John 3:9-18

[DavidTree]

“they also may be sanctified by the truth."


That’s what believing the gospel is about

“Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.”
‭‭John‬ ‭18:37‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:31-32‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:63‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Part of it is to get baptized believing the gospel ( christs word and his death and resurrection are all the gospel ) everything that’s found in Matthew mark Luke and John those are the gospel we’re meant to believe the gospel and get baptized that covers it all of we ac to ally believe the gospel including christs word of truth this in no way changes the meaning or importance of baptism ot fully agrees with it

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭

Jesus said that in the gospel and he was sent to preach the gospel first in Israel and then sent them to spread it to the world including baptism for remission of sins


“Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, and saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1:14-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭28:19-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

here’s Peter filled with the Holy Ghost beginning that commission first he preached Jesus and his death and resurrection to them and then says

“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,

and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:38‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It’s never going to change believing his word will always sanctify the heart and mind and life over time , getting baptized because we believe he shed his blood for remission of sins is always going to be the same act of faith , and receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost is always going to be the same for any who the lord calls

“Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭13:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

baptism hasn’t changed it’s the e same as John established , receiving the soirit hasn’t changed it’s the same Jesus preached and gives. And the blood hasn’t changed it’s the same that flowed down the cross at Calvary

AMEN - God is still pouring out the baptism in the Holy Spirit for those who seek Him.

My Brother, just read Acts and pray to the Lord Jesus Christ = Same Yesterday, Today and Forever.

The error of John McArthur is in the book of Acts.
God made sure that it was there for all to read and see so that we may know the Truth.

 

[Thewatchman]

lol yes because I just believe what scripture says ,and getting you to accept plain and basic scripture that is what we’re supposed to actually believe seems like mission impossible

Pilgrimshop I will ask you again show me the scripture that says Jesus died on the cross so that we could get dunked into a tank of water for the forgiveness of sin. 2. I got saved while serving in the Navy; there was not a place to get baptized on board ship, what would have happened to me if I would have gotten killed in a shipboard accident or something else. I have done a lot of street witnessing we would led people to Jesus right there on the street; we could not baptize them what would have happened to them if they got into a traffic accident, or something else happened to them. What about the person that makes a death bed confession does that not count because they never got baptized? As I have said before baptism is a good thing for a christian it is the outward and public confession of your faith in Jesus, your believeth in the death and resurrection. I am not saying not to get baptized; I have been.

Pilgrimshop You thank that the teaching of the traditions of men spoken of by Jesus in Mark 7:6-13 Is the bible telling us we should just invent our own path?
He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
7Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. 10For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death: 11But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free. 12And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother; 13Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
He was talking about the traditions of religion making void the word. Just like water baptism is a requirement for salvation.
That Jesus will return at some other time than the 7th trump. Flesh bodies go to heaven. We could keep this list going on and on.
If you truly don't understand the traditions of men make void the word of God and are not trying to push my buttons; You need to find a new teacher, pastor. . . because they are not leading you to good pasture. I am not judging I am asking if they really teach you that it is against Gods word which I just posted from Mark chapter 7 and we could go to other places.

Whose Sins did the baptism of John take away? Not Jesuse's He did not have any. Peter said REPENT that is the first and only stipulation Jesus gave us for the remission of sin. What did Jesus say to the thief on the cross? Lets you and me come down off this cross so you can get baptized so today you can be with me in paradise. Jesus said this day you shall be with Me in paradise.

Oof brother my spirit is worn out on this discussion.

“For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

it’s much simpler than what’s being made out in this thread. Your acting as if I’m saying “ water saves without the spirit “

I’m saying this it’s simple we believe this

“for this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭26:28‬ ‭KJV‬‬

And so we do this because we believe he does for our sins

“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,

and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:38‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It’s simple faith isn’t complex it believes what God said , believes what God said to do and acts in that same faith.

if the lord appeared to you and said “ David there is ten million dollars buried three feet down in the very center of your back yard

there’s a new shovel in your garage

fond of it up and posses it it’s a gift from me to you


would you then begin to say “ lord the shovel has no meaning or purpose , lord I don’t need to dig it up you told
Me it was there already

faith is belief of just what God said first he says a truth “ Jesus died for remission of sins “ then he says “ get baptized in his name for remission of sins “ then he says “ you will receive the gift of the Holy Ghost “

there’s absolutely no reason to argue that baptism isn’t part of believing what he said he said it it’s on us to hear and believe and act.

but you have the last word it’s exhausting going back and forth over one of the most basic principles of the gospel

 

[kenallen]

David Tree and Thewatchman. I thank you got it right because I read and reread this I see verse 4 Nicodemus saith unto Him how can a man be born again when he is old? Can he enter his mothers womb and be born? Verse 5. Jesus answered him Verily, verily I say unto you, except a man be born of water(his first birth from his mother) and of the spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
2 Corinthians 5:17 ESV / 12 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.
Ezekiel 36:26-27 ESV / 10 helpful votes
And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.
Romans 6:23 ESV / 5 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 8:15-16 ESV / 4 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
1 Peter 1:23 ESV / 2 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
Since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God;
Igot these verses from open bible info.

