Free Will - A More Exhaustive Look

[XavierJesusLovesIndia]

Hi 2nd Timothy Group. Right. And don't they suggest freedom to choose? Here are a couple more. Gotta run now. Be back later. God Bless.

Joshua 24:15

15 But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD.”

Mark 8:34

34 Then he called the crowd to him along with his disciples and said: “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

And don't they suggest freedom to choose?

There are many, many, many verses that indicate CLEARLY that we are to choose. I do not deny this.

What I am doing is showing that there is an alternate side to this concept of "free will." The objective is to get us to think about why it is that there is clearly so much Holy Mind Control over creation, yet the idea to freely choose seems to exist.

How do we balance these two ideas considering that the Bible cannot contradict itself?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Surely, those of us who have studied king Saul and his relationship must have felt sorrow for the king. Why? Because we understand that it wasn't Saul who was in control of his own thoughts, choices, and decisions. Simply put, it wasn't right that the evil spirit that was forced upon him would cause him to hate David as he did.

God NEVER forces sinful actions on anyone. It is sad how Calvinists so sorely misunderstand God's workings.

As I showed with Samson in your previous post.

What Calvinists cannot prove is that God causes "the elect" to believe. Christ died for everyone, and therefore everyone can be saved and everyone believes from his own decision.

 

[FreeGrace2]

There are many, many, many verses that indicate CLEARLY that we are to choose. I do not deny this.

What I am doing is showing that there is an alternate side to this concept of "free will." The objective is to get us to think about why it is that there is clearly so much Holy Mind Control over creation, yet the idea to freely choose seems to exist.

How do we balance these two ideas considering that the Bible cannot contradict itself?

There is nothing to "balance".

God never caused Judas to betray. God KNEW from His omniscience that if Judas was given the opportunity, he would take it. So God placed Judas WHEN and WHERE He did, per Acts 17:26, so that Judas would "do the deed".

 

[Magenta]

2 Corinthians 3:14-15 NLT - "But the people's minds were hardened, and to this day whenever the old covenant is being read, the same veil covers their minds so they cannot understand the truth. And this veil can be removed only by believing in Christ. 15 Yes, even today when they read Moses' writings, their hearts are covered with that veil, and they do not understand."

2 Corinthians 3:13-15~ We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to keep the Israelites
from gazing at the end of what was fading away. But their minds were closed. For to this day the same veil remains at the reading
of the old covenant. It has not been lifted, because only in Christ can it be removed. And even to this day when Moses is read, a veil
covers their hearts. But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Staying on the theme of king Saul . . .

1 Samuel 19:20-24 NKJV - "Then Saul sent messengers to take David. And when they saw the group of prophets prophesying, and Samuel standing as leader over them, the Spirit of God came upon the messengers of Saul, and they also prophesied. And when Saul was told, he sent other messengers, and they prophesied likewise. Then Saul sent messengers again the third time, and they prophesied also. Then he also went to Ramah, and came to the great well that is at Sechu. So he asked, and said, "Where are Samuel and David?" And someone said, "Indeed they are at Naioth in Ramah." So he went there to Naioth in Ramah. Then the Spirit of God was upon him also, and he went on and prophesied until he came to Naioth in Ramah. And he also stripped off his clothes and prophesied before Samuel in like manner, and lay down naked all that day and all that night. Therefore they say, "Is Saul also among the prophets?"

How do we avoid this idea of Mind Control when we see king Saul flipping back and forth from first having a good Spirit of God, only to be stripped and subsequently being given an evil Spirit. If a person didn't know any better, they might think of king Saul as a pre-image of young Saul as found in early Acts. However, regarding king Saul, we soon find that God does indeed strip Saul of a Good Spirit only to give him an evil Spirit that clearly leads him into sin. We then find that Saul gives David a reprieve because he, Saul, doesn't seem to be caused to commit evil. Incredibly, king Saul then again is consumed by the Evil Spirit from the Lord, who causes Saul to attempt to murder David yet again. Saul then summons others to murder David, but here, we see that a good Spirit from the Lord is upon him, and now he is behaving completely differently.

Back and forth . . . the Lord causes king Saul to think and behave as he does. Saul is perhaps the single most inconsistent human in the Bible, but is this his fault? Is this his choice? Did king Saul choose to act the way he did, or were the contents of his life chosen for him . . . including his kingship? That's right . . . Saul's life was laid out before him, and there was nothing he could do about it.

If anyone had the right to complain about a lack of free will, it would certainly be king Saul.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Staying on the theme of king Saul . . .

If anyone had the right to complain about a lack of free will, it would certainly be king Saul.

How silly. The Bible proves that man has freedom of choice, in ALL things.

