"Father, forgive them............."

[NotmebutHim]

"There were also two others, criminals, led with Him to be put to death. 33 And when they had come to the place called Calvary, there they crucified Him, and the criminals, one on the right hand and the other on the left. 34 [h]Then Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do.”
And they divided His garments and cast lots. 35 And the people stood looking on. But even the rulers with them sneered, saying, “He saved others; let Him save Himself if He is the Christ, the chosen of God.” - Luke 23:32-35 NKJV

The part I want to focus on is when Jesus said "Father, forgive them.........."

I've wondered for a while, what exactly did He ask the Father to forgive them for?

Scripture does not contradict itself; I will say that up front.

However, there's a Scripture passage in 1 Corinthians that suggests that those who crucified Jesus did so out of ignorance. Now, I'm not sure if that passage is referring to humans or to spirit beings, but I do think it's relevant here:

"However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God [c]ordained before the ages for our glory, 8 which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. " - 1 Corinthians 2:6-8 NKJV

But also consider a famous passage in Romans 1:

"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who [d]suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is [e]manifest [f]in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and [g]Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like [h]corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things." - Romans 1:18-23 NKJV

I've heard (and read) where some say that those who wanted Jesus crucified and those who carried it out didn't know that He was/is God, or at least the Jewish Messiah. However, others have maintained that they knew full well who Jesus was/is and wanted/had Him crucified anyway.

So the question I'm struggling with is this: Do the Scriptures teach ignorance or full knowledge with regard to the crucifixion of Jesus? Or is it both? To be honest, I lean toward it being both things, but I want to know what your thoughts are.

I hope I haven't taken any Scripture out of context, because context is VERY important.

Thanks!

 

[Live4Him3]

I've heard (and read) where some say that those who wanted Jesus crucified and those who carried it out didn't know that He was/is God, or at least the Jewish Messiah. However, others have maintained that they knew full well who Jesus was/is and wanted/had Him crucified anyway.

So the question I'm struggling with is this: Do the Scriptures teach ignorance or full knowledge with regard to the crucifixion of Jesus? Or is it both? To be honest, I lean toward it being both things, but I want to know what your thoughts are.

I think that Jesus provided the answer to your question in several different places, but it seems rather obvious here:

"Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also." (John 8:19)

 

[Live4Him3]

The answer to your question seems pretty obvious here, too:

Acts chapter 3

[12] And when Peter saw it, he answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel, why marvel ye at this? or why look ye so earnestly on us, as though by our own power or holiness we had made this man to walk?
[13] The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.
[14] But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;
[15] And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.
[16] And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.
[17] And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers.
[18] But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.

For those who might not already know this, the Old English word "wot" means "know".

 

[Journeyman]

"There were also two others, criminals, led with Him to be put to death. 33 And when they had come to the place called Calvary, there they crucified Him, and the criminals, one on the right hand and the other on the left. 34 [h]Then Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do.”
And they divided His garments and cast lots. 35 And the people stood looking on. But even the rulers with them sneered, saying, “He saved others; let Him save Himself if He is the Christ, the chosen of God.” - Luke 23:32-35 NKJV

The part I want to focus on is when Jesus said "Father, forgive them.........."

I've wondered for a while, what exactly did He ask the Father to forgive them for?

Scripture does not contradict itself; I will say that up front.

However, there's a Scripture passage in 1 Corinthians that suggests that those who crucified Jesus did so out of ignorance. Now, I'm not sure if that passage is referring to humans or to spirit beings, but I do think it's relevant here:

"However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God [c]ordained before the ages for our glory, 8 which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. " - 1 Corinthians 2:6-8 NKJV

But also consider a famous passage in Romans 1:

"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who [d]suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is [e]manifest [f]in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and [g]Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like [h]corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things." - Romans 1:18-23 NKJV

I've heard (and read) where some say that those who wanted Jesus crucified and those who carried it out didn't know that He was/is God, or at least the Jewish Messiah. However, others have maintained that they knew full well who Jesus was/is and wanted/had Him crucified anyway.

So the question I'm struggling with is this: Do the Scriptures teach ignorance or full knowledge with regard to the crucifixion of Jesus? Or is it both? To be honest, I lean toward it being both things, but I want to know what your thoughts are.

I hope I haven't taken any Scripture out of context, because context is VERY important.

Thanks!

