 73 years since Israel became a nation, leaving 7 years for the tribulation culminating in the 80-year-old-generation mentioned in Psalms.

Regardless, God is angry, and He’s about to punish the entire planet, and I’m persuaded that ours is the generation that will see these things come to pass. With a possible (probable?) WWIII scenario, and end time prophecies jumping off the pages of the Bible, I am fascinated, excited, and a little nervous. I would love to read the thoughts of any post-tribbers on what you think it will look like for believers to go through the tribulation (specifically, the 7 trumpets, seals and bowls of The Revelation.)

Do post-tribbers believe that as God’s elect, we are subject to the same wrath as everyone else? For instance, at some point the earth will be bombarded with 75 lb hailstones (Rev 16:21). Are we subject to God’s wrath in that we will be crushed along with everyone else? Or will they not effect us? When those crazy looking locusts are tormenting the population, are we to be supernaturally protected from them?

If you’re a post-tribber (or even a non-tribber) convince me that I’m wrong. I wouldn’t want to believe God for something that’s never going to happen based on misinterpreted scripture.

Anybody?
Hello Lori
I am a staunch, (as in nonnegotiable :D) pretrib premillenniallist. I think the rapture is one of the most solid biblical doctrines there is in all of the Bible.

Here is something to think about: why would God unfairly impose His own peculiar once for all time devastating wrath upon a peculiar tragically unfortunate generation of Christians?

Hint: He does not. On the contrary there, can be no doubt that God's (Biblically supported) mandate is to DELIVER His people FROM His wrath.

Post-trib theories fall on their face every single time. Which of course is to be expected!
 
L

Live4Him2

Guest
I Thessalonians chapter 1

[1] Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:
[2] Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
[3] We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth;
[4] So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
[5] Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
[6] Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
[7] And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
[8] In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
[9] Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
[10] When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
[11] Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:
[12] That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

The Thessalonian Christians were enduring persecutions and tribulations (vs. 4) or suffering for the kingdom of God’s sake (vs. 5).

Paul told them that God would righteously recompense or repay those who were causing them tribulation with tribulation (vs. 6), and he also foretold them of a future “rest with us”, with this “us” including Paul himself, that would transpire “WHEN the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; WHEN he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) IN THAT DAY (vss. 6-10).

In other words, “in that day” (vs. 10), or on the very same day “when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels” (vs. 7), two things will happen:

1. Jesus will take vengeance, in flaming fire, on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ” (vs. 8).
2. Jesus will be glorified in his saints, and be admired in all them that believe (vs. 9), and the saints, including Paul himself, will enter into his “rest” on that specific “day” (vs. 10), and NOT A SECOND BEFORE “that day” (vs. 10).

THIS is the “day”, contextually, that Paul is speaking of, and there is no 7-year timeframe separating these events (the pre-tribulation rapture hoax), nor is there a 3 ½-year timeframe separating these events (the mid-tribulation rapture hoax).

In fact, according to scripture, the actual time of “great tribulation” is only 3 ½ years, so the proponents of both of the two hoaxes that I just mentioned don’t even attribute the correct timelines to their respective hoaxes.

Anyhow, with the reality that Paul is speaking of a specific “day” before us, we can now look at chapter 2 in context.

We read:

II Thessalonians chapter 2

[1] Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
[2] That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Here, Paul is still talking about the same exact “day” that we just covered or “the day of Christ” (vs. 2).

Yes, at “the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ”, the saints will be “gathered unto him” (vs. 1), and Paul warned the Christians at Thessalonica to “be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand” (vs. 2).

Well, so much for the heretical teaching which is propagated by many which insists that Paul believed in the imminent return of Christ.

In reality, unlike so many professing Christians today, Paul understood that certain events must PRECEDE Christ’s “coming” and “our gathering together unto him” (again, this “our” included the apostle Paul), and he continued on to properly explain what those certain events are.

We read:

[3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
[4] Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
[5] Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

Paul reminded these Thessalonian Christians of the things that he told them when he was previously with them (vs. 5) or to “let no man deceive you by any means: for THAT DAY”, the “day of Christ” (vs. 2) that he was speaking of in context, or the same “day” in which the saints shall enter into “rest” and the wicked shall be punished as we’ve already covered, SHALL NOT COME, except there come a falling away FIRST, AND that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God” (vss. 3-4).

