Pentecostalism's sketchy origins

[DavidTree]

The oil in this passage doesn't represent the Holy Spirit, it's symbolic of preparedness. The entire passage is about being prepared because once the Lord comes He won't wait around. Those who had plenty of oil were prepared; those who didn't weren't.

Oil is a common symbol for the Holy Spirit but in this passage it doesn't symbolize the Holy Spirit. You can't go and "buy" more of the Holy Spirit.

100% TRUTH = you cannot buy the Holy Spirit = TRUTH

100% TRUTH = "this is about preparedness"

You are still missing, in the PARABLE, the LORD'S requirement for "preparedness"...........

Matt 25:1-13 is a PARABLE, therefore you need to uncover the meaning of "go to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.’".

 

[DavidTree]

I don't understand the logic you are using here. If the gift of interpretation of tongues in 1 Cor 12 - 14 is a supernatural gift of the Spirit then it has to be analyzed in that context.

If you are saying that those lost people in the crowd on the day of Pentecost who heard and understood them did not have the gift of interpretation (which I agree) then you have conceded that there was a difference between what happened with them on the Day of Pentecost and what Paul is talking about when he speaks of a Holy Spirit gift of interpretation of tongues which the foreigners on the day of Pentecost did not have.

If you are saying that Paul was not talking about a "Holy Spirit Gift of interpretation of tongues" then I agree that the "case" is closed between you and I because there is no use in continuing with such dishonest exegesis, as it will accomplish nothing and only heap judgment upon the one who engages in it.

If our motivation is not love and edification we should be silent. That's one application we can all take from 1 Cor 12-14.

When in doubt they wander about believing it is the way out.

Many people here on CC do not believe they are under the eternal Commandment: Deut 4:1-2 , Prov 30:5-6 , Rev 22:18-19

 

[ResidentAlien]

100% TRUTH = you cannot buy the Holy Spirit = TRUTH

100% TRUTH = "this is about preparedness"

You are still missing, in the PARABLE, the LORD'S requirement for "preparedness"...........

Matt 25:1-13 is a PARABLE, therefore you need to uncover the meaning of "go to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.’".

Sorry, I don't need to "uncover" the meaning. The meaning is self-evident, except to those who feel everything has to be a gigantic mystery.

 

[Amanuensis]

Anyone can invoke the New Testament to justify anything they desire to do. Scripture can be twisted. Every sect and cult out there has their own interpretation of scripture.

What we have to do is decide, by a preponderance of the evidence, whether a thing is more likely from man or Yahweh. This takes discernment.

That would be so subjective. One person is convinced that they can discern the truth better than another one and they both judge each other as being the dishonest one. Every man is right in his own eyes, and calls it discernment.

The scriptures are our only rule of faith and conduct.

Exegeting texts about the gift of tongues is the only way to learn the truth about the gift of tongues that will pass the test of biblical authority, and yet experiencing the gift of tongues is the only way to really know why God gave it and the benefits.

Therefore the real authority of the scriptures is that which is lived. The same god breathed scriptures are still being breathed upon in the lives of those who are filled with that same Spirit.

We must sit at the feet of Jesus and listen to God speak to us through His Son and not be distracted by all the things that demand our time. This will position us to receive illumination (be careful how you listen) and instead of what you think you know being taken from you, the illumination that you do receive will not be taken from you. Luke 8:19, Luke 10:39.

The condition of the heart is critical to having understanding in the scriptures and obtaining true authorial intent.

Discernment of the things of God are directly associated with the condition of the heart (parable of the sower) Luke 8.

That good and honest heart is a repentant heart, where the ground is tilled up and able to receive without arguing with God.

Martha thought she was so morally correct about Mary needing to help her that she expected Jesus to agree with her. She thought for sure that Jesus being the moral teacher that he was was on her side. But her "ethical ideas" were not as unrefutably as she imagined. Mary had chosen the right part and Martha should have not been distracted by what was good and missed the most excellent.

We can be so sure about our own discernment and ability to see what is God and what isn't God and yet what we think we have will be taken from us, yea, already has been, because we are self confidently thinking something that is not accurate at all.