I don't think either group knew. I don't think it really hits people, until they consider their sin against God and God in human flesh.

 

[Magenta]

Do the Scriptures teach ignorance or full knowledge with regard to the crucifixion of Jesus? Or is it
both? To be honest, I lean toward it being both things, but I want to know what your thoughts are.

I think it is a little bit of both Though more leaning to not knowing. Yet almost a denial,
since Jesus' ministry contained many Messianic healings and fulfilled many prophesies.

This page (<= link ) has some interesting things to say on it

 

[Eli1]

This verse says that Christians should not carry any guns.

 

[Magenta]

This verse says that Christians should not carry any guns.

Eh?

 

[Nehemiah6]

So the question I'm struggling with is this: Do the Scriptures teach ignorance or full knowledge with regard to the crucifixion of Jesus? Or is it both?

How about willful ignorance? The enemies of Christ displayed willful ignorance. Take the case of the triumphal entry into Jerusalem just a few short days before the crucifixion. Any objective person seeing that would say "This is indeed the Messiah/King of Israel. We must honor Him and worship Him". And recall all of Christ's miracles and teachings. But that is not what happened with the religious leadership of Israel. "They hated Him without a cause".

 

[Magenta]

How about willful ignorance? The enemies of Christ displayed willful ignorance. Take the case of the triumphal entry into Jerusalem just a few short days before the crucifixion. Any objective person seeing that would say "This is indeed the Messiah/King of Israel. We must honor Him and worship Him". And recall all of Christ's miracles and teachings. But that is not what happened with the religious leadership of Israel. "They hated Him without a cause".

“If you were blind,” Jesus replied, “you would not be guilty of sin. But since you
claim you can see, your guilt remains.” John 9:41, spoken by Jesus to the Pharisees,
after they questioned Him regarding the healing of a man blind from birth.

Never before has anyone heard of opening the eyes of a man born blind. John 9:32

So when the crowd had assembled, Pilate asked them, “Which one do you want me to release to you: Barabbas,
or Jesus who is called Christ?” For he knew it was out of envy that they had handed Jesus over to him. Matt 27:17-18

 

[Gideon300]

"There were also two others, criminals, led with Him to be put to death. 33 And when they had come to the place called Calvary, there they crucified Him, and the criminals, one on the right hand and the other on the left. 34 [h]Then Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do.”
And they divided His garments and cast lots. 35 And the people stood looking on. But even the rulers with them sneered, saying, “He saved others; let Him save Himself if He is the Christ, the chosen of God.” - Luke 23:32-35 NKJV

The part I want to focus on is when Jesus said "Father, forgive them.........."

I've wondered for a while, what exactly did He ask the Father to forgive them for?

Scripture does not contradict itself; I will say that up front.

However, there's a Scripture passage in 1 Corinthians that suggests that those who crucified Jesus did so out of ignorance. Now, I'm not sure if that passage is referring to humans or to spirit beings, but I do think it's relevant here:

"However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God [c]ordained before the ages for our glory, 8 which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. " - 1 Corinthians 2:6-8 NKJV

But also consider a famous passage in Romans 1:

"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who [d]suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is [e]manifest [f]in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and [g]Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like [h]corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things." - Romans 1:18-23 NKJV

I've heard (and read) where some say that those who wanted Jesus crucified and those who carried it out didn't know that He was/is God, or at least the Jewish Messiah. However, others have maintained that they knew full well who Jesus was/is and wanted/had Him crucified anyway.

So the question I'm struggling with is this: Do the Scriptures teach ignorance or full knowledge with regard to the crucifixion of Jesus? Or is it both? To be honest, I lean toward it being both things, but I want to know what your thoughts are.

I hope I haven't taken any Scripture out of context, because context is VERY important.

Thanks!

What the rulers of this age, which I take to be satanic, not human, did not know was the consequences of crucifying Jesus. Satan brought about His own downfall. Lord Jesus crushed Satan's head, dis-armed and de-feeted him. There's not much left! OK, awful puns, but I'm sure you understand. Lord Jesus was charged with the crime of blasphemy because he claimed to be God. Obviously the Jewish leaders rejected that claim.

Romans 1 is referring to God, not to Jesus. The creation speaks to every man everywhere, from the beginning of time as we know it. Lord Jesus spoke and ministered for 3-1/2 years.

