Pentecostalism's sketchy origins

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
23,004
8,373
113
Since today's Israel is unbelievers in the Messiah, NO they are not a fulfullment of prophecy. Where does the Bible say they will be in the land in unbeif? (what happend to the spell check?)
Use the search tool:

Thread title: Are we in the end times?
Post # 603.

I'm not going to say the "2520 years to restoration" thesis is boilerplate doctrine.....but it's awfully close. In my opinion it's probably correct. I think Israel is back in the land precisely on time to the very day. God did not mark out an exact day for the start & end of the 70 captivity for no uncertain reason.

At any rate there is no doubt in my mind whatsoever that the nation Israel today is an absolutely necessary prerequisite for the fulfillment of "end time" eschatology. At the bare minimum it is a "pre-gathering".......the stage is being set.

I agree that the Biblical regathering of Israel as the fulfillment of MOST/OBVIOUS/COMMONLY KNOWN prophecy occurs AFTER the Second Coming.
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
8,312
3,618
113
"Then the Pharisees and scribes asked Him, 'Why do Your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders'. . ."
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
8,312
3,618
113
"But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart, from a good conscience, and from a sincere faith. Some people have strayed from these things and have turned aside to fruitless discussion, wanting to be teachers of the Law, even though they do not understand either what they are saying or the matters about which they make confident assertions."—1 Timothy 1:5-7
 
Aug 2, 2021
7,317
2,048
113
"But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart, from a good conscience, and from a sincere faith. Some people have strayed from these things and have turned aside to fruitless discussion, wanting to be teachers of the Law, even though they do not understand either what they are saying or the matters about which they make confident assertions."—1 Timothy 1:5-7
Stay away from those who wish to persuade you to be under the Law and run to those who have the Baptism of the Holy Spirit,
just as the LORD made open for us His Way............."the Promise of the Father which you have heard of from the LORD."
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
8,312
3,618
113
Stay away from those who wish to persuade you to be under the Law and run to those who have the Baptism of the Holy Spirit,
just as the LORD made open for us His Way............."the Promise of the Father which you have heard of from the LORD."
Yes, and stay away from those who think they're teachers of God's word but don't have a clue what they're talking about.
 

hornetguy

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2016
7,114
1,743
113
It is very wearisome to try to carry on a conversation with someone that seems to NEED to make sweeping pronouncements with every reply.... "you are totally wrong" "your heart is not in a good place" "you are insulting Jesus" "you are Satan's spawn" "you are grieving the Spirit"....... I mean, good grief, if you cannot have a discussion without feeling the need to proclaim how wrong the other person is, in order to make yourself appear to be always right/just/Spirit-led/whatever... it just gets old.

"I disagree with you..." "WELL, THAT JUST SHOWS YOU'RE POSSESSED BY A SPIRIT OF DISINGENUOSITILITY, AND NEED TO BEG EVERYONE'S FORGIVENESS!!!" :rolleyes:

How bout we just discuss things... disagreement is ok...
 
Aug 2, 2021
7,317
2,048
113
Yes, and stay away from those who think they're teachers of God's word but don't have a clue what they're talking about.
AGREE - In agreement with the words of Christ (which you also agree) beware of false christs, prophets and teachers = AGREE

Unlike yourself however, for we all have read your error concerning the Baptism in the Holy Spirit.

You are spot on concerning the 'propheteers' (Copeland) but amiss concerning Acts & 1 Corinthians and 1 John and Genesis
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
13,058
4,344
113
AGREE - In agreement with the words of Christ (which you also agree) beware of false christs, prophets and teachers = AGREE

Unlike yourself however, for we all have read your error concerning the Baptism in the Holy Spirit.

You are spot on concerning the 'propheteers' (Copeland) but amiss concerning Acts & 1 Corinthians and 1 John and Genesis
I have learned a long time ago that we are to pray for those in the faith.

There was a time when some on TV were fully in line with the word of God and not using the gifts of the Holy Spirit to make money.
If we confront them and pray for them and leave them to the Lord and reach & teach these we reach the word of God correctly and seek the help of the Holy Spirit as we study the word of God. WE will spend less time trying to expose what is false because the authentic is a powerful witness.
 