Why? Heart issues. We go on in obstinate sin and don't realize it has darkened our ability to see clearly. What sin? Usually it has to do with how we treat people, things we say or think about them. Look there to find the blockage to your illumination. That is where you will most likely discover it. Once that is removed, the light will come flooding in. Calling someone on CC a long winded bore can be an indication that your opinion about Pentecostals and Charismatics is not credible. If your theology and hermeneutic produces a willingness to talk to strangers on the internet in such a way, then you have announced to the world that your ability to discern what is of Yahweh and what isn't is not working for you.

To the word and to the testimony, if they speak not according to your word it is because their is no light in them. Careful that the light you do have is not darkness, because when that happens that darkness is great and hard to get rid of because you think it is actually light.

The condition of the heat is everything to understanding the Word of God as God intended it to be understood.

I love you and have no ill will toward you and hope that you grow mature in the Lord in all truth.

 

[Amanuensis]

You make a valid point and are very biblical. I would also include that Paul in1cor chapter 14 specifically said:


2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries. 3 But he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men. 4 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. 5 I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied; for he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets, that the church may receive edification.

6 But now, brethren, if I come to you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you unless I speak to you either by revelation, by knowledge, by prophesying, or by teaching?

22 Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe. 23 Therefore if the whole church comes together in one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those who are uninformed or unbelievers, will they not say that you are [f]out of your mind?

The ACTS CHAPTER 2 ACCOUNT THEY HEARD IN THEIR OWN LANGUES. In the gifts of the Holy Spirit chapters 12 to 14 of 1cor, they are not able to understand unless there is an interpretation. Acts 2 was a sign to the unbeliever. 1cor chapter 12 to 14 is to the body of Christ as chapter 12 states in a church setting.

So now I ask, (and I am not arguing, or trying to set you up for anything) what is the gift of interpretation of tongues in the church setting? Would you see it like this:

Someone would speak in tongues, (a known language they had never learned) and someone who did not know that language, but had the gift of interpretation could give the message in Greek and thereby everyone be edified by the message. Or...

Would it be: Someone spoke in tongues (a known language they had never learned) and someone who had the gift of interpretation could suddenly know that language translate it, then after wards remember the words that were spoken and the words they translated. So that over a period of years they could effectively become bilingual?

I mean in order to comprehend what Paul was talking about we should try and put ourselves in the shoes of the Corinthian believers who received this letter. What was going on there, what did it mean to them when they read it. They were familiar with the manifestation of the gift of interpretation weren't they? Was it something they had yet to see used at all? Or was it something they were aware of but had not been requiring and now they are being told that they should?

I am thinking. "Paul? What does that look like, when someone has the gift of interpretation" How does it work? If I were there what would I have witnessed when it was used?

 

[DavidTree]

Sorry, I don't need to "uncover" the meaning. The meaning is self-evident, except to those who feel everything has to be a gigantic mystery.

"Pride goes before the fall"

 

[ResidentAlien]

"Pride goes before the fall"

Yup, it sure does.

 

[DavidTree]

Yup, it sure does.

Your arrogance is not an attribute of the Holy Spirit, just in case you may not know this.
This is why you have no fear speaking against Scripture, fully believing you have THE 'understanding.'
i offered you the love of Christ in Truth and you treat it like an unclean thing just as yourself and others call the Gifts of the Holy Spirit as "unholy".
By your words you will give a full account before HIM who Baptizes in His Holy Spirit.

 

[CS1]

So now I ask, (and I am not arguing, or trying to set you up for anything) what is the gift of interpretation of tongues in the church setting? Would you see it like this:

Someone would speak in tongues, (a known language they had never learned) and someone who did not know that language, but had the gift of interpretation could give the message in Greek and thereby everyone be edified by the message. Or...

Would it be: Someone spoke in tongues (a known language they had never learned) and someone who had the gift of interpretation could suddenly know that language translate it, then after wards remember the words that were spoken and the words they translated. So that over a period of years they could effectively become bilingual?