Romans 1 traces the spiritual, moral and mental decline of man from the time of Adam's fall. That decline was reversed for a time as the gospel was preached and men repented. We are seeing the decline once more as men reject God's ways and glorify sin instead. This is especially true of the so-called Christian world.

 

[Magenta]

Satan brought about His own downfall. Lord Jesus crushed Satan's head, dis-armed and de-feeted him. There's not much left! OK, awful puns

 

[montana123]

"There were also two others, criminals, led with Him to be put to death. 33 And when they had come to the place called Calvary, there they crucified Him, and the criminals, one on the right hand and the other on the left. 34 [h]Then Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do.”
And they divided His garments and cast lots. 35 And the people stood looking on. But even the rulers with them sneered, saying, “He saved others; let Him save Himself if He is the Christ, the chosen of God.” - Luke 23:32-35 NKJV

The part I want to focus on is when Jesus said "Father, forgive them.........."

I've wondered for a while, what exactly did He ask the Father to forgive them for?

Scripture does not contradict itself; I will say that up front.

However, there's a Scripture passage in 1 Corinthians that suggests that those who crucified Jesus did so out of ignorance. Now, I'm not sure if that passage is referring to humans or to spirit beings, but I do think it's relevant here:

"However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God [c]ordained before the ages for our glory, 8 which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. " - 1 Corinthians 2:6-8 NKJV

But also consider a famous passage in Romans 1:

"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who [d]suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is [e]manifest [f]in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and [g]Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like [h]corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things." - Romans 1:18-23 NKJV

I've heard (and read) where some say that those who wanted Jesus crucified and those who carried it out didn't know that He was/is God, or at least the Jewish Messiah. However, others have maintained that they knew full well who Jesus was/is and wanted/had Him crucified anyway.

So the question I'm struggling with is this: Do the Scriptures teach ignorance or full knowledge with regard to the crucifixion of Jesus? Or is it both? To be honest, I lean toward it being both things, but I want to know what your thoughts are.

I hope I haven't taken any Scripture out of context, because context is VERY important.

Thanks!

The Bible says a person can blaspheme against the Son, flesh, and be forgiven, but cannot blaspheme against the Spirit and be forgiven.

The people who crucified Jesus did not blaspheme against God but against the Son, flesh, so they could be forgiven.

Paul persecuted the Church but he did not blaspheme against God for he claimed to be a Pharisee of the Pharisees but he went against the Son, flesh, for he did not believe he was from God.

I do not think anybody that really thought Jesus was of God would of went along with crucifying Jesus.

Jesus asked the Father to forgive them for crucifying Him.

 

[p_rehbein]

This verse says that Christians should not carry any guns.

Seriously?

How in the world did you come up with this? You DO KNOW that one or more of the Disciples carry swords, right?

No, a sword is not a gun, but they didn't have guns at the time, and a sword was quite a deadly weapon........even able to cut off ears

Anyway, this is all moot.........because that has to be the worst interpretation of a Scripture I have ever read here on CC.

 

[p_rehbein]

F.Y.I.

Why did Jesus say “Father, forgive them” on the cross?

Jesus prayed, “Father, forgive them,” because He was fulfilling Old Testament prophecy: “He bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors” ( Isaiah 53:12 ). From the cross, Jesus interceded for sinners. Today, risen and glorified, Jesus remains the “one mediator between God and mankind” ( 1 Timothy 2:5 ).

 

[Pilgrimshope]

F.Y.I.

Why did Jesus say “Father, forgive them” on the cross?

Jesus prayed, “Father, forgive them,” because He was fulfilling Old Testament prophecy: “He bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors” ( Isaiah 53:12 ). From the cross, Jesus interceded for sinners. Today, risen and glorified, Jesus remains the “one mediator between God and mankind” ( 1 Timothy 2:5 ).

yes and Jesus dying is the propitiation for sin as he died he Also gave the purpose of his death “ forgive them”
Him saying that is important it’s the purpose of the sin sacrifice to forgive and remit sin

 

[Live4Him3]

From the cross, Jesus interceded for sinners.

Which begs another question:

Was Jesus' prayer answered?

In other words, did the Father truly forgive those for whom Jesus prayed or did they need to meet some sort of prerequisites first, like faith in Christ and repentance, in order to be forgiven?

 

[posthuman]

Which begs another question:

Was Jesus' prayer answered?