Amanuensis

Well-known member
Jun 12, 2021
1,457
460
83
My objection to the P/C movement, to the brass tacks:

What I find wrong with the Pentecostal/Charismatic (P/C) movement (that is, the modern 'tongues' movement) is evidenced by two things: (1) the obvious difference between modern tongues and Biblical tongues, and (2) the misinterpretation of scripture for the purpose of justifying their practice.

(1) Biblical tongues is described in Acts 2, and there is absolutely nothing in scripture to indicate that the nature of tongues changed from that day to what Paul describes in 1 Cor. 14. Paul's description fits well in the Acts 2 narrative, but modern tongues doesn't. The Acts 2 narrative makes it very obvious that what happened then was a miraculous act of God. But in contrast, modern tongues is not proving to be miraculous. Instead, it is shrouded in mystery by those people who have a vested interest in keeping it mysterious, as if that was some proof it was miraculous. To any well-thinking person, this is an obvious difference in behavior between the Acts 2 narrative and the modern narrative.

(2) Just because people cannot explain modern tongues, it is assumed to be the same thing as Acts 2, but it's not. Even many P/Cs acknowledge a difference by trying to work around the problem by reinterpreting scripture the way they want it to read. Some claim that the nature of tongues changed after Acts 2, while others claim that Acts 2 was a hearing miracle rather than a speaking miracle. But the fact that the text clearly shows it was a speaking miracle proves that people do acknowledge the difference, but are unwilling to conform themselves to the Biblical narrative.

Concerning the idea that the Acts 2 narrative was a hearing miracle and not a speaking miracle is ludicrous to anyone who has a clear enough mind to read the original intent of what is actually written. Yet, the M.O. of many in the P/C movement is to disregard the original intent and natural flow of the text, and instead to impose their own subjective idea onto the text to make it read how they want it to read.

Therefore, the reason why the movement continues is because of religious sentiment. Such sentiment may be based on fear, superstition, deception, or even more sinister motives (such as a desire to gain a following, for example). There is nothing wrong with religious sentiment in and of itself, just like there is nothing wrong with eating in and of itself. But when eating becomes gluttony, then it is sinful. When sex becomes an addiction, then it is sinful, the same as drinking alcohol, or any other sin listed in scripture, including gossip, slander, and "things like these." If religious sentiment becomes the thing by which I judge everything and everyone, including how the Bible is to be read, then it is sinful.

So if I use the scripture to judge myself in order to conform my thoughts and behavior to what it says, isn't this the right way to use scripture? And doesn't it require that I read it the same way it was written, by understanding the original intent of it?

But if I use the scripture to justify my religious sentiment, then am I not judging scripture based on my religious sentiment? Yet, this is the M.O. of modern tongue-talkers. Based on their belief (religious feeling) that their tongues has to be the same thing as the Biblical narrative, they impose their idea onto scripture by reading their experience into the scripture, in order to justify their practice.

But just because someone practices something they deem religious, and it makes them feel better, doesn't justify what they are doing. Every religion in the world does the same thing. Every cult does the same thing. And this is what makes the P/C movement cult-like in behavior. They prey on peoples' ignorance (or their own) to gain followers (or whatever other motive may be in play). This is why the P/C movement is so far reaching and rapidly growing among the poor and uneducated.

Such is evidenced by the fact that most tongues activists get very upset when someone speaks ill (in their assessment) of their religious sentiment. It is somewhat like a young child with a vanity ballon. When some sharp object pokes the balloon, it bursts - goes BANG - and then the child crys "wah, wah." But in the case of religous sentiment, it becomes more sinister than merely "my feeling is hurt." There are outbursts of anger, cries of "blasphemy," "you're spiritually dead," and other such things. Those kinds of behavior prove that the religious sentiment has become idolatry, known as a "sacred cow."

It ends up very much like the modern social media culture. When someone's feelings (religious sentiment) is hurt, they complain to the moderator, and if the moderator conforms to the social media culture, they ban the person speaking ill (in their assessment) of another's religious sentiment.

Furthermore, if my religious sentiment is the basis on which I interpret scripture, then isn't my faith more in my religious sentiment than in the text of scripture? Of course it is! Yet, this is the M.O. of people in the modern 'tongues' movement.

