Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation, there is no Left Behind Secret Rapture=Stop causing fear.

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FreeGrace2 said:
I flatly reject soul sleep. The Bible NEVER says that souls sleep.
Something else that has not been said, is now being brought into the conversation like it was. Is that because you have no where else to go in the conversation we are having?
My comment was directly from what YOU said. If you don't believe in soul sleep then make sure your posts don't suggest that.
 
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FreeGrace2 said:
You have a very narrow minded view of Scripture. The words "those who belong to Him" ABSOLUTELY mean all saved people.
So now you are taking parts of my responses and running with new thoughts?
No, your problem is that you apparently do not believe or understand 1 Cor 15:23. But it is very clear and easy to understand and believe.
 
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FreeGrace2 said:
There is NOTHING in 1 Cor 15:23 about "them that slept". I think you are simply conflating verses.

"those who belong to Jesus" means SAVED people. ALL of them. Or Scripture would have clarified.
I didn't list that verse, you did
Because you apparently do not believe that verse. That's why I keep bringing up the truth.
 
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FreeGrace2 said:
I have no idea what you are talking about. There is ONE resurrection, which will be "when He comes" at the 2nd Advent.

If you are convinced there are more than one resurrection of the saved, then quote each verse that describes the different ones. And include the timeline for each one.

I don't think you can do that. I'm very familiar with the NT.
You wrote it all on your own.
Is this just a snarky snipe?

Again, if you believe there are multiple resurrections of believers, then prove your claim by quoting the passages and explaining WHEN these multiple resurrections occur.
 
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FreeGrace2 said:
I gave you verses. It's up to you to believe them or not.
I believe all verses. Just not all interpretations given by others.
How about this, then.

Quote 1 Cor 15:23 and then provide YOUR interpretation of the verse.

I don't think it needs ANY "interpretation" since it is so clear to me.

But please explain to me what your brain thinks of the verse.
 
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Did I say Jesus FIRST gave them glorified bodies? No, I didn't. He took souls to heaven. They are still waiting for their resurrection bodies.
NO, YOU DIDN'T BUT I wish you would have


Not sure what part of SOWN, RAISED UP you can't get a handle on?

I believe I am done trying to discuss what is written with someone who constantly ADDS to the words of God. I have done my best to show you where this is taking place and you refuse to acknowledge it. You speak of a resurrection then turn around and say you didn't. I agree, these circles must end. Again, I will try my best to avoid anything I have previously explained from this point on.


again, NO WHERE is it written SOWN, GONE UP, RETURNED AND THEN RAISED UP. that is just a CLASSIC EXAMPLE OF SOMEONE 'ADDING' TO SCRIPTURE

1Corinthians 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

no LEAVING without being raised, no RETURNING to be raised. YOUR WORDS, YOUR ADDITIONS TO GODS WORD

1Corinthians 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

Again, no leaving, then returning to be raised - those are words you are placing there yourself and then suggesting I have the problem

1Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Again, sown, raised. NO LEAVING AND THEN RETURNING AND THEN BEING RAISED. All of that is of your own doing.


If you can't acknowledge this simple basic thing, I can't help. I can and will walk away confident I tried my best, and though it would seem I completely failed, I succeeded in doing the will of GOD.

 
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FreeGrace2 said:
I have no idea what you are talking about. There is ONE resurrection, which will be "when He comes" at the 2nd Advent.

If you are convinced there are more than one resurrection of the saved, then quote each verse that describes the different ones. And include the timeline for each one.

I don't think you can do that. I'm very familiar with the NT.

Is this just a snarky snipe?

Again, if you believe there are multiple resurrections of believers, then prove your claim by quoting the passages and explaining WHEN these multiple resurrections occur.
6/26/22

One last time, and now we will both know that if you ask this again, it is only for the purpose of asking and the deception that comes of asking it again, like it was never answered.


Matthew 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

Matthew 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies*** of the saints which slept**** arose,

Matthew 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
THAT'S ONE



1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
THAT'S TWO



Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
THAT'S THREE




***DOESN'T SAY 'DUSTY DECOMPOSING BODIES' and we KNOW is isn't dusty decomposing bodies that arose because we can read WHAT IS WRITTEN and know the truth of what is and what isn't being said

1 Corinthians 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

1 Corinthians 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

****1Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
THAT'S ONE YOU REFUSE TO ACKNOWLEDGE TIME AND AGAIN TO GO TO 23.


To avoid all misunderstanding I have listed 3 resurrections from the dead. You may not agree with them, but there is no need to ever ask me again, as you now have my answer. If you do, we will know it is for a different purpose entirely.









Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
Acts 17:12 Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.
 
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FreeGrace2 said:
Did I say Jesus FIRST gave them glorified bodies? No, I didn't. He took souls to heaven. They are still waiting for their resurrection bodies.
NO, YOU DIDN'T BUT I wish you would have
You may wish all you want, but then I would be in error.

Not sure what part of SOWN, RAISED UP you can't get a handle on?
I don't know what your hang up is. The words "raised up" obviously refers to the glorified resurrected body given "when He comes" at the 2nd Advent. The word "sown" refers to the physical body.

I believe I am done trying to discuss what is written with someone who constantly ADDS to the words of God. I have done my best to show you where this is taking place and you refuse to acknowledge it.
Hm. I don't recall any post where you tried to show me "where this is taking place". Maybe you could try to be quite a bit more clear.

You speak of a resurrection then turn around and say you didn't.
I don't do those kinds of things. So, prove your empty claim with a quote and cite the post #. Or I and everyone else will know that you are making it all up.

I agree, these circles must end. Again, I will try my best to avoid anything I have previously explained from this point on.
again, NO WHERE is it written SOWN, GONE UP, RETURNED AND THEN RAISED UP. that is just a CLASSIC EXAMPLE OF SOMEONE 'ADDING' TO SCRIPTURE
Apparently you don't believe that when a believer physically dies, their soul goes to heaven. Why not? Paul wrote "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord". The ONLY WAY that can happen is the soul going directly to heaven when the person dies.

1Corinthians 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
Our physical bodies are "sown in corruption" and that body will be resurrected as an imperishable body, or an immortal body.

Not hard to understand at all.

1Corinthians 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
ditto here.

1Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
ditto again.

If you can't acknowledge this simple basic thing, I can't help.
Rather, you need the help.
 
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6/26/22

One last time, and now we will both know that if you ask this again, it is only for the purpose of asking and the deception that comes of asking it again, like it was never answered.

Matthew 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
Matthew 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies*** of the saints which slept**** arose,
Matthew 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
THAT'S ONE
Are you actually calling this a resurrection where people received a glorified immortal body??? Where does the Bible make this point?

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
THAT'S TWO
No, this is that singular resurrection where "those who belong to Him" (meaning ALL believers) will receive their glorified immortal bodies. 1 Thess 4 describes the Second Advent.

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
THAT'S THREE
I've already made the point that there will be A resurrection (singular) of the saved and one of the unsaved.
John 5:28,29
28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice
29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

1 Corinthians 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1 Corinthians 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
****1Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
THAT'S ONE YOU REFUSE TO ACKNOWLEDGE TIME AND AGAIN TO GO TO 23.
v.20 is clear: Jesus Christ is the FIRST human being to receive a glorified immortal body. "of them that slept" refers to all the believers who have already died. Real simple.

Acts 26:23 - that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”

How could Paul write that Jesus was the "first to rise from the dead" after all the accounts about people coming back to life, per Matt 27, and all the people that Jesus and His disciples raised from the dead? The ONLY REASON he could is because Jesus is the FIRST to get a glorified immortal body.
Everyone you cited that came back to life DIED again. There is NOTHING in the Bible indicating that they never died again, or that they received glorified bodies.

To avoid all misunderstanding I have listed 3 resurrections from the dead.
no, you didn't. The first one didn't involve glorified bodies and therefore all of them died physically again. So it doesn't count.

There are 2 resurrections of human beings; one for all the saved and one for all the unsaved.

You may not agree with them, but there is no need to ever ask me again, as you now have my answer. If you do, we will know it is for a different purpose entirely.
I acknowledge your flawed view of "resurrection". Apparently you don't distinguish between simply coming back to life in your old physical body and being given a glorified immortal body.

Well, I do. And I've given you 2 verses that specifically state the 2 resurrections, one for the saved and one for the unsaved.

It's your job to figure them out and believe them. Or not.
 
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I forgot this


1 Corinthians 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

1 Corinthians 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

1 Corinthians 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

1 Corinthians 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

Who was sleeping/asleep/dead when Christ was crucified that He became the first fruits of?
Matthew 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

WHAT IS WRITTEN IS

CHRIST ROSE FROM THE DEAD,
THOSE THAT SLEPT ALSO ROSE FROM THE DEAD.
CHRIST BECAME THE FIRST FRUTS OF THOSE who slept and WHO ROSE FROM THE DEAD.

