Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation, there is no Left Behind Secret Rapture=Stop causing fear.

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
and God sends them to the proper waiting area.

The 3rd heaven IS a waiting place for the new earth, which is the eternal state. All believers who die before the Tribulation go to the 3rd heaven. All unbelievers go to "torments" in Hades, awaiting the GWT judgement and being cast into the lake of fire.

What did you think about souls who die and where they go?

I didn't ask for YOUR THOUGHTS, I asked for SCRIPTURE(S), that made you think that way. Not looking for the doctrines of man but the words of God.

What I gave you is known as "common knowledge". Are you lacking somewhat in that area?

Do you not believe that the 3rd heaven (where God the Father resides) is where souls of believers go when they die? Paul made the point about being absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. I thought every believer was aware of this.

2 Cor 5-
8 We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.
9 So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it.

Luke 16 is about Torments and where the souls of the unsaved go.

Where is this 'waiting area' you are TEACHING to be found? I know of paradise heaven and hell.

Paradise is the same place as Abraham's bosom. That's where the thief next to Jesus went when he died. But after the resurrection, Jesus took ALL OT saints to heaven.

You seem to know of some 'waiting area' I have read nothing about. I would like to read it. Could you give me Chapter and Verse so I could.

Done.

In answer to your question: I think souls who die are evil and souls who die go into the LOF

I never said anything about souls dying. Unsaved people die, and THEIR soul goes to torments, awaiting the LOF.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
The words 'raised up' refers to dead physical bodies being resurrected UP out of the ground to be joined to the soil, who will be with Jesus as He ends the Trip and Armageddon and sets up His Millennial reign on earth.

THOU SOWEST NOT THAT BODY THAT SHALL BE

No need to shout. I can hear you just fine. I'm going to adjust the rest of your loud post.

[/QUOTE]It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.

There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy:

and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

And as we have borne the image of the earthy,

we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

NO terra firma in the heaven[/QUOTE]
I don't care about "terra firms" in heaven. Why did you bring it up?

The discussion was about bodies and souls.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
I see just fine. What doesn't exist are any verses describing Jesus taking resurrected believers to heaven.

NEVER DIE. GO TO PREPARE A PLACE. FOLLOW AFTER. JESUS DIED AND ROSE, EVEN SO THEM. BRING BACK WITH HIM. WHAT IS SOWN QUICKENS A BARE GRAIN THAT GOD GIVES A BODY TO AND SPIRIT RETURNS TO GOD.

Nothing here about Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.

ALL OF THEM SAY IT.

ONLY YOU SAY THEY DON'T.

None of the verses say that Jesus takes glorified believers to heaven.

Apparently you aren't seeing so well.

The Bible does NOT say anything about Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Nope. These saints are the souls. They are awaiting their resurrected body.

Only according to you. WHAT IS WRITTEN tells a different story

If true, you SHOULD HAVE provided "what is written". But seeing that you didn't, why should I believe your opinion?

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Not in 1 Cor 15:23. Give me context for your phrase and I will respond.

Those who died under the law of sin and death.

You have a very narrow minded view of Scripture. The words "those who belong to Him" ABSOLUTELY mean all saved people.

Sleeping.

I flatly reject soul sleep. The Bible NEVER says that souls sleep.

Jesus died after them.

So what? The promise of salvation was given IN the garden of Eden, WAY BEFORE Jesus even came to earth. So WHEN Jesus died for sins is immaterial. In the OT, people looked FORWARD to the cross. In the NT, people look BACKWARD to the cross.

How could you NOT know that?

Jesus descended to those sleeping and became the first fruits of them that slept.

There is NOTHING in 1 Cor 15:23 about "them that slept". I think you are simply conflating verses.

"those who belong to Jesus" means SAVED people. ALL of them. Or Scripture would have clarified.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
I have no idea what you are talking about. There is ONE resurrection, which will be "when He comes" at the 2nd Advent.

You can keep saying it and saying it and saying it but it will still NEVER MAKE IT GODS TRUTH. THERE MAY BE 'ONE' resurrection when He comes BUT IT ISN'T THE ONLY ONE, JUST THE ONLY ONE YOU CAN SEE.

I'm getting tired of these circles you keep going around in.

If you are convinced there are more than one resurrection of the saved, then quote each verse that describes the different ones. And include the timeline for each one.

I don't think you can do that. I'm very familiar with the NT.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
There are NO verses describing Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.