Paul plainly stated that two things must happen FIRST before “the day of Christ” (vs. 2) can come, or truly be “at hand”, or near.

Those two things are as follows:

1. A “falling away” (vs. 3), apostasia in the underlying Greek, or apostasy.
2. The “man of sin” or antichrist must “be revealed” and “sit in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God” (vss. 3-4).

Let me pause to say something very important in relation to point #2.

Unlike many professing Christians today, Paul (and Jesus, the apostles, and the prophets) understood that God, throughout the ages, has been foretelling of a time, at Christ’s second coming, when Jesus will reign over this earth from within a temple in Jerusalem.

For example, we read:

Luke chapter 1

[26] And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,
[27] To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.
[28] And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
[29] And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.
[30] And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
[31] And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
[32] He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
[33] And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Yes, at his second coming, Christ will take his rightful place, as the prophesied “son of David”, upon a throne within a temple in Jerusalem from which he shall reign.

With such being the case, Satan, who has long-desired to receive the worship that is due unto Christ, has also long-desired to sit in this seat which Christ will rightfully claim at his second coming, and Satan will actually have that seat, albeit for a very short period of time (3 ½ years), in the person of the antichrist or “that man of sin…the son of perdition” (II Thess. 2:3) PRIOR TO Christ’s second coming.

Sad to say, although Paul said to “let no man deceive you by any means” (II Thess. 2:3) in relation to the events which must transpire BEFORE Christ returns, multitudes of professing Christians believe and teach things totally contrary to what Paul (and others) actually believed and taught.

Continuing on in II Thessalonians chapter 2, we read:

[6] And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

THIS is where most professing Christians take a wrong turn or basically fall off a cliff and into all sorts of erroneous beliefs.

IN CONTEXT, who is this “he” who is being “withheld” from being “revealed in his time”?

Is it Christ who will be “revealed from heaven” (II Thess. 1:7) or is it “that man of sin”, the antichrist, who must also “be revealed” (II Thess. 2:3)?

THE CORRECT ANSWER to this most important question is Christ, and NOT the antichrist.

In other words, in everything that Paul said leading up to this comment, he was reminding the Christians at Thessalonica what events must transpire BEFORE “the day of Christ” can come, and these are the things that were “withholding” Christ from “being revealed in his time”.

Again, the verse begins with “And NOW ye know what withholdeth” (vs. 6).

Why “NOW ye know”?

Well, because Paul had just finished explaining to them the precise things which were “withholding” CHRIST from being “revealed in his time” (vs. 6).

If anyone misses THIS REALITY, then they’re bound to come away with a faulty understanding of the verses which immediately follow.

Again, BOTH a falling away or apostasy AND a revealing of the antichrist MUST PRECEDE Christ’s “being revealed in his time”.

(Continued in my next post)
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
22,696
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As the Body of Christ . . . Yes!
Correct. Judgment does NOT befall Christians. Christians are summarily acquitted of all of their sins. First Thessalonians 1:10 and Revelation 3:10 make it perfectly clear that we are to be delivered from the time and place of Gods peculiar wrath during the 70th week of Daniel.
 
L

Live4Him2

Guest
(Continued from my previous post)

In light of THE FACT that the antichrist’s coming must PRECEDE Christ’s second coming (he only comes twice, and he already came once), and in light of THE FACT that the antichrist hadn’t yet come and was therefore WITHHOLDING or HOLDING BACK Christ’s “revealing” or second coming, Paul went on to say:

[7] For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
[8] And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
[9] Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
[10] And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

Paul rightly noted that “the mystery of iniquity doth already work”, or that “the spirit of antichrist” was “already in the world” (I John 4:3).

In other words, in the same manner in which “the mystery of godliness” (I Tim. 3:16) pertains to Christ, “the mystery of iniquity” pertains to the antichrist.

Again, although “the mystery of iniquity” or “the spirit of antichrist” was “already” at “work” in Paul’s day, “he”, THE ANTICHRIST HIMSELF, “who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way”.

We need to pause here to clarify a couple of things.

1. “Letteth” is an old English word (katechō in the underlying Greek) that means “to hold back” or, as we’ve already been discussing, “to withhold”.

You can verify this for yourself here:

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2722&t=KJV

With such being the case, just for the sake of clarity, let’s look again at verse 7 with clarifying parentheses added by me:

[7] For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth (withholds) will let (withhold), until he be taken out of the way.