This is what is wrong with the picture. This is why I say that someone who stands up and speaks their modern tongues (pseudo-language) in an assembly is, by their action, saying, "listen to what God has to say." And in doing so, they are taking the name of the Lord in vain, because they aren't speaking what God says, because their 'tongues' is not the obviously miraculous tongues of the NT. It's a human phenomenon that people stumbled upon in almost every religion of the world.

Furthermore, anyone who stands in an assembly and speaks an 'interpretation' of that 'tongue' is speaking not what God says, but speaks out of their imagination. Just because they quote scripture or say the same thing as scripture doesn't mean God is speaking. What they said may be true, but their action is a claim "thus saith the Lord" in this whole modern P/C narrative, when the Lord is not speaking in that narrative. In such a way they also take the name of the Lord in vain.

There are many other things wrong with the P/C movement, such as speaking the same kind of hype that people want to hear, just like the false prophets of the OT did. Prophets in the P/C movement are a dime a dozen. They say things people like to hear, but there is no accountability when their 'prophecies' don't come true. But still, the debate rages on.

It seems to me that people who are seeking God by seeking the truth, if coming to understand the things I am talking about here, will say to themselves "could it be that I have been deceived by the tongue-talking phenomenon? Has my faith been misplaced in a phenomenon rather than in the real Christ who sits on His Father's throne in heaven? Rather than in the true meaning of scripture, which is its original intent?"
We think you do all the same things that you think we are doing. We think you are changing the interpretation and authorial intent to fit your own structured reasoning to justify a lack of desire for spiritual gifts.
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
13,058
4,344
113
We think you do all the same things that you think we are doing. We think you are changing the interpretation and authorial intent to fit your own structured reasoning to justify a lack of desire for spiritual gifts.
love the phrase "Authorial intent " as part of the art and science of Proper Biblical interpretation known as Hermeneutics
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
23,004
8,373
113
We think you do all the same things that you think we are doing. We think you are changing the interpretation and authorial intent to fit your own structured reasoning to justify a lack of desire for spiritual gifts.
But wait.......there is at least one error that we aren't guilty of......uttering bogus unintelligible gibberish tongues. The same thing cannot be said of the CPs.

OK.....let's narrow that down to the "fake" CPs.....lol.

You see the thing is, as far as I can tell, it is impossible to discern the difference between the CP genuine tongues and the CP bogus tongues. Even the "genuine CP's" can't tell the difference.

Now if these utterances were a real foreign language, that the speaker himself does not already know.......well then the difference between "genuine tongues" and "fake tongues" could be very readily discerned by just about anybody. ;)
 

Amanuensis

Well-known member
Jun 12, 2021
1,457
460
83
The problem with your narrative is that it's based on P/C bias, not on the original intent of scripture. Just because the procedure looks right to scripture, doesn't mean the act is from God.

Please read my "brass tacks" objection to the movement here:
https://christianchat.com/threads/pentecostalisms-sketchy-origins.199418/post-4832221
And yet the same thing can be said about your narrative except in yours you spend far too much time judging the motives of your opponents rather than working on an exegesis of 1 Cor 14 that would be warmly embraced by all seekers of truth.

In my opinion your interpretation of 1 Cor 14:14 is not a natural reading of the text. Mine is. You accuse me of bias interpretation and then go about presenting one of the most classic examples of a biased interpretation, A twist that makes Paul to NOT being saying what he said.

You can't recognize your own violation of Syntactic and Lexical analysis of this text and are willing to dismiss commentators of your own persuasion. You should be seriously doubting your interpretation of 1 Cor 14:14 but instead are willing to accuse the motives of those who don't agree as being biased. And yet a much stronger case could be made that your view on this reeks of biased, forced, and strained interpretation.

We all have bias and presuppositions. It is impossible not to. We conclude that certain things are theologically true and we bring that to the table when we evaluate a text. All sides of the controversy are doing so. The question is whether those presuppositions are accurate and should be applied or not.

I don't think accusing others motives of their interpretation is even one of the rules of hermeneutics.

