Water baptism is necessary to be in the first resurrection

[Runningman]

This is false on its face. The context is about a second physical birth, per Nic. So Jesus used Nic's context to make the point that it takes more than just physical birth to enter the kingdom. In fact, it takes a DIFFERENT KIND OF BIRTH to enter the kingdom.


This isn't even remotely related to John 3. Jesus wasn't talking about resurrection, but about a spiriual birth to enter the kingdom.

And consider the very next verse in John 3-
6 - Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.

So, after telling Nic one must be BORN OF WATER and BORN OF THE SPIRIT, He further clarifies in v.6 by DIFFERENTIATING between physical and spiritual births.

This is very clear. But you have to pay attention to the whole context.


No, you are grossly misunderstanding the Bible.

You cannot argue against the context about Nic thinking of TWO physical births. So Jesus acknowledged TWO births alright, but one was physical and one is spiritual.

Furthermore, youe insistence on water baptism for resurrection is based on an obscure verse that no commentator understands and there is NO historical record to explain the practice.

And, it is about PROXY baptism anyway, and you have already agreed that there is NO BENEFIT to proxy baptisms.

You reject the Bible and just want to argue about everything. As you can see, most people just don't bother responding to you anymore. We want honest and intellectual discussions. Have a good day FreeGrace.

 

[BillG]

Jesus had His disciples do water baptisms for Him. You think that Jesus didn't instruct them and had no responsibility for what His disciples were doing? That isn't how this works

Just posted a verse. That’s all.
the verse that states Jesus did not baptise.

 

[posthuman]

1 Corinthians 15:29 KJV
29Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

After having discussed the order of the resurrection in the preceding verses, Paul immediately asked a question without directly giving the answer because it's a rhetorical question that the reader of the Bible is supposed to know the answer to. Often this verse is misinterpreted by LDS folk to mean that it's possible to perform a substitutionary water baptism for someone who has died, under the belief that water baptism is a prerequisite for eternal salvation; this part is false.

However, Paul asks these question in regards to the order of the resurrection of the righteous, not eternal salvation. Now I will give you the correct answers to Paul's rhetorical questions in plain English showing a few different Bible versions with it.

Question 1:
Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? KJV
Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? NIV
Otherwise, what do people mean by being baptized on behalf of the dead? ESV

Answer 1:
We can reverse engineer Paul's line of thinking here by questioning why they are getting immersed if there is no resurrection of the dead. There is a resurrection of the dead and in order to take part in the resurrection you must be water baptized. That's basically what Paul is suggesting here and I will provide numerous scriptures that support it later in this post.

Question 2:
why are they then baptized for the dead? KJV
If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them? NIV
If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized on their behalf? ESV

Answer 2:
This question is similar to the first question and so is the answer. The answer is that people are attempting to help deceased people by performing a water baptism for them so that they can be resurrected. There is no evidence from scripture that a substitutionary posthumous water baptism is effective to qualify a dead person for a resurrection, but there is evidence that a water baptism can provide a living person a resurrection.

After we understand these vital clues about Paul's water baptism theology, we can more accurately understand what the purpose of water baptism is he preached everywhere he went. It isn't about eternal salvation of the soul as some people think; Paul meant that water baptism is literally about becoming eligible to have an immortal resurrected body.

Paul is teaching that water baptism is literally necessary to have a resurrected body:
Romans 6:4-5 KJV
4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5For if we have been united with Him like this in His death, we will certainly also be united with Him in His resurrection.

Again:
Colossians 2:12
12Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Again:
Galatians 3:27 KJV
27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Once you understand that water baptism is about the righteous getting a resurrected body in the first resurrection, you'll understand why Paul often made water baptism less important than preaching the gospel. It is more important to save as many souls as possible with the Gospel of Christ than it is to get people into the first resurrection:

1 Corinthians 1:14-17 KJV
14I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; 15Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name. 16And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other. 17For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

it is with deep sadness that i am being taught the believing thief on the cross next to Christ's is forever doomed to be only be a disembodied, unresurrected spirit in paradise with our Lord, despite having put his trust in Him.