THIS RESURRECTION FROM THE DEAD TOOK PLACE 2000 YEARS AGO







1 Corinthians 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

We are told AGAIN RIGHT HERE THAT RESURRECTION FROM THE DEAD TOOK PLACE.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

All are going to be resurrected to face judgment. Just like Adam made everyone die, Christ will make everyone wake up from the dead. Many of those who were already dead when Christ rose up, rose up also. The resurrection from the dead came when Christ defeated death,

just like death comes for us all. Death doesn't wait to claim it's own 'till the end' and Christ doesn't wait to 'claim His own' till the end. Death came we die. Life came we live.

I set before you life and death, blessings and cursing's. Choose life.




As to your question

1 Corinthians 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

EVERY MAN is working towards A RANK. That RANK is anywhere between Vessel of Gold unto honor down to vessel of wood unto dishonor.

CHRIST THE FIRST FRUIT has the highest honor. He rises higher than anyone else ever will.

ALL those who are CHRISTS - those who while they yet live believe in Him - NEVER DIE and so follow Him to heaven, will be placed in their own order in heaven.

One way to see it
AND YOUR WORKS DO FOLLOW YOU.

Another way
A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things. But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.


Now a days Satan has everyone keeping their eye on the free gift of Salvation and arguing over 'works salvation' to keep them from seeing what is really taking place.

Yeshua paid a HIGH price to make sure that SIN didn't let death take hold of us for even a short time. HE PAID THE PENALTY, tasted death for us. And everyone keeps thinking 'I'll just repent for my sins' and go to heaven WHICH IS TRUTH, but somehow everyone seems to miss THERE IS STILL a JUDGMENT to be made.

It is in JUDGMENT that ones' RANK or 'every man in his own order' or that BODY 'but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased Him, and to every seed his own body' comes about. Some are happy just being saved. Some want to be a good workman for GOD. Some are aware of RANK, others have no clue.

Ever noticed how organized everything was when Jesus did something. Example of one is gave orders to have them sit in groups of fifty and then passed out the victuals. JUST LIKE THE MILITARY. LOTs about GOD is fashioned that way.

Genesis 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

6635. tsaba ►
Strong's Concordance
tsaba: army, war, warfare
Original Word: צָבָא
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: tsaba
Phonetic Spelling: (tsaw-baw')
Definition: army, war, warfare


organized for war
host (organized body) of angels
of the entire creation, כל צבאם Genesis 2:1

appointed time, army, battle, company, host, service, soldiers, waiting upon,
Or (feminine) tsbadah {tseb-aw-aw'}; from tsaba'; a mass of persons (or figuratively, things), especially reg. Organized for war (an army); by implication, a campaign, literally or figuratively (specifically, hardship, worship) -- appointed time, (+) army, (+) battle, company, host, service, soldiers, waiting upon, war(-fare).


FINALLY getting to my point...
5001. tagma ►
Strong's Concordance
tagma: that which has been arranged in order, spec. a division, rank
Original Word: τάγμα, ατος, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: tagma
Phonetic Spelling: (tag'-mah)
Definition: that which has been arranged in order, a division, rank
Usage: rank, division, an ordered series.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 5001 tágma (a neuter noun) – an ordered arrangement, reflecting God's perfect wisdom in ordering all of creation (it only occurs in 1 Cor 15:23). See 5021 (tassō).

5001 /tágma ("order") extends to the principle of God's ordering to its natural results.

[Compare Ps 139:16 with Eph 1:11; cf. Ps 119:89-91 with Ac 4:28, 17:26-31.]


NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
from tassó
Definition
that which has been arranged in order, spec. a division, rank
NASB Translation
order (1).

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 5001: τάγμα

τάγμα, ταγματος, τό (τάσσω);
a. properly, that which has been arranged, thing placed in order.

b. specifically, a body of soldiers, a corps: 2 Samuel 23:13; Xenophon, mem. 3, 1, 11; often in Polybius; Diodorus 17, 80; Josephus, b. j. 1, 9, 1; 3, 4, 2; (especially for the Roman 'legio' (examples in Sophocles Lexicon, under the word, 3)); hence, universally, a band, troop, class: ἕκαστος ἐν τῷ ἰδίῳ τάγματι (the same words occur in Clement of Rome, 1 Cor. 37, 3 [ET] and 41, 1 [ET]), 1 Corinthians 15:23, where Paul specifies several distinct bands or classes of those raised from the dead (A. V. order. Of the 'order' of the Essenes in Josephus, b. j. 2, 8, 3. 8).

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
division, class, group
From tasso; something orderly in arrangement (a troop), i.e. (figuratively) a series or succession -- order.