I mean in order to comprehend what Paul was talking about we should try and put ourselves in the shoes of the Corinthian believers who received this letter. What was going on there, what did it mean to them when they read it. They were familiar with the manifestation of the gift of interpretation weren't they? Was it something they had yet to see used at all? Or was it something they were aware of but had not been requiring and now they are being told that they should?

I am thinking. "Paul? What does that look like, when someone has the gift of interpretation" How does it work? If I were there what would I have witnessed when it was used?

as I see it in the context of 1cor chapters 12 through 14 which are unit chapters for the full context. Paul is instructing on all the gifts of the Holy Spirit from the vocal gifts, knowledge gifts and power gifts, and edifying gifts all done in the church setting where Christ is the head of no matter where they are at.

I will say that the context of Tongues and interpretation of tongues is not a translation from one language to another.
The gift of Prophesying and tongues and interpretation of tongues are all spoken under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

it is not the same as one speaking in Spanish and a person is able to translate into English what was said. It is speaking from the unction of the Holy Spirit or inspiration which is not a translation but an interpretation.
This is why one who speaks in an unknown tongue IS supposed to pray they interpret which is equal to prophesying which is speaking under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. In the maturity of the gift, one can speak in tongues under their voice and then pray for the interpretation and speak it out in the language they know. That is the same thing as prophesying. Then what is said MUST be judged by the word of God. That is how I see it in 1cor chapters 12 through 14 and has been my experience as the Holy Spirit uses me in all three. Prophesying tongues & interpretation, Word of Knowledge.

 

[TDidymas]

Notice i did not say you must speak in tongues, neither does Matt 25:1-13 but it does say being filled with Oil which is symbolic of the Holy Spirit and the first place we see NT Saints "filled with oil/Holy Spirit" is in Acts.

Ok, but what does that have to do with tongues?

 

[TDidymas]

By adding that he sang in the spirit and sang with his understanding also, he adds another detail that points toward his intended meaning be that of a personal devotion a praying and singing in the spirit between himself and God.

Did you miss the point? He didn't say his mind was unfruitful for 20 years.

 

[TDidymas]

The whole sweep of 1 Corinthians 14 simply indicates that "foreign language tongues", spoken without an interpreter, are not profitable in that they do not edify and build up the Church. Essentially Paul is saying that they are wasting valuable time and effort, which would much better be directed toward prophecy. Because prophecy is exceedingly profitable for both believer and unbeliever alike. Un-interpreted tongues.....not so much.

Paul is also calling to their attention that since everyone was speaking "foreign language tongues" without order, neither with an interpreter, the service was incorrigibly chaotic.

We should be mindful of the fact that vv. 10 and 11 (and preceeding verses) are extraordinarily explicit in stating that what they were dealing with was real, existing foreign languages. I mean that is the literal description Paul used. And the congregation had absolutely no idea of the meaning because they did not have an interpreter, or simply failed to follow up with an interpretation. Therefore making a whole escapade a waste of breath.

This chapter is very simple and very easy to understand. I have no idea why confusion reigns within the CP crowd.

It's because they are trying to make their experience something it's not.

 

[TDidymas]

not true, and will not share with you the evidence of this as it would be a pearls before swine situation.

Typical response from someone with a sacred cow. Ok, then, keep it a secret for you and your four and no more.

 

[TDidymas]

i went over the specific verses with you like two days and not only myself but other members on here as well.

John ch1 , Acts ch1-2 , 1 Cor ch12-ch14

You're not exegeting the text. Your terse response indicates that you demand that I read it with Pentecostal bias like you do. This type of response goes nowhere.

 

[CS1]

the context of chapters 12 through 14 of 1corinthians is very clear.

 

[DavidTree]

Did you miss the point? He didn't say his mind was unfruitful for 20 years.

Neither did Paul seek a human language linguistic expert/interpreter to understand his so-called "babbling nonsense".
Neither can, to this day, one be found since "he who speaks in tongues does not speak to men(all the nations/languages in the world)
for he speaks to GOD and no one understand him." = 1 Cor 14:1

Search the world over with every linguistic expert yo can find = no one will understand that which belongs to God.

Peace

 

[TDidymas]

I understand your reasoning about all this. And we both agree that it hinges on the idea that it must be a known language or someone claiming that it is.