 

[Runningman]

it is with deep sadness that i am being taught the believing thief on the cross next to Christ's is forever doomed to be only be a disembodied, unresurrected spirit in paradise with our Lord, despite having put his trust in Him.

I never said that in my OP. Why do you insist he was never water baptized if the Bible neither confirms or denies it?

 

[Runningman]

Just posted a verse. That’s all.
the verse that states Jesus did not baptise.

John 4:1-3

A Samaritan Woman Meets Her Messiah
1 Therefore, when the Lord knew that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John 2 (though Jesus Himself did not baptize, but His disciples), 3 He left Judea and departed again to Galilee.

 

[posthuman]

I never said that in my OP. Why do you insist he was never water baptized if the Bible neither confirms or denies it?

oh! do you reckon the centurions let him pop off to the river for a quick dip?
i hadn't thought of that
thanks

 

[Runningman]

oh! do you reckon the centurions let him pop off to the river for a quick dip?
i hadn't thought of that
thanks

It's a great thought, don't get me wrong. Here's a better question... how long did it take for Jesus to be arrested, tried, convicted, and crucified? Hours, days, weeks?

 

[BillG]

John 4:1-3

A Samaritan Woman Meets Her Messiah
1 Therefore, when the Lord knew that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John 2 (though Jesus Himself did not baptize, but His disciples), 3 He left Judea and departed again to Galilee.

What’s your issue and problem?
you have quoted the same verses I did and went at me when I posted exactly the same verse.
thanks for quoting my verse as well

 

[BeeThePeace]

You're splitting hairs by insisting that because Jesus did not physically baptize anyone that He wasn't the one responsible for it.



John 7:39 says the living water is the Holy Spirit. I have already told you this once. Therefore, the water in being born of "water and Spirit" is not also the Holy Spirit or you would have Jesus saying "you must be born of Spirit and Spirit" which is nonsense and not how God talks nor is that a Bible doctrine repeatedly elsewhere. Big red flag you're way off base. Please hear what I am telling you.



Your hermeneutic is not Biblically consistent. Consider Matthew 25, the parable of the talents:

Matthew 25:26
26His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:

As you can see here, the master had servants who worked for him doing his business. He reap where he did not sow and gathered where he did not scatter seed because he's the property owner and takes for credit for the performance of the business. Jesus being master of the water baptisms is the same.

Also consider, in the modern day, all business owners and leader take full credit and responsibility for the performance of their operation. That's why John 4:1 says that Jesus did the baptizing even though He didn't physically do them. Jesus reaps the glory. In the same way, we use our free will to obey our Heavenly Father and bring Him glory. I you still disagree that's a problem.




Being born of water and Spirit is how Jesus defines being born again. The first birth is a flesh birth and not a rebirth so it's impossible to be "born again" via a live birth in amniotic fluid. Like Nicodemus who thought it was possible to reenter his mother and be born a second time, you too are wrong. The water component of being born of water and Spirit is water baptism because Jesus doesn't need to tell people who are alive they were born,.

Furthermore, John 1:11-13 directly refutes your claims. Almost everything you say stands in contradiction to the Bible.

Being born of flesh and blood has no relevancy to being born again.
John 1:11-13
11He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.



Jesus said you must be born of water and Spirit. Repeatedly water baptism is used as an image of resurrection: Romans 6:4,5, 1 Cor. 15, 1 Peter 3:21, and there's probably more.



I don't know why you're telling me this since I never said you need to be water baptized to go to "heaven." If by heaven you mean the dwelling place of God. The Kingdom of God (millennial kingdom) and Heaven are two entirely different places.

Nor am I a Mormon aka a Latter Day Saint and reject nearly everything they say. I'm not sure you and I are even speaking about the same thing here. Water baptism is for resurrection, not salvation of the soul.

[/QUOTE]
I'll address your first statement only. Because it is from that misrepresentation the balance of your remarks proceed.