What Calvinists are desperate to support is their flawed doctrine of TULIP, which teaches that God has to cause His "elect" to believe, otherwise they can't.

Nonsense. With Samson, Pharoah, Saul and Judas, God simply placed each of them WHEN and WHERE He did, per Acts 17:26, so that they WOULD do what He wanted done.

iow, they were inclined to do it anyway. God simply placed them so that they COULD.

iow, God used their FREEDOM of choice to do what His will wanted!

But no Calvinist understands this. Maybe they WANT a God who loves to pull strings and FORCE people to do what He wants, regardless of what they would do if given a chance. Sad.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Regardless of the translation, the below is a pretty odd prayer for David to offer to the Lord if, in fact, God does not do such a thing (as to take away the freedom of thought, choice, and behavior). Why would David offer this prayer to the Lord if he knew, for a fact, that this was His practice?

Psalm 141:3-4 NLT - "Take control of what I say, O LORD, and guard my lips. Don't let me drift toward evil or take part in acts of wickedness. Don't let me share in the delicacies of those who do wrong."

This seems to fit most with what I believe about free will, which is that it is limited. From what I gather, God does, in fact, control certain elements of our lives, but we are given certain freedoms. Why would David offer this prayer at all if this were not the case? If he knew, conclusively, that his free will was totally stripped, he would not offer such a prayer to his God. That said, it is undeniable that David is at least asking that his choices be taken away from him; and this is a prayer that shows that he is aware that God knows what is best for him . . . and not himself.

These things that David asks for: these are "Fruits of the Spirit." And what are the Fruits of the Spirit the result of? They are the result of a controlling Spirit, a Holy Spirit that is Effectual, Causing the Lord's Children to act in a way that aligns with the Laws of the Spirit of Life (Rom 08:02).

NASB20 - "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death."

Does not the below prayer, taught by Christ Himself sound familiar?

Matthew 6:13 NASB20 - "And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from evil."

When a person thinks about it, isn't this a rather odd thing for Christ to teach us to pray? Why would we ask that God not lead us into temptation if we had True free will?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Regardless of the translation, the below is a pretty odd prayer for David to offer to the Lord if, in fact, God does not do such a thing (as to take away the freedom of thought, choice, and behavior). Why would David offer this prayer to the Lord if he knew, for a fact, that this was His practice?

Well, let's see what David prayed and see if this poster has even read it correctly.

Psalm 141:3-4 NLT - "Take control of what I say, O LORD, and guard my lips. Don't let me drift toward evil or take part in acts of wickedness. Don't let me share in the delicacies of those who do wrong."

This seems to fit most with what I believe about free will, which is that it is limited. From what I gather, God does, in fact, control certain elements of our lives, but we are given certain freedoms. Why would David offer this prayer at all if this were not the case? If he knew, conclusively, that his free will was totally stripped, he would not offer such a prayer to his God. That said, it is undeniable that David is at least asking that his choices be taken away from him

"at least"??? No, David didn't ask for that. He was asking for guidance. Very clearly. Don't all believers pray that way? If not, they should be.

And this is the point. This poster really believes that David's prayer above is asking God to "take away his choices". No, it isn't that.

David is asking God to guide him to make the RIGHT choices. Because David was fully able to make evil choices, which we see in in life.

But these Calvinists are just so desperate to prove that God CAUSES people to do things, even things that are totally AGAINST God Himself.

and this is a prayer that shows that he is aware that God knows what is best for him . . . and not himself.

Yes, David was rational and reasonable. He knew he was a sinner. He was asking for guidance in making the right choices.

These things that David asks for: these are "Fruits of the Spirit." And what are the Fruits of the Spirit the result of? They are the result of a controlling Spirit, a Holy Spirit that is Effectual, Causing the Lord's Children to act in a way that aligns with the Laws of the Spirit of Life (Rom 08:02).

Wow, does this EVER PROVE the erroneous ideas of Calvinists! The Holy Spirit ISN'T a "controlling Spirit", but this shows that Calvinists cannot resist viewing all of God's actions as forcing people to do what they wouldn't otherwise do.

When a person thinks about it, isn't this a rather odd thing for Christ to teach us to pray? Why would we ask that God not lead us into temptation if we had True free will?

What a sad question here. It is BECAUSE man DOES HAVE FREE WILL that all believers SHOULD pray for God to lead us in the right way.

In fact, it takes FREE WILL to even ask such a question. There is no limit to what man is able to choose.

Look at David. He was free to rape Bathsheba and murder her husband. He sure paid for his sins though.

This poster hasn't come close to proving Calvinism's claim about man not having free will, or that it's just very limited.