But what about this gift of interpretation. Paul lists it as one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Paul expected someone to be able to interpret these utterances in tongues with this gift and not someone who is just naturally bilingual. Skipping over this, ignoring it, replacing it with the idea of anyone who is just bilingual and present at the time (not even requiring the Holy Spirit or a gift) would be obviously dishonest as to applying it to what Paul said. What I mean is that there is a whole other level of miraculous going on here when the one with the gift of interpretation can "translate" having never learned that language. We don't seem to hear anyone talking about that. It makes me suspect as to honest dealings with the text when that is ignored or replaced with a natural translator instead of someone with a supernatural gift.

If one concedes that the gift of interpretation is one of the Holy Spirit gifts and then explains what that would look like if they were there in the first century charismatic church we could get past the disingenuous hurdle of applying it to a natural translator that doesn't need a gift. That is still the elephant in the room in this discussion.

It's a ghost elephant, because I don't see a problem with it. Obviously, when Paul talked about a language being unknown, he has received a report that someone in the service (probably more than once) spoke in tongues, and no one in the congregation understood it. Very possibly, he experienced it himself during his missionary journeys. So the obvious solution is that God gives an interpretation (translation) miraculously to someone in the congregation, so that the message could be understood.

But the problem I have with P/C practice is not the procedure, but the gift itself. Because it's not a real gift. It's a human ability, that is, it's of the flesh (human psyche, not sinful nature). They get the procedure right, because it's clearly stated in the text. But I don't believe in the so-called gift, and I don't believe in the so-called interpretation. IMO all that is play-acting (albeit sincerely believed).

And I don't believe that the apostles spoke gibberish, and the crowd heard their own intelligible languages. That's B.S. IMO. God doesn't make someone hear something different than what was said. The devil does that. An interpretation or translation is not saying something different than what is said, because what is said is an actual message conveyed, not gibberish. Therefore, in the scripture, an interpretation is an actual translation of the message spoken in tongues. But in contrast, modern tongues is gibberish, and the so-called interpretation is something out of someone's imagination.

And just because you happened to get the same idea as someone else, doesn't prove anything. That happens often in normal conversation.

 

[TDidymas]

Neither did Paul seek a human language linguistic expert/interpreter to understand his so-called "babbling nonsense".
Neither can, to this day, one be found since "he who speaks in tongues does not speak to men(all the nations/languages in the world)
for he speaks to GOD and no one understand him." = 1 Cor 14:1

Search the world over with every linguistic expert yo can find = no one will understand that which belongs to God.

Peace

Sounds like you're dead right.

 

[CS1]

It's a ghost elephant, because I don't see a problem with it. Obviously, when Paul talked about a language being unknown, he has received a report that someone in the service (probably more than once) spoke in tongues, and no one in the congregation understood it. Very possibly, he experienced it himself during his missionary journeys. So the obvious solution is that God gives an interpretation (translation) miraculously to someone in the congregation, so that the message could be understood.

But the problem I have with P/C practice is not the procedure, but the gift itself. Because it's not a real gift. It's a human ability, that is, it's of the flesh (human psyche, not sinful nature). They get the procedure right, because it's clearly stated in the text. But I don't believe in the so-called gift, and I don't believe in the so-called interpretation. IMO all that is play-acting (albeit sincerely believed).

And I don't believe that the apostles spoke gibberish, and the crowd heard their own intelligible languages. That's B.S. IMO. God doesn't make someone hear something different than what was said. The devil does that. An interpretation or translation is not saying something different than what is said, because what is said is an actual message conveyed, not gibberish. Therefore, in the scripture, an interpretation is an actual translation of the message spoken in tongues. But in contrast, modern tongues is gibberish, and the so-called interpretation is something out of someone's imagination.

And just because you happened to get the same idea as someone else, doesn't prove anything. That happens often in normal conversation.

just opinionated words. You have not used one Bible verse to support your understanding.

 

[TDidymas]

Drop it, leave it, stop it. You've been asked several times,there is no more reason to respond.

Then why do you keep responding? Are you demanding the "last word"?