Jesus did not baptize anyone in water. Jesus was clear how someone becomes born again.

This again is why studying the ori gin of the bible is vital for Christians. I don't know if LDS would be inclined.

Putting conditions on what God has decreed of and from himself is not just blasphemy but is heresy also.

Missions to regions whete water is scarse would be folly. Yet would biolate Jesus' command to spread the gospel had he said emersion was mandatory else one is not born again.

GOD leads us to himself. No one comes there except through the narrow gate that is Christ. "No one comes to the father but through me." Jesus gives us the living water that we shall never thirst. We are thus baptized by taking into ourselves not only the bread of life that is belief in Jesus sacrifice for us, but are also cleansed by he who is living water.

Imagine tap water in a baptismal tank saves. Or emmersion in the ocean, lake, saves.Unclean eaters of the world defiled by sinners pollution of it, in the case of tap water, treated water, washes us clean of our sins.

Jews practiced the ritual cleansing bath long before Jesus and John the baptist.
And as noted, Jesus disciples, while in his company performed the Mikvah as well.

This did not save. John 4.

Because Jesus was teaching the gospel all along and was informing people how to be saved. By hd who would but had not yet given his life, flesh,bread of life, and blood, to seal the new covenant. Wherein his sacrifice at crucifixion, the final lamb killed for the sins of the world that he would take upon himself, to guarantee for all time, irrevocably, that promise he made during his ministry.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believeth in him, and is emersed in water.....
No! Isn't there.

I'm splitting hairs? No. You and others who push your conditional doctrine are shaving the body of Christ! And are tattooing heresy and blasphemy over his wounds.

Show the scripture where we read of Jesus baptizing his Disciples.

There is none.

If Jesus called these men and also women, though those numbers do not reflect the 12 tribes as did his male disciples, to spread the gospel after he was gone also, he'd certainly have saved them through emersion baptism yo insure their eternal reward.

But he didn't. Just as he didn't baptize the thief beside him during Jesus' crucifixion. Yet assured that thief would today be with Jesus in paradise.
Because the thief, though being killed under Roman law for his crimes, did believe Jesus was who he said he was.

We are saved by God! His grace through faith. Not of ourselves, so that none may boast...or presume to put conditions upon eternal life through rites performed by mortal men.

Believe baptism saves, otherwise you're dead in your sins.

I believe Jesus saves. Even in the desert.

 

[Runningman]

What’s your issue and problem?
you have quoted the same verses I did and went at me when I posted exactly the same verse.
thanks for quoting my verse as well

What does verse 1 mean?

 

[BillG]

What does verse 1 mean?

What does in verse 2 mean?
(though Jesus Himself did not baptize, but His disciples), 3 He left Judea and departed aga

 

[Runningman]

I'll address your first statement only. Because it is from that misrepresentation the balance of your remarks proceed.

Jesus did not baptize anyone in water. Jesus was clear how someone becomes born again.

This again is why studying the ori gin of the bible is vital for Christians. I don't know if LDS would be inclined.

Putting conditions on what God has decreed of and from himself is not just blasphemy but is heresy also.

Missions to regions whete water is scarse would be folly. Yet would biolate Jesus' command to spread the gospel had he said emersion was mandatory else one is not born again.

GOD leads us to himself. No one comes there except through the narrow gate that is Christ. "No one comes to the father but through me." Jesus gives us the living water that we shall never thirst. We are thus baptized by taking into ourselves not only the bread of life that is belief in Jesus sacrifice for us, but are also cleansed by he who is living water.

Imagine tap water in a baptismal tank saves. Or emmersion in the ocean, lake, saves.Unclean eaters of the world defiled by sinners pollution of it, in the case of tap water, treated water, washes us clean of our sins.

Jews practiced the ritual cleansing bath long before Jesus and John the baptist.
And as noted, Jesus disciples, while in his company performed the Mikvah as well.

This did not save. John 4.