Or, I could be wrong and it's just Christ rose first and since then everyman gets in line when he dies and he sees them then.
 
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obviously refers to the glorified resurrected body given "when He comes" at the 2nd Advent. The word "sown" refers to the physical body.
obviously refers...still nothing written for what you claim? :cry: So much like that pre trib rap claim. You ask and ask and ask...and the one thing you never get is Scripture.
 
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Apparently you don't believe that when a believer physically dies, their soul goes to heaven. Why not? Paul wrote "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord". The ONLY WAY that can happen is the soul going directly to heaven when the person dies.


"Apparently I don't believe that when a believer physically dies their soul goes to heaven"


I didn't even know I had wounded you, let alone that bad. Thank God I am being as nice as I am. I can only apologize and let you be.
 
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Or, I could be wrong and it's just Christ rose first and since then everyman gets in line when he dies and he sees them then.
Well, it is really clear that you just don't want to understand. I never said any of that.

But, first, yes, you ARE wrong.

Now, here is the truth: Christ did receive a glorified body FIRST, and will be followed by ALL believers (not "everyman") when He comes back to earth at the Second Advent who will receive their glorified bodies.

So even after all my clear explanations of my view, you still didn't get it even close.

You are not even trying to. That much is clear.
 
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FreeGrace2 said:
obviously refers to the glorified resurrected body given "when He comes" at the 2nd Advent. The word "sown" refers to the physical body.
obviously refers...still nothing written for what you claim?
Well, maybe you don't consider 1 Cor 15:23 as "something", but rather as "nothing". Well, that's your problem. Not mine.

You ask and ask and ask...and the one thing you never get is Scripture.
That's true. You've never proven your point.
 
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FreeGrace2 said:
Apparently you don't believe that when a believer physically dies, their soul goes to heaven. Why not? Paul wrote "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord". The ONLY WAY that can happen is the soul going directly to heaven when the person dies.
"Apparently I don't believe that when a believer physically dies their soul goes to heaven"
From what you keep posting, that is apparent. If you believe something different, you have a real problem making your point clear.

I didn't even know I had wounded you, let alone that bad.
Your snark is hilarious. You haven't wounded me. You CAN'T wound me. I do not take any of these forums personally. There's no point in doing so. People either get the truth or they don't. That's not my problem. All I can do is state my case and share the verses that do say what I believe. How it's taken is of no interest to me.

So you can quit congratulating yourself on your fantasy ability to wound. You didn't.

Thank God I am being as nice as I am. I can only apologize and let you be.
Since you can't support your views with Scripture, that would be the best.
 

oyster67

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FreeGrace2 said:
Why would he bring up what supposedly occurrred 7 years prior? It makes no sense.

Of course it does, especially because John was REFERRING to what was coming. He was telling us what was COMING next.
Yes, I agree that it is all unfulfilled future prophecy. We only differ on what we believe will happen next.
 

oyster67

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OK, I thought you were talking PRE TRIB. I'm Sorry. Yes, the alive and remaining are changed when Christ returns and are gathered to Him to rule and reign for the Millennium.
Who do you think was getting married in Heaven just before Jesus led the armies of Heaven to Earth?

Revelation
19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed [are] they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
19:12 His eyes [were] as a flame of fire, and on his head [were] many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
 
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FreeGrace2 said:
Apparently you don't believe that when a believer physically dies, their soul goes to heaven. Why not? Paul wrote "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord". The ONLY WAY that can happen is the soul going directly to heaven when the person dies.

From what you keep posting, that is apparent. If you believe something different, you have a real problem making your point clear.


Your snark is hilarious. You haven't wounded me. You CAN'T wound me. I do not take any of these forums personally. There's no point in doing so. People either get the truth or they don't. That's not my problem. All I can do is state my case and share the verses that do say what I believe. How it's taken is of no interest to me.

So you can quit congratulating yourself on your fantasy ability to wound. You didn't.


Since you can't support your views with Scripture, that would be the best.
I am going to pray that one day you will find it to be more important to you to state the Lords case and not your own. To love others as you love yourself and could see it is your problem as it is all of ours in this many membered body. But as a young girl I think you have a good chance a one day coming to knowledge and understanding.

Reading back over our conversation it is quite obvious we don't seem to be able to hear each other. I wanted to give it one more shot. Thank you and good luck on your journey
 

oyster67

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Oyster cut off part of what I said to make it seem I said something that I didn't say. He is a dishonest person and is now on my ignore list.
I am soooooo sorry ewq. :oops:.

(It's too bad you can't see this. :unsure:)