 

[Polar]

Literally every single thing that we do is a choice. It is mind boggling to think we do not choose. Creating obscure doctrine from personal Bible study is not proof of anything other than a person's choice to believe they have knowledge that most do not have. That, is not a gift from God but rather an over-stated belief in one's own intellect and ability to comprehend better than others.

It is simply the same lie Calvin believed and there seems to be a run on people claiming they believe the same way only they are not Calvinists.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Literally every single thing that we do is a choice. It is mind boggling to think we do not choose.

Have you not been reading all that I've been posting . . . story after story of people being controlled in their choices and behaviors? Why would you reject what is obvious?

Rejecting obvious and clear Scripture is what boggles [my] mind. It is so offensive that people do this . . . consistently.

 

[Polar]

Have you not been reading all that I've been posting . . . story after story of people being controlled in their choices and behaviors? Why would you reject what is obvious?

Rejecting obvious and clear Scripture is what boggles [my] mind. It is so offensive that people do this . . . consistently.

Gosh no. You didn't read all that posted, back when I did. And then you denied what 3 of us were saying about Pharaoh changing his mind. Further, you twisted some of it when you did read it.

What I see regarding control, is you trying to control the narrative while saying how much you just want the truth.

That, is what is obvious and clear.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Gosh no. You didn't read all that posted, back when I did. And then you denied what 3 of us were saying about Pharaoh changing his mind. Further, you twisted some of it when you did read it.

What I see regarding control, is you trying to control the narrative while saying how much you just want the truth.

That, is what is obvious and clear.

Ah .. . . ok champ.

 

[Polar]

Ah .. . . ok champ.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Polar said:
Literally every single thing that we do is a choice. It is mind boggling to think we do not choose.

Have you not been reading all that I've been posting . . . story after story of people being controlled in their choices and behaviors? Why would you reject what is obvious?

He also read all of my responses to your stories, showing the REAL explanation of the passages you presented.

Rejecting obvious and clear Scripture is what boggles [my] mind.

Polar and I fully agree. Why in the world would someone believe the claims of Calvinism when the opposite is so very clear about election, total depravity, and the atonement.

It is so offensive that people do this . . . consistently.

I would agree to that.

 

[Polar]

Polar said:
Literally every single thing that we do is a choice. It is mind boggling to think we do not choose.

He also read all of my responses to your stories, showing the REAL explanation of the passages you presented.


Polar and I fully agree. Why in the world would someone believe the claims of Calvinism when the opposite is so very clear about election, total depravity, and the atonement.


I would agree to that.

Seems people agreed we had a choice until things got 'reformed'. That's what happens when you try to fix what ain't broke. Luther was headed in the right direction, then Calvin got excited and saw an opportunity to slay people he didn't like and use God as the excuse for doing it. But we won't bring that up.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Seems people agreed we had a choice until things got 'reformed'. That's what happens when you try to fix what ain't broke. Luther was headed in the right direction, then Calvin got excited and saw an opportunity to slay people he didn't like and use God as the excuse for doing it. But we won't bring that up.

Since you seem to have a snotty, anti-Christian attitude, there doesn't seem to be a reason for you to post on this thread. Please take your attitude elsewhere . . . perhaps to the thread you started that no one wants to participate in.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Certainly, and once again, the choice of a person is defied in the below text . . . (jumping back to Job, Day 7 of the timeline, chronological order of Scripture):

Job 14:5 NIV - "A person's days are determined; you have decreed the number of his months and have set limits he cannot exceed."

Beyond our own ability to choose and determine our own number of days, God's Will, or Plan, is supreme and over-riding. If God's Will is that we be alive for a certain time and/or event . . . there is nothing that we can do about it.

Regarding the Apostle Paul, Jesus said: Acts 9:15-16 ESV - "But the Lord said to him, "Go, for he is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles and kings and the children of Israel. 16 For I will show him how much he must suffer for the sake of my name."

Clearly stated, Paul was chosen for these tasks, duties, responsibilities, and sufferings. This was the Lord's Will and it was accomplished according to the Eternal Plan that Paul spoke about.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

You are describing yourself. Why do you so dislike anyone who points out something in scripture that does not suit your narrative?

The thread I started did not express my opinions but rather was left open to discuss.

You don't own the forum. What is up with some people here that they think they can tell other people to leave? I would think people who do that, have been here too long and are deluded as to how things work here.

I didn't even make it to the end of your first sentence. Please place me on "Ignore." You and I have no reason for further communication.

 

[Polar]

Since you seem to have a snotty, anti-Christian attitude, there doesn't seem to be a reason for you to post on this thread. Please take your attitude elsewhere . . . perhaps to the thread you started that no one wants to participate in.

Yawn. Anything else?