In other words, did the Father truly forgive those for whom Jesus prayed or did they need to meet some sort of prerequisites first, like faith in Christ and repentance, in order to be forgiven?

it is impossible that Christ prays and the thing doesn't come to pass.

 

[posthuman]

"There were also two others, criminals, led with Him to be put to death. 33 And when they had come to the place called Calvary, there they crucified Him, and the criminals, one on the right hand and the other on the left. 34 [h]Then Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do.”
And they divided His garments and cast lots. 35 And the people stood looking on. But even the rulers with them sneered, saying, “He saved others; let Him save Himself if He is the Christ, the chosen of God.” - Luke 23:32-35 NKJV

The part I want to focus on is when Jesus said "Father, forgive them.........."

I've wondered for a while, what exactly did He ask the Father to forgive them for?

Scripture does not contradict itself; I will say that up front.

However, there's a Scripture passage in 1 Corinthians that suggests that those who crucified Jesus did so out of ignorance. Now, I'm not sure if that passage is referring to humans or to spirit beings, but I do think it's relevant here:

"However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God [c]ordained before the ages for our glory, 8 which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. " - 1 Corinthians 2:6-8 NKJV

But also consider a famous passage in Romans 1:

"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who [d]suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is [e]manifest [f]in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and [g]Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like [h]corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things." - Romans 1:18-23 NKJV

I've heard (and read) where some say that those who wanted Jesus crucified and those who carried it out didn't know that He was/is God, or at least the Jewish Messiah. However, others have maintained that they knew full well who Jesus was/is and wanted/had Him crucified anyway.

So the question I'm struggling with is this: Do the Scriptures teach ignorance or full knowledge with regard to the crucifixion of Jesus? Or is it both? To be honest, I lean toward it being both things, but I want to know what your thoughts are.

I hope I haven't taken any Scripture out of context, because context is VERY important.

Thanks!

my question is, exactly who is He forgiving?
who are the ones that do not know what they are doing?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

my question is, exactly who is He forgiving?
who are the ones that do not know what they are doing?

remember God purposely let them become blind in the ot because they wouldn’t repent he made israel blind which meant the prophecies of Christ bekng crucified in Jerusalem would come to oss surely if they didn’t know him when he came they would Killhim for claiming to be the Christ.

in this by Israel’s rejection and crucifixion of the messiah his crucifixion was fulfilled and the gospel was sent to all nations fulfilling the word to Abraham “ father of many nations “


God did this to accomplish his Will in beginning with israel Preaching the gospel to all nations offering salvation to the ends of the earth

he did this

“And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; And seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people's heart is waxed gross, And their ears are dull of hearing, And their eyes they have closed; Lest at any time they should see with their eyes, And hear with their ears, And should understand with their heart, And should be converted, and I should heal them.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭13:14-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

what Jesus is talking about is when God blinded ot israel because of all their abominations

“Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me. And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭6:8-10‬ ‭

see Israel’s rejection had to be , Jesus was always going to be crucified just outside the gates of Jerusalem by his people. This is how God would gather all
Nations into the covenant of Abraham. If Jesus wasn’t rejected and crucified in Jerusalem the gospel would never have been fulfilled they caused it through constant rebellion but his plan unfolded through Christ being rejected and fulfilling the ot curse and then his salvation bekng spread to all nations beginning with israel after wards they relented and were forgiven many who had demanded his death and we’re present and guilty those who hears Jesus forgive them fornthier blindness fore determines by God to bring the gospel to pass

“Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

…This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:22-24, 32-33, 36-41‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Those who later believed and would believe is who I’d say he’s talking to



“Having yet therefore one son, his wellbeloved, he sent him also last unto them, saying, They will reverence my son. But those husbandmen said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and the inheritance shall be our's. And they took him, and killed him, and cast him out of the vineyard. What shall therefore the Lord of the vineyard do? he will come and destroy the husbandmen, and will give the vineyard unto others. And have ye not read this scripture; The stone which the builders rejected Is become the head of the corner: This was the Lord's doing, And it is marvellous in our eyes?”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭12:6-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[Live4Him3]

it is impossible that Christ prays and the thing doesn't come to pass.

Hey, posthuman.

May I ask exactly what these people were forgiven of?

Was it simply their ignorance ("they know not what they do") in relation to Christ's crucifixion?

Was it that and something more?

Was it something altogether different?

I'm guessing that you're referring to the first option, but I just want to make sure that I understand what you believe.

Thanks for any clarification.