I also have my personal life experiences and my opinions that there is a huge difference between the people in each camp (Charismatics vs Ceasationists) and I have my many reasons why I prefer to fellowship with Charismatics, while you have your reasons that are the opposite of mine. We can prove nothing by this but our own bias.

I could say that my positive experiences with the Charismatics supports the validity of our interpretation of these scriptures but that is not really one of the rules of hermeneutics so even though we feel compelled to express these reasons because they mean so much to us from a relationship with God perspective, they don't really convince the person that needs to know they are properly interpreting scripture. Our experiences are our own and they don't convince others as much as we think they do.
 

Amanuensis

Well-known member
Jun 12, 2021
1,457
460
83
But wait.......there is at least one error that we aren't guilty of......uttering bogus unintelligible gibberish tongues. The same thing cannot be said of the CPs.

OK.....let's narrow that down to the "fake" CPs.....lol.

You see the thing is, as far as I can tell, it is impossible to discern the difference between the CP genuine tongues and the CP bogus tongues. Even the "genuine CP's" can't tell the difference.

Now if these utterances were a real foreign language, that the speaker himself does not already know.......well then the difference between "genuine tongues" and "fake tongues" could be very readily discerned by just about anybody. ;)
1) We can tell the difference. I always have. When you have the gift you know the difference. Because we are not making this stuff up and have actually been filled with an anointing we can tell when it is there and when it is not.

2) Your theory about needing to have someone identify the foreign language in order for it to be true today does not match what Paul said in 1 Cor 14:2, 14 and throughout the chapter where there was never any hint of any one recognizing the foreign language of someone speaking in tongues.

So if what happened in the first century was tranported to today you would not hear anyone identify a foreign language instead you would hear someone with the gift of interpretation give the message. Not a translation.

No one would have known what language was spoken. That is a more natural reading of 1 Cor 14 and you insisting that it had to be a language someone was able to identify is a forced imagination and interpretation not found anywhere in the text of 1 Cor and therefore you are biased and forcing a theory that does not even make sense to anyone but yourself.
But you hammer it like it is an excellent point. While people are just looking at you thinking "read a commentary, and then get back with us on that." ;)
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
8,191
1,577
113
68
Brighton, MI
Pentecostal Evangelist Daniel Kolenda explains his "Decade of Double Harvest (2020-2030) where CFAN hopes to win 150 MN Souls for the Lord Jesus Christ. I fully support CFAN's vision - at a time when many other Good Christians fall into the "Doom and Gloom" Trap - and believe Kolenda is one of the Best Evangelists for the Lord on the Planet today. Kolenda and Reinhard Bonnke were Great Pentecostal Evangelists, and Billy and Franklin Graham are Great Non-Pentecostal Evangelists. I believe God is more interested in Evangelism than anything else. As Christians go out and try to win souls for Him in our everyday lives, He will show which Theology is the Right One.

No speakers
 
Aug 2, 2021
7,317
2,048
113
But wait.......there is at least one error that we aren't guilty of......uttering bogus unintelligible gibberish tongues. The same thing cannot be said of the CPs.

OK.....let's narrow that down to the "fake" CPs.....lol.

You see the thing is, as far as I can tell, it is impossible to discern the difference between the CP genuine tongues and the CP bogus tongues. Even the "genuine CP's" can't tell the difference.

Now if these utterances were a real foreign language, that the speaker himself does not already know.......well then the difference between "genuine tongues" and "fake tongues" could be very readily discerned by just about anybody. ;)
When has the Scripture ever submitted to the carnal mind?

"These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

Well that leaves you on the outside looking in..........you'll find the Door Opens when Faith is found knocking.
 

TDidymas

Active member
Oct 27, 2021
311
70
28
TD you're full of hot air and heifers dust. You love the sound of your own voice. At this point do everyone a favor and :censored::censored:




You're a Pharisee, looking down your judgmental nose on everyone else. Really just :censored::censored::censored:




You want me to listen to MORE of your hot air? :censored::censored::censored: Instead of apologizing you take more opportunity to talk more about you. I asked where is your Christlike spirit, you didn't take second, a breath, you deflected and you just blamed me. Couldn't humble yourself for a second. Hold on to your beliefs, I could care less. Now I'm gonna have your spirit and not apologize, now we're even.
Every word of your response proves my words true.