Paul is still talking about the very same “withholder” or THE ANTICHRIST who is “withholding” Christ’s revelation from heaven because he needs to be revealed FIRST.

You’re probably thinking to yourself right about now:

Wait a minute! Wait a minute! What about the “until he be taken out of the way” part?

If what you’re saying is true, then how the heck is the antichrist going to be “taken out of the way”?

Well, I’m glad that you asked…even though you didn’t.

This brings us to clarifying point #2.

2. “Until he be taken out of the way” is a HORRIFIC MISTRANSLATION of the underlying Greek text.

Here’s the deal.

I doubt that there is a stauncher advocate of the King James Version of the Bible anywhere on the face of this earth than me.

That said, I’m really much more an advocate of the underlying Greek from which it is translated than I am of its translation into English at times.

In this particular instance, this translation of “taken out of the way” is a HORRIFIC MISTRANSLATION OF THE UNDERLYING GREEK, and, as a direct result of THIS REALITY that I’m about to prove, all sorts of heretical beliefs presently exist within professing Christendom.

Okay, so I made an allegation, and the burden of proof is upon me, so here we go.

The underlying Greek word which is here translated as “taken” is ginomai, and it appears 676 times in the Textus Receptus or in the underlying Greek text of the King James Bible.

In every single instance where this Greek word is translated into English in the KJB EXCEPT FOR THIS ONE, it is translated into such words as “be”, “become”, “come”, “come to pass”, etc., etc., etc., and you can verify that for yourself here:

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1096&t=KJV

In other words, it ALWAYS pertains to something “coming”, or “appearing in history”, or “coming upon the stage”, and it never, and I mean NEVER, pertains to something “leaving”, “disappearing”, or “being taken away”.

NEVER.

Why in the world it is translated as “taken” in this particular verse of scripture is a mystery to me, but it’s truly NOT a proper translation by any stretch of one’s imagination.

Furthermore, the translation of “out of the way” leaves much to be desired as well.

Here, the underlying Greek word which is translated as “way” is mesos, and this Greek word appears 61 times in the Textus Receptus or in the underlying Greek text of the KJB.

In two thirds of its appearances, it is translated into English as “midst”, and elsewhere it is translated into English as “among” or “from among”, and you can verify that for yourself here:

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3319&t=KJV

With this information before us, what is translated as “taken out of the way” should really be translated as “appears in the midst”, or “comes from among”, or something similar.

Again, in the underlying Greek, this is how this truly reads, and I’ve provided you with the links whereby you can verify this for yourself.

With such being the case, here is how II Thessalonians 2:7 should actually read:

[7] For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth (withholds) will let (withhold), until he be taken out of the way (appears in the midst, or comes from among, or something similar). – Parentheses mine

Of course, if we translate this verse properly, then it makes perfect sense.

Not only in relation to everything that Paul had been saying up to this point in relation to how the antichrist was withholding Christ from being revealed because he must be revealed first, but also in relation to what Paul continued on to say.

Again, we read:

[7] For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
[8] And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
[9] Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
[10] And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

If we properly understand that verse 7 is talking about the antichrist “letting” or withholding Christ from being revealed because he, the antichrist, hasn’t “appeared in the midst” or “come from among” yet, then it makes perfect sense that Paul went on to say “and THEN shall that wicked be revealed” because this is precisely when the antichrist will be revealed.

Here’s something else that we need to understand to help put this whole “rapture to heaven for the marriage supper of the Lamb” nonsense to rest.

Those who teach two more appearings of Christ, one allegedly only in the air, and one where he actually touches down upon this earth, play games with Greek words in order to deceive the saints and promote their false doctrine.

In other words, they claim that Christ’s “parousia” and his “epiphaneia” are two separate and distinct appearings, but Paul put that heretical nonsense to rest in what we just read.

What do I mean by this?

Let’s look at verse 8 again.