Because Jesus was teaching the gospel all along and was informing people how to be saved. By hd who would but had not yet given his life, flesh,bread of life, and blood, to seal the new covenant. Wherein his sacrifice at crucifixion, the final lamb killed for the sins of the world that he would take upon himself, to guarantee for all time, irrevocably, that promise he made during his ministry.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believeth in him, and is emersed in water.....
No! Isn't there.

I'm splitting hairs? No. You and others who push your conditional doctrine are shaving the body of Christ! And are tattooing heresy and blasphemy over his wounds.

Show the scripture where we read of Jesus baptizing his Disciples.

There is none.

If Jesus called these men and also women, though those numbers do not reflect the 12 tribes as did his male disciples, to spread the gospel after he was gone also, he'd certainly have saved them through emersion baptism yo insure their eternal reward.

But he didn't. Just as he didn't baptize the thief beside him during Jesus' crucifixion. Yet assured that thief would today be with Jesus in paradise.
Because the thief, though being killed under Roman law for his crimes, did believe Jesus was who he said he was.

We are saved by God! His grace through faith. Not of ourselves, so that none may boast...or presume to put conditions upon eternal life through rites performed by mortal men.

Believe baptism saves, otherwise you're dead in your sins.

I believe Jesus saves. Even in the desert.

Look at a Biblical map. These are so fun. Where do you see anyone ever lived so far away from a body of water or well that they could never be baptized? It doesn't happen because without water no one would be alive to be water baptized. It's a moot point.

Now let's look at some examples where Jesus baptized:

Jesus came to John the Baptist for a water baptism, yet John the Baptist insisted that the kind of baptism he needs is to be water baptized by Jesus.
Matthew 3:14
14But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?

Jesus water baptizing.
John 3:22
22After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.

Jesus water baptizing.
John 3:26
26And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him.

Jesus water baptizing.
John 4:1
1When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John

The Bible is clear that Jesus did water baptisms. Whether or not He actually lowered and raised them into water during the various times He did this is irrelevant. Jesus commands water baptism and while on Earth the water baptisms done in His name were His baptism events.

 

[Runningman]

What does in verse 2 mean?
(though Jesus Himself did not baptize, but His disciples), 3 He left Judea and departed aga

What do these verses mean?

Matthew 3:14
14But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?

John 3:22
22After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.

John 3:26
26And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him.

John 4:1
1When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John

 

[FreeGrace2]

You reject the Bible

Don't make ridiculous comments. I quote more verses than you do. How is that rejecting the Bible?

In fact, I reject your claims as unbiblical, which I've explained over and over.

and just want to argue about everything.

This is ridiculous as well. I argue with those who make unbiblical claims.

As you can see, most people just don't bother responding to you anymore.

They have no steam. They can't defend themselves. They can't refute my points.

We want honest and intellectual discussions. Have a good day FreeGrace.

That's what I have been given. Maybe you just haven't noticed how many thumbs up, agree, and winner "stickers" I've gotten over a wide variety of threads.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Runningman said:
John 4:1-3

A Samaritan Woman Meets Her Messiah
1 Therefore, when the Lord knew that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John 2 (though Jesus Himself did not baptize, but His disciples), 3 He left Judea and departed again to Galilee.

What’s your issue and problem?
you have quoted the same verses I did and went at me when I posted exactly the same verse.
thanks for quoting my verse as well

It is hard to know what his issue and problem is. But he certainly seems to have some.

Here is a sample I get from him:
"You reject the Bible and just want to argue about everything. As you can see, most people just don't bother responding to you anymore. We want honest and intellectual discussions. Have a good day FreeGrace."

 

[Runningman]

Don't make ridiculous comments. I quote more verses than you do. How is that rejecting the Bible?

In fact, I reject your claims as unbiblical, which I've explained over and over.


This is ridiculous as well. I argue with those who make unbiblical claims.


They have no steam. They can't defend themselves. They can't refute my points.


That's what I have been given. Maybe you just haven't noticed how many thumbs up, agree, and winner "stickers" I've gotten over a wide variety of threads.

