Research: Majority of Americans Believe Works Are the Key to Salvation
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I agree Jesus is my rest no need physical sabbath
I agree our work not save us we save by faith
I think what the different between us is
The way we interpreted Matt 24:13
To me endure to the end mean till we die to you mean till second coming
Look every of us has our opinion, all we can do is pray let Holy Spirit talk to us what the next step
As long as no hatred between us
I agree our work not save us we save by faith
I think what the different between us is
The way we interpreted Matt 24:13
To me endure to the end mean till we die to you mean till second coming
Look every of us has our opinion, all we can do is pray let Holy Spirit talk to us what the next step
As long as no hatred between us
Indeed, Scripture consistently says that Jesus comes "as a thief" for us in the rapture. BUT NOT IN THE NIGHT! Why? Because Christians are not in darkness and do not see the awful "night" of the tribulation as is confirmed to us by Jesus Himself in Revelation 3:10.
It is ONLY AND ALWAYS the tribulation that comes "as a thief in the night".
It is ONLY AND ALWAYS the tribulation that comes "as a thief in the night".
Because salvation is a gift from God, not a reward we earn…
Titus 3:5 NASB
[5] He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
Romans 6:23 NASB
[23] For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Yes, rescue dogs make great pets, we have taken in a couple of them ourselves.
Titus 3:5 NASB
[5] He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
Romans 6:23 NASB
[23] For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Yes, rescue dogs make great pets, we have taken in a couple of them ourselves.
Magenta said:
We rest from works to obtain salvation. Is that really difficult to understand? Do you really not
understand that one is saved by grace, through faith, and not by works, that none can boast?
So, that's what you call "erroneous platitudes" huh. Magenta was quoting verses (Eph 2:8,9). Did you not realize that?
And then she provides beautifully artistic quotes of Scripture that says what she believes. Yet, you merely call them "erroneous platitudes".
You ought to be ashamed of yourself. But, instead, what's the difference between that and your flat out rejection of Jesus' very clear words about who shall never perish?
We rest from works to obtain salvation. Is that really difficult to understand? Do you really not
understand that one is saved by grace, through faith, and not by works, that none can boast?
So, that's what you call "erroneous platitudes" huh. Magenta was quoting verses (Eph 2:8,9). Did you not realize that?
And then she provides beautifully artistic quotes of Scripture that says what she believes. Yet, you merely call them "erroneous platitudes".
You ought to be ashamed of yourself. But, instead, what's the difference between that and your flat out rejection of Jesus' very clear words about who shall never perish?
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From https://www.gotquestions.org/seventy-weeks.html
The “seventy weeks” prophecy is one of the most significant and detailed Messianic prophecies of the Old Testament. It is found in Daniel 9. The chapter begins with Daniel praying for Israel, acknowledging the nation’s sins against God and asking for God’s mercy. As Daniel prayed, the angel Gabriel appeared to him and gave him a vision of Israel’s future.
The Divisions of the 70 Weeks
In verse 24, Gabriel says, “Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city.” Almost all commentators agree that the seventy “sevens” should be understood as seventy “weeks” of years, in other words, a period of 490 years. These verses provide a sort of “clock” that gives an idea of when the Messiah would come and some of the events that would accompany His appearance.
The Purpose of the 70 Weeks
The prophecy contains a statement concerning God’s six-fold purpose in bringing these events to pass. Verse 24 says this purpose is 1) “to finish transgression,” 2) “to put an end to sin,” 3) “to atone for wickedness,” 4) “to bring in everlasting righteousness,” 5) “to seal up vision and prophecy,” and 6) “to anoint the most holy.”
The Fulfillment of the 70 Weeks
Gabriel said the prophetic clock would start at the time that a decree was issued to rebuild Jerusalem. From the date of that decree to the time of the Messiah would be 483 years. We know from history that the command to “restore and rebuild Jerusalem” was given by King Artaxerxes of Persia c. 444 B.C. (see Nehemiah 2:1-8).
The Final Week of the 70 Weeks
Of the 70 “sevens,” 69 have been fulfilled in history. This leaves one more “seven” yet to be fulfilled. Most scholars believe that we are now living in a huge gap between the 69th week and the 70th week. The prophetic clock has been paused, as it were. The final “seven” of Daniel is what we usually call the tribulation period.
Plenty of verses to consider. You can do your own study. There was much more on the website.
What do you believe about what is called the Tribulation, or Jacob's Trouble?
The “seventy weeks” prophecy is one of the most significant and detailed Messianic prophecies of the Old Testament. It is found in Daniel 9. The chapter begins with Daniel praying for Israel, acknowledging the nation’s sins against God and asking for God’s mercy. As Daniel prayed, the angel Gabriel appeared to him and gave him a vision of Israel’s future.
The Divisions of the 70 Weeks
In verse 24, Gabriel says, “Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city.” Almost all commentators agree that the seventy “sevens” should be understood as seventy “weeks” of years, in other words, a period of 490 years. These verses provide a sort of “clock” that gives an idea of when the Messiah would come and some of the