We read:

[8] And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

The underlying Greek word which is here translated as “brightness” is epiphaneia, and the underlying Greek word which is here translated as “coming” is parousia, and you can verify that for yourself here:

https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/2th/2/8/p0/t_conc_1118008

In other words, Christ’s epiphaneia and Christ’s parousia ARE ONE AND THE SAME EVENT, and they both pertain to his second coming because, as I rightly stated earlier, he’s only coming TWICE, and he already came once:

Hebrews chapter 9

[27] And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
[28] So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Anyhow, in the light of everything that I’ve shared here which anyone can easily verify for themselves, here is my paraphrase of what Paul actually said:

II Thessalonians chapter 2

[1] Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
[2] That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
[3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day (the day of Christ) shall not come, except there come a falling away (apostasy) first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition (the antichrist);
[4] Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
[5] Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
[6] And now ye know what withholdeth that he (Jesus) might be revealed in his time.
[7] For the mystery of iniquity (spirit of antichrist) doth already work: only he (the antichrist himself) who now letteth (withholds Christ from being revealed because he must be revealed first) will let (withhold), until he be taken out of the way (appears in the midst).
[8] And then shall that Wicked (the antichrist) be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness (epiphaneia) of his coming (Parousia)

THIS is what Paul actually said, and it not only makes perfect sense, but it also perfectly aligns itself with what he and others taught in relation to the end times elsewhere.

Who has ears to hear, let them hear.
 
Mar 4, 2020
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Just saw this thread, and happy to oblige! I was raised in a Christian home and believed from an early age that Jesus will come and take believers to heaven (rapture).

Then I discovered the "Berean study method", per Act 17:11 - Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

This is what the Bible says about the resurrection:

1. The Bible teaches that there will be just one resurrection of the saved.
  • Matt 22:30 - At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.
  • Luke 14:14 - and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.”
  • Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.
  • 1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
These verses all describe the resurrection of the saved in the singular; that means one resurrection.

2. The Bible teaches that there will be one resurrection of the unsaved.
- Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

3. The Bible teaches when the resurrection of the saved will be.
- 1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

So, this single resurrection will occur “when He comes”. The Bible clearly says when that will be.

4. The resurrection of the saved will include EVERY believer from Adam forward.
  • 1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. It is obvious that every person who has believed in Christ do belong to Him.
5. The Bible teaches that the single resurrection of the saved will occur “when He comes” which is shown in 2 verses.
  • 2 Thess 2:1 - Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, The context from ch 1 shows this “coming” is the Second Advent.
  • Rev 20:4,5 4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.
So we see in v.5 that the resurrection of tribulation martyrs is “the first resurrection”. The parentheses at the beginning of v.5 refers to all unbelievers who will be in the second resurrection, which will occur at the end of the Millennial Reign of Christ, for the GWT judgment in Rev 20:11-15.

Rev 20:5 tells us clearly that all believers, or “those who belong to Him” will be resurrected “when He comes” and Rev 20 shows that to be at the end of the Tribulation.

6. Finally, there are no verses that describe Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven ever. This is the foundation for the “pretrib rapture” teaching.

That said, since there are no verses that describe Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven, there is no "rapture", at least as the pretribbers think.

At the singular resurrection of the saved, those who are alive and remain will be "caught up" together with the dead saints and be given glorified bodies. But, since this occurs at the Second Advent, no one is going to heaven. All believers will accompany Jesus Christ to earth for the Millennial reign of King Jesus.
A singular resurrection of the saved is unlikely due to Revelation 20:5 referring to the post-millennial kingdom resurrection as the first resurrection. If it is a resurrection of the unsaved, then those resurrected bodies go somewhere, but probably not to the great white throne judgement, since Revelation 20 places the GWTJ after the battle of Gog and Magog.

If they go to earth, they must be a apart of Satan's army as described in Revelation 20:7-10. There are no other possibilities aside from being in Satan's army or with the saints.

That would mean when they are destroyed by fire from heaven in Rev. 20:9 that they need to be resurrected a second time in Revelation 20:12, meaning their second death would actually be their third death. This is unscriptural.

There's no other possibility, but to divide the first resurrection of saints into different groups separated by 1,000 years.

Revelation 20:5
5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
 

Marilyn

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Jul 27, 2021
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When we die in this life we go here where Jesus is ruling

“but ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven,

and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭12:22-24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

in the end of this world that city is going to return to the new earth and once again like in Eden Gods full presence will be upon earth with man

“And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:1-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬
Hi Pilgrimshope,

So glad we agree that we will be where Jesus is ruling from.

Good scripture there. Notice that there is Mount Zion AND the city. Mount Zion on earth was where king David ruled from and the city was further down. Then in the third heaven Mount Zion is where the King rules over all and we are with Him.

The city , however (the other part of the heavenly Jerusalem) comes down out of heaven FROM God.

You see there are TWO parts to the heavenly Jerusalem - Mount Zion AND the city.

1. Mount Zion - the King`s seat of power and those who rule with Him.
2. The City - which comes down and near the earth with those who rule there.
 

Marilyn

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Jul 27, 2021
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When i said, Yes my Sister = i was agreeing with you.

We become the ONE NEW MAN when we are transformed into His Image at His Second Coming.

Until that DAY Arrives, we are His Bride and have been betrothed to Him.

For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Hi David,

Glad we agree about the NEW MAN.

But do you see what you have written now?

`we are His Bride...` `For you are SONS....`
 

Marilyn

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Jul 27, 2021
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Very true now where is God's throne said to be?


Revelation 21:2-3
New International Version


2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God.
Hi RS,

Notice that the city comes DOWN out of heaven FROM God. God dwells with His people there by His Spirit, as He is SPIRIT.
 
L

Live4Him2

Guest
Hello Lori
I am a staunch, (as in nonnegotiable :D) pretrib premillenniallist. I think the rapture is one of the most solid biblical doctrines there is in all of the Bible.

Here is something to think about: why would God unfairly impose His own peculiar once for all time devastating wrath upon a peculiar tragically unfortunate generation of Christians?

Hint: He does not. On the contrary there, can be no doubt that God's (Biblically supported) mandate is to DELIVER His people FROM His wrath.

Post-trib theories fall on their face every single time. Which of course is to be expected!
What a bunch of nonsense.

For starters, the great tribulation is THE WRATH OF SATAN, and NOT the wrath of God:

Revelation chapter 12

[7] And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
[8] And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
[9] And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
[10] And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
[11] And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
[12] Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
[13] And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
[14] And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

The great tribulation, which lasts "but a short time" (vs. 12), or "for a time, and times, and half a time" (vs. 14), or for 3 1/2 years begins when Michael and his angels defeat Satan and his angels and cast them down to this earth. Having been cast down, Satan "has great wrath because he knoweth that he hath but a short time" or 3 1/2 years.

When this battle takes place (it's yet future), then what Daniel prophesied in relation to the same will be fulfilled:

Daniel chapter 12

[1] And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Again, this yet future battle between Michael and his angels and Satan and his angels will result in Satan and his angels being cast down to this earth, and Satan will come down with great wrath because he knows that he has but a short time (3 1/2 years).

THIS is "the time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time" (Dan. 12:1) or this is the beginning of the great tribulation which, again, is a time of SATAN'S WRATH, and NOT God's wrath.

Furthermore, as I've previously documented here, and as I'll document again now, as the 7 vials of God's wrath are being poured out upon this earth, Jesus CLEARLY hasn't yet come as a thief.

We read:

Revelation chapter 16

[1] And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
[2] And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
[3] And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
[4] And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
[5] And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
[6] For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
[7] And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
[8] And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
[9] And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
[10] And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
[11] And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.
[12] And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
[13] And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
[14] For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
[15] Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
[16] And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
[17] And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

Here, we clearly see the seven angels pouring out the seven vials of the wrath of God upon the earth (vs. 1).

As the first vial of God's wrath is poured out, "the mark of the beast" and "his image" are both already here (vs. 2).

As the fifth vial of God's wrath is poured out, "the seat of the beast, and his kingdom" are both already here (vs. 10).

As the sixth vial of God's wrath is poured out, "three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of THE DRAGON, and out of the mouth of THE BEAST, and out of the mouth of THE FALSE PROPHET" (vss. 12-13) because all three of them are already here. Not only this, but these "three unclean spirits" (vs. 13) are "the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty" (vs. 14) or to the battle of "Armageddon" (vs. 16).

Now, look what JESUS says during the timeframe between the pouring out of the sixth and seventh vials of the wrath of God:

"Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame." (vs. 15)

In other words, HE HASN'T YET COME AS A THIEF UP UNTIL THIS POINT IN TIME.

For this reason, he is still heard admonishing his followers to "watch and keep their garments".

THIS IS THE TRUTH.

It is the believers in the pre-tribulation hoax who truly fall flat on their faces every time.

You, and several others here, need to renounce that SATANICALLY-INSPIRED HERESY and to stop misrepresenting Christ and his word, even as I did myself more than 30 years ago after the Lord Himself THOROUGHLY REBUKED ME for not only believing that LIE, but for also propagating it to others.

Who has ears to hear, let them hear.
 
Aug 2, 2021
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Hi David,

Glad we agree about the NEW MAN.

But do you see what you have written now?

`we are His Bride...` `For you are SONS....`
Oh Yes, I have always known it as well.
So put on your thinking cap dear Sister because God knows what HE is talking about and it is for us to find out.

It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter. Proverbs 25:2

Are you a king and priest in the Kingdom? If Yes, begin your search, because we are BOTH His Bride and Sons of Glory waiting to be revealed............
 
Aug 2, 2021
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What a bunch of nonsense.

For starters, the great tribulation is THE WRATH OF SATAN, and NOT the wrath of God:

Revelation chapter 12

[7] And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
[8] And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
[9] And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
[10] And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
[11] And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
[12] Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
[13] And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
[14] And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

The great tribulation, which lasts "but a short time" (vs. 12), or "for a time, and times, and half a time" (vs. 14), or for 3 1/2 years begins when Michael and his angels defeat Satan and his angels and cast them down to this earth. Having been cast down, Satan "has great wrath because he knoweth that he hath but a short time" or 3 1/2 years.

When this battle takes place (it's yet future), then what Daniel prophesied in relation to the same will be fulfilled:

Daniel chapter 12

[1] And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Again, this yet future battle between Michael and his angels and Satan and his angels will result in Satan and his angels being cast down to this earth, and Satan will come down with great wrath because he knows that he has but a short time (3 1/2 years).

THIS is "the time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time" (Dan. 12:1) or this is the beginning of the great tribulation which, again, is a time of SATAN'S WRATH, and NOT God's wrath.

Furthermore, as I've previously documented here, and as I'll document again now, as the 7 vials of God's wrath are being poured out upon this earth, Jesus CLEARLY hasn't yet come as a thief.

We read:

Revelation chapter 16

[1] And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
[2] And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
[3] And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
[4] And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
[5] And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
[6] For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
[7] And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
[8] And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
[9] And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
[10] And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
[11] And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.
[12] And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
[13] And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
[14] For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
[15] Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
[16] And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
[17] And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

Here, we clearly see the seven angels pouring out the seven vials of the wrath of God upon the earth (vs. 1).

As the first vial of God's wrath is poured out, "the mark of the beast" and "his image" are both already here (vs. 2).

As the fifth vial of God's wrath is poured out, "the seat of the beast, and his kingdom" are both already here (vs. 10).

As the sixth vial of God's wrath is poured out, "three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of THE DRAGON, and out of the mouth of THE BEAST, and out of the mouth of THE FALSE PROPHET" (vss. 12-13) because all three of them are already here. Not only this, but these "three unclean spirits" (vs. 13) are "the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty" (vs. 14) or to the battle of "Armageddon" (vs. 16).

Now, look what JESUS says during the timeframe between the pouring out of the sixth and seventh vials of the wrath of God:

"Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame." (vs. 15)

In other words, HE HASN'T YET COME AS A THIEF UP UNTIL THIS POINT IN TIME.

For this reason, he is still heard admonishing his followers to "watch and keep their garments".

THIS IS THE TRUTH.

It is the believers in the pre-tribulation hoax who truly fall flat on their faces every time.

You, and several others here, need to renounce that SATANICALLY-INSPIRED HERESY and to stop misrepresenting Christ and his word, even as I did myself more than 30 years ago after the Lord Himself THOROUGHLY REBUKED ME for not only believing that LIE, but for also propagating it to others.

Who has ears to hear, let them hear.
Ask him who the "falling away" is, as mentioned in 2 Thess ch2
 

Marilyn

Well-known member
Jul 27, 2021
1,120
244
63
Oh Yes, I have always known it as well.
So put on your thinking cap dear Sister because God knows what HE is talking about and it is for us to find out.

It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter. Proverbs 25:2

Are you a king and priest in the Kingdom? If Yes, begin your search, because we are BOTH His Bride and Sons of Glory waiting to be revealed............
mmmm Did you realise there is NO marriage in heaven? (Luke 20: 35)