 

[kenallen]

Davidtree thanks for the support.

The answer lies in 1 John and why the Apostle John wrote it.
Remember John also wrote the Gospel of John = ch3
Therefore the key is to know why he said/wrote it.

i can answer you directly but it is better for you to discover these things.

Last clue: There are Saints in Heaven who never were baptized in water, HOWEVER, there is not one Saint in Heaven who was not born of water(womb/flesh) and of the Spirit.

I like that you want to make me work for the answer and not just give it to me.

 

[EyeWitness]

The subject of this discussion began when Jesus told Nicodemus that a person must be born again in order to enter into the kingdom of Heaven. A person must be born of the Holy Spirit and of the water. "The water" is water baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus. The Pharisees strongly opposed the baptism of John and the baptism of Christ.

 

[DavidTree]

The subject of this discussion began when Jesus told Nicodemus that a person must be born again in order to enter into the kingdom of Heaven. A person must be born of the Holy Spirit and of the water. "The water" is water baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus. The Pharisees strongly opposed the baptism of John and the baptism of Christ.

The LORD Jesus never said water baptism is a must to be Born-Again.

Read John 3:1-18 again and post where Jesus said you must be water batised to be born -again.

 

[DavidTree]

The subject of this discussion began when Jesus told Nicodemus that a person must be born again in order to enter into the kingdom of Heaven. A person must be born of the Holy Spirit and of the water. "The water" is water baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus. The Pharisees strongly opposed the baptism of John and the baptism of Christ.

Corrections made:

The LORD Jesus never said water baptism is a must to be Born-Again.

Read John 3:1-21 again and post where Jesus said you must be water baptised to be born -again.

 

[LoveBrokeThru]

yeah it was the water of baptism Jesus was talking about s.

Jesus is talking to Nicodemus about being born ....again.

That is not talking about being water baptized, as you are not born, when you are water baptized.
You are BORN, when you come out of your MOTHER.

Jesus then tells you that you must be BORN.........AGAIN.

This isn't difficult to understand, unless you have been mind blinded by a water cult that has taught that being dunked in water is a BIRTH......which of course is simply ignorant to believe.

Its interesting that 2000 Yr after Jesus explained 2 "births"......the natural and the spiritual..... you have cults that try to change this into their idea of water baptism.
And many people are deceived by them.
Many millions, actually.

 

[JBTN]

This is a good discussion.

In my studies on this I see a connection to some other passages that I haven’t seen mentioned yet. Wondering if anyone has any thoughts?

In John 3:3 Jesus told Nicodemus he could not see the kingdom of God unless he was born again.

The idea of being born again also comes up in 1 Peter.

“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭1:3-5‬ ‭ESV‬‬
https://bible.com/bible/59/1pe.1.3-5.ESV

“since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God;”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭1:23‬ ‭ESV‬‬
https://bible.com/bible/59/1pe.1.23.ESV

Verse 23 can be used to make a compelling case that the water in John 3:5 is the word. But I see something else here too. The mention of the perishable seed and the imperishable seed. That reminds me of I Corinthians 15:35-57. In this passage we see this.

“So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable. It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual. The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:42-47‬ ‭ESV‬‬
https://bible.com/bible/59/1co.15.42-46.ESV

Notice how this discussion ties the natural body to the spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual. If there cannot be a spiritual body without a natural body then it makes sense that the water in John 3:5 may be referring to natural birth. That takes away the ability of one to say it doesn’t make any sense for the water to be natural birth because everybody has been born.

This seems to fit the context of Jesus‘ interaction with Nicodemus in John 3:5.

 

[EyeWitness]

The LORD Jesus never said water baptism is a must to be Born-Again.

Read John 3:1-18 again and post where Jesus said you must be water batised to be born -again.

"Born of the water" is water baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. Only the Holy Spirit can reveal that to man.