I Corinthians
15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.
15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

The words you bolded say NOTHING about a trip to heaven. It is about the FACT that the living believers will be glorified when He comes.

Revelation
19:1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

What, exactly, has the wife "made herself ready" for? The marriage of the Lamb, which "is come". Means is here NOW. The marriage is about to take place. Proven by the very words.

Since Rev 19 also includes Jesus return to earth at the Second Advent, please why John would write this:

9 Then the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!” And he added, “These are the true words of God.”

Why would he bring up what supposedly occurrred 7 years prior? It makes no sense.

The Bride is seen to be in Heaven after she has been raptured and changed.

There is NOTHING about anyone being "raptured" or even "changed" at that time. You are simply reading INTO the passage what you WANT it to say.

2 fails.

 

[oyster67]

2 fails.

...

 

[John146]

Before Christ ascended, He DESCENDED to Hades and "preached to the spirits in prison". He took the saved souls from Abraham's bosom to heaven.


No, and no. How could any human bodies resurrect when 1 Cor 15:23 tells us WHEN all believers will be resurrected.


Their souls came back to mortal bodies. There is zero evidence that they received glorified bodies.

And 1 Cor 15:23 doesn't permit such a thing. So I don't have any problem with any of these accounts. Not even Lazarus received a glorified body.

Aha, another caveat...they were resurrected, but didn't receive glorified bodies. With what bodies were they walking around?

 

[oyster67]

Why would he bring up what supposedly occurrred 7 years prior? It makes no sense.

Why would he bring up something that hasn't happened yet? It makes no sense.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Aha, another caveat...they were resurrected, but didn't receive glorified bodies. With what bodies were they walking around?

Anyone who raised back to human life before Jesus received His resurrection glorified immortal body got their physical mortal body back. Why would anyone think that people who came back to life before Jesus would get a resurrection glorified immortal body?

Acts 26:23 PREVENTS such an opinion.

that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”

That's why Paul used "firstfruits" in 1 Cor 15:23.

NO ONE received a glorified immortal body BEFORE Jesus did. No one.

 

[John146]

Anyone who raised back to human life before Jesus received His resurrection glorified immortal body got their physical mortal body back. Why would anyone think that people who came back to life before Jesus would get a resurrection glorified immortal body?

Acts 26:23 PREVENTS such an opinion.

that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”

That's why Paul used "firstfruits" in 1 Cor 15:23.

NO ONE received a glorified immortal body BEFORE Jesus did. No one.

Those I referred to were raised after Christ's resurrection.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Why would he bring up what supposedly occurrred 7 years prior? It makes no sense.

Why would he bring up something that hasn't happened yet? It makes no sense.

Of course it does, especially because John was REFERRING to what was coming. He was telling us what was COMING next.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Those I referred to were raised after Christ's resurrection.

Sorry, but you didn't make that clear. I need full context in order to understand questions.

Many were raised from the graves at Jesus' crucifixion, and Jesus and His disciples also raised a number of people during His earthly ministry.

So, what people are you referring to?

 

[kleronomos]

I'm more aware of what is written than you seem to be.

1 Thessalonians 4 says that they went up in a rapture event and were changed. This is a given. It can't be ignored, and it make no sense to imagine them going up after Jesus steps foot on Earth for the Millennial Reign.

OK, I thought you were talking PRE TRIB. I'm Sorry. Yes, the alive and remaining are changed when Christ returns and are gathered to Him to rule and reign for the Millennium.

 

[kleronomos]

What I gave you is known as "common knowledge". Are you lacking somewhat in that area?

Do you not believe that the 3rd heaven (where God the Father resides) is where souls of believers go when they die? Paul made the point about being absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. I thought every believer was aware of this.

2 Cor 5-
8 We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.
9 So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it.

Luke 16 is about Torments and where the souls of the unsaved go.

You mean the 'common knowledge' that will cause the FALLING AWAY, giving Satan the ability to deceive WHOLE world, whereby time had to be shortened or else NO FLESH would be saved?

YES, that is the COMMON KNOWLEDGE I have a problem with.


HENCE THE REQUEST FOR SCRIPTURE and if you possibly could do it in a more CHRISTIAN way, it would be really appreciated. If you have all this knowledge you claim to have, YOU CERTAINLY SHOULD be walking a lot more CHRIST like than you are. Just saying your attitude doesn't come across much different from that of a heathen quite often, with all the little unnecessary jabs and stabs along the way. Doesn't reflect well on the Lord.