Runningman said:
Water baptism is required for entrance into the Kingdom of God (John 3:5)

@FreeGrace2 said:
“This is false on its face. The context is about a second physical birth, per Nic. So Jesus used Nic's context to make the point that it takes more than just physical birth to enter the kingdom. In fact, it takes a DIFFERENT KIND OF BIRTH to enter the kingdom.”

John 3:5
5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

You called John 3:5 false on it’s face. If you can’t accept that being born of water and Spirit is a prerequisite for entering the kingdom of God and is not “false on it’s face” then we can’t have a discussion. That’s how you reject the Bible.

 

[BeeThePeace]

You reject the Bible and just want to argue about everything. As you can see, most people just don't bother responding to you anymore. We want honest and intellectual discussions. Have a good day FreeGrace.

Transference.

Your arguments are much like those of another member here.

Maybe consider members don't need to respond to Free Grace because we don't need to add to what they've already provided as scriptural proof your doctrine is deeply unbiblical and flawed.

While your pride resorts to playing the victim because in the display of your hubris you demonstrate a gross lack of the humility and maturity necessary for an adult Christian to admit when they're wrong.

And you are.
Luke 26:36-43 is the perfect refutation against any argument that insists baptism is compulsory, mandatory, else we are not saved.

Unless we're baptized we are not saved.

How dare you refute the irrevocable eternal gospel of grace and faith that is a gift of God!
Not a condition secured by liquid water. As you insist.

How dare you?

 

[peldom10]

it is with deep sadness that i am being taught the believing thief on the cross next to Christ's is forever doomed to be only be a disembodied, unresurrected spirit in paradise with our Lord, despite having put his trust in Him.

Why?
He could have been a backslider and regained His footing when exposed with Christ.
Also Christ may have given him special dispensation.
One can not reach an accurate conclusion from info. available....except that Christ saved him.

 

[peldom10]

Transference....

Unless we're baptized we are not saved.

How dare you refute the irrevocable eternal gospel of grace and faith that is a gift of God!
Not a condition secured by liquid water. As you insist.

How dare you?

Not saved...born again. .....Per scripture.

It is scripture.
You are the one in violation of God's word...no change by man.

Read it here;

Baptism is Required



Peter 3: 21.... whereunto even baptism doth also now save us...

John 3:5 .......Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


Acts 2;38-....Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 22;16... And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.


Galations 3:26...... For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

KJV Marrk 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

KJV Matthew 3:14... But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? 15. Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now, for thus it becometh us to fulfil all rightesousness. Then He suffered Him.

KJV Matthew 28:19..... Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:.

Acts 8:12-18: But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized.

John 3; 22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.
23 And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.

Quote from Billy Graham that is note worthy;
....Also, to clarify I did not say remission of sin takes place at repentance. Scripture makes it clear that it occurs upon obedience to water baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus. Each is a step of faith, along with receiving the Holy Ghost, in the process of one's spiritual rebirth

.."Paul explains the doctrinal significance of what occurs when one is baptized.His explanation is found in his letter to those who had already been obedient to the command.

Paul tells the Roman Christians what actually occurred when they were/are baptized; they were baptized into His death. Being buried with Jesus into His death resulted in their sin being destroyed.

Even though Paul explains this concept, the NEW AGE RELIGION TEACHING is......... that water baptism is nothing other than a mere public display.......... And that is so far removed from the truth.

Keep in mind that Satan knows if he can continue to perpetuate that lie ...... he can keep people from entering the kingdom of God. Thus He has proven scripture which says ...in the end times there will be ...great delusions.....they are here.

Conclusion....teaching that baptism is not necessary is violation of Rev. 22;19.... And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. 20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. (Also two other books of the Bible).

 

[BeeThePeace]

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+10&version=ESV

The Holy Spirit Falls on the Gentiles
Acts 10:44 While Peter was still saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word. 45 And the believers from among the circumcised who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out even on the Gentiles. 46 For they were hearing them speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter declared, 47 “Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?”48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to remain for some days.


Salvation, and the indwelling holy spirit. Before Baptism.