 

[DavidTree]

"Born of the water" is water baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. Only the Holy Spirit can reveal that to man.

In John 3:1-21 please post the scripture where Jesus says, you must be water baptized.

 

[pottersclay]

Remission of sins = water baptism......agreed??

I think what we need to do here is to see what the word remission really means.
It could mean temporal....permanent......who has a view here?

The Holy Spirit can be with a person...in a person....over a person.....but also seal a person.
Jesus said "the Spirit of the Lord is upon me"
The apostles were "filled with the Holy Spirit.
We are to worship "in Spirit and truth.
John in the book of revelation "was in the Spirit on the Lords day?

Lets examine this water vrs Spirit baptism and put a full report on my desk in tomorrow morning.

By the way Jesus did say "Ask and you will receive.

 

[JBTN]

Remission of sins = water baptism......agreed??

I think what we need to do here is to see what the word remission really means.
It could mean temporal....permanent......who has a view here?

The Holy Spirit can be with a person...in a person....over a person.....but also seal a person.
Jesus said "the Spirit of the Lord is upon me"
The apostles were "filled with the Holy Spirit.
We are to worship "in Spirit and truth.
John in the book of revelation "was in the Spirit on the Lords day?

Lets examine this water vrs Spirit baptism and put a full report on my desk in tomorrow morning.

By the way Jesus did say "Ask and you will receive.

Pottersclay

I put this together a few days ago in another thread. Curious what your thoughts might be on this viewpoint.

These verses tell us what we must do.

“Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭5:1‬ ‭ESV‬‬
https://bible.com/bible/59/1jn.5.1.ESV

“I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭5:13‬ ‭ESV‬‬
https://bible.com/bible/59/1jn.5.13.ESV

There is a baptism (immersion) that has taken place in both of these passages. It’s not a physical water immersion. It is this.

“In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭1:13‬ ‭ESV‬‬
https://bible.com/bible/59/eph.1.13.ESV

We are sealed (think immersed) in Christ by the Holy Spirit when we believe. Think about how 1 Peter 3:21 tells us it’s not the putting off of the filth of the flesh.

You can see it here too.

“For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭12:13‬ ‭ESV‬‬
https://bible.com/bible/59/1co.12.13.ESV

baptized into one body = immersed into one body. Same concept.

“In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭2:11-12‬ ‭ESV‬‬
https://bible.com/bible/59/col.2.11-12.ESV

Our immersion into Christ was made without hands. When one person immerses another into water hands are used.

“For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:27‬ ‭ESV‬‬
https://bible.com/bible/59/gal.3.27.ESV

Think immersed into Christ like we saw in Ephesians 1:13. The CJB translation actually says that. After all, the verse doesn’t mention water.

“because as many of you as were immersed into the Messiah have clothed yourselves with the Messiah, in whom”
‭‭Galatians (Gal)‬ ‭3:27‬ ‭CJB‬‬
https://bible.com/bible/1275/gal.3.27.CJB

Romans 6:3

“Don’t you know that those of us who have been immersed into the Messiah Yeshua have been immersed into his death?”
‭‭Romans (Rom)‬ ‭6:3‬ ‭CJB‬‬
https://bible.com/bible/1275/rom.6.3.CJB

If you read Acts 2:38 very closely considering the Greek words, you may end up with something like this from the CJB translation.

“Kefa answered them, “Turn from sin, return to God, and each of you be immersed on the authority of Yeshua the Messiah into forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Ruach HaKodesh!”
‭‭Acts of Emissaries of Yeshua (Act)‬ ‭2:38‬ ‭CJB‬‬
https://bible.com/bible/1275/act.2.38.CJB

Immersed into forgiveness of sins, not into water.

Jesus said this.

“Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24 ‭ESV‬‬
https://bible.com/bible/59/jhn.5.24.ESV

 

[EyeWitness]

In John 3:1-21 please post the scripture where Jesus says, you must be water baptized.

Haven't you read in Paul's writings that in water baptism we are joined to the death, burial, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus? How could one be saved without being resurrected in the Resurrection?

 

[pottersclay]

Pottersclay

I put this together a few days ago in another thread. Curious what your thoughts might be on this viewpoint.

These verses tell us what we must do.

“Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭5:1‬ ‭ESV‬‬
https://bible.com/bible/59/1jn.5.1.ESV

“I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭5:13‬ ‭ESV‬‬
https://bible.com/bible/59/1jn.5.13.ESV

There is a baptism (immersion) that has taken place in both of these passages. It’s not a physical water immersion. It is this.

“In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭1:13‬ ‭ESV‬‬
https://bible.com/bible/59/eph.1.13.ESV

We are sealed (think immersed) in Christ by the Holy Spirit when we believe. Think about how 1 Peter 3:21 tells us it’s not the putting off of the filth of the flesh.

You can see it here too.

“For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭12:13‬ ‭ESV‬‬
https://bible.com/bible/59/1co.12.13.ESV

baptized into one body = immersed into one body. Same concept.

“In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭2:11-12‬ ‭ESV‬‬
https://bible.com/bible/59/col.2.11-12.ESV

Our immersion into Christ was made without hands. When one person immerses another into water hands are used.

“For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:27‬ ‭ESV‬‬
https://bible.com/bible/59/gal.3.27.ESV

Think immersed into Christ like we saw in Ephesians 1:13. The CJB translation actually says that. After all, the verse doesn’t mention water.

“because as many of you as were immersed into the Messiah have clothed yourselves with the Messiah, in whom”
‭‭Galatians (Gal)‬ ‭3:27‬ ‭CJB‬‬
https://bible.com/bible/1275/gal.3.27.CJB

Romans 6:3

“Don’t you know that those of us who have been immersed into the Messiah Yeshua have been immersed into his death?”
‭‭Romans (Rom)‬ ‭6:3‬ ‭CJB‬‬
https://bible.com/bible/1275/rom.6.3.CJB

If you read Acts 2:38 very closely considering the Greek words, you may end up with something like this from the CJB translation.

“Kefa answered them, “Turn from sin, return to God, and each of you be immersed on the authority of Yeshua the Messiah into forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Ruach HaKodesh!”
‭‭Acts of Emissaries of Yeshua (Act)‬ ‭2:38‬ ‭CJB‬‬
https://bible.com/bible/1275/act.2.38.CJB

Immersed into forgiveness of sins, not into water.

Jesus said this.

“Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24 ‭ESV‬‬
https://bible.com/bible/59/jhn.5.24.ESV

This is exactly what im looking for. Many debates here end on a "you beleive what you beleive" thats not what the written word is to do. What is the truth? Good post my friend lets see if any have a come back on your findings.
Scripture tells us "thy word is truth". But who excepts it?

 

[DavidTree]

Haven't you read in Paul's writings that in water baptism we are joined to the death, burial, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus? How could one be saved without being resurrected in the Resurrection?

i know all about water baptism in the Scripture and just as you pointed out here, it is an outward symbolic identification with the death, burial and resurrection of our LORD - amen.

An outward act, symbolic only, we accept it by faith in the Body of Christ for what it is = an outward act that we identify with to Christ.

Water baptism cannot save us, and this is confirmed by the HOLY SPIRIT who does not look upon our flesh to see if we have been water baptized.

The HOLY SPIRIT is INWARD, circumcising our hearts unto God and bringing forth the NEW BIRTH which is 100% PURELY INWARD.

Have you never read what our LORD said about eating His flesh and drinking His blood???the reponse
How His disciples almost walked away from Him because of it?

What was the words of Christ in response to the deep troubling concern of His disciples:

When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you?
What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?
It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing.
The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

Focus on the Spirit and the Life of Christ.

 

[EyeWitness]

How does one accept with faith that which is only symbolic? Do I believe in symbols, or the risen Christ? You accept his flesh and his blood. It is not a symbol to you but reality. I accept his water baptism as reality also. His word is spirit and truth. His word is not a symbol. He did not come to give us magnetic symbols to hang on the refrigerator.

 

[DavidTree]

How does one accept with faith that which is only symbolic? Do I believe in symbols, or the risen Christ? You accept his flesh and his blood. It is not a symbol to you but reality. I accept his water baptism as reality also. His word is spirit and truth. His word is not a symbol. He did not come to give us magnetic symbols to hang on the refrigerator.

Your post is incongruent with scripture.

Jesus said: "eat My flesh and drink My blood" = 100% SYMBOLIC for HE says "the flesh profits nothing" = NO VALUE to the SPIRIT.

Mixing scripture up to prove one's point is a failed tactic.

The SPIRIT is the WAY - not symbolic water baptism, of which i have partaken in according to the Word and now follow the SPIRIT.

Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.

Myself and many thousands/millions of other Saints were Born-Again before we were water baptized.

"God is Spirit and they that worship Him must worship in Spirit and Truth."

Never place your confidence in outward ritual that pertains to the flesh - it is the Spirit that gives Life.