So your "I THOUGHT EVERY BELIEVER..." is a part of the problem. MANY WILL BE DECEIVED. That means if YOU believe like EVERYONE ELSE, you are in trouble. Any seeing or hearing that?

SO AGAIN, PLEASE GIVE ME CHAPTER AND VERSE, if indeed it does exist and it isn't just more DOCTRINES OF MAN put forth as GODS TRUTH. If not, how about just admitting it without trying to make ME the problem?

 

[John146]

Sorry, but you didn't make that clear. I need full context in order to understand questions.

Many were raised from the graves at Jesus' crucifixion, and Jesus and His disciples also raised a number of people during His earthly ministry.

So, what people are you referring to?

Matthew 27:
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

 

[kleronomos]

Paradise is the same place as Abraham's bosom. That's where the thief next to Jesus went when he died. But after the resurrection, Jesus took ALL OT saints to heaven.

FINALLY. Another resurrection is acknowledged.

FOR JESUS TO HAVE TAKEN ALL THE OT SAINTS TO HEAVEN,

THEY HAD TO BE RESURRECTED out from the dead.

And what are we told about how the dead are raised up? and with what body are we told they rise up in?

WE know the body THEY SOWED WAS NOT the body they were raised up in, but a bare grain, OF THAT BODY that was sown was maybe of wheat, or of some other grain

But we know God gave them bodies as it pleased Him, and every one of them had a body.

We know their bodies may have been sown in corruption, but they were raised in incorruption

And they were sown in dishonour but raised in glory sown in weakness and raised in power

We know they had a natural body like we have now and we know they were raised up in their spiritual one. We know there are two bodies. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

SO WE KNOW FOR SURE THAT no one is coming back 'without a body' to retrieve some dust of the earth.

And we can be POSITIVE that GOD WOULDN'T EVER LET THAT HAPPEN BECAUSE GOD HIMSELF REPENTED OF PUTTING MAN IN AN EARTH FLESH BODY.




All that is RAISED UP when Christ returns are THE DEAD. The SPIRITUALLY dead. You know


Luke 9:57 And it came to pass, that, as they went in the way, a certain man said unto him, Lord, I will follow thee whithersoever thou goest.

Luke 9:58 And Jesus said unto him, Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.

Luke 9:59 And he said unto another, Follow me. But he said, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.

Luke 9:60 Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.

Luke 9:61 And another also said, Lord, I will follow thee; but let me first go bid them farewell, which are at home at my house.

Luke 9:62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

THAT WOULD BE LIKE DYING, EVEN THOUGH YOU HAD ALREADY DIED AND ROSE UP A NEW CREATURE HAVING BEEN BORN AGAIN, BORN FROM ABOVE, AND BEING AMONGST THE DEAD, AFTER HAVING RECEIVED THE GIFT OF SALVATION (YET SOMEHOW NOT BEEN SAVED), BEING COUNTED AMONST THE DEAD, INSTEAD OF AMONGST THOSE FOLLOWING HIM FROM HEAVEN, ABLE TO RISE WITH THE DEAD AT HIS RETURN, INSTEAD OF NEVER DYING

TALK about looking back or falling back or drawing back.

Hebrews 10:36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

Hebrews 10:37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.

Hebrews 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

Hebrews 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

 

[tourist]

...

 

[FreeGrace2]

You mean the 'common knowledge' that will cause the FALLING AWAY, giving Satan the ability to deceive WHOLE world, whereby time had to be shortened or else NO FLESH would be saved?

YES, that is the COMMON KNOWLEDGE I have a problem with.


HENCE THE REQUEST FOR SCRIPTURE and if you possibly could do it in a more CHRISTIAN way, it would be really appreciated. If you have all this knowledge you claim to have, YOU CERTAINLY SHOULD be walking a lot more CHRIST like than you are. Just saying your attitude doesn't come across much different from that of a heathen quite often, with all the little unnecessary jabs and stabs along the way. Doesn't reflect well on the Lord.

So your "I THOUGHT EVERY BELIEVER..." is a part of the problem. MANY WILL BE DECEIVED. That means if YOU believe like EVERYONE ELSE, you are in trouble. Any seeing or hearing that?

SO AGAIN, PLEASE GIVE ME CHAPTER AND VERSE, if indeed it does exist and it isn't just more DOCTRINES OF MAN put forth as GODS TRUTH. If not, how about just admitting it without trying to make ME the problem?

I gave you verses. It's up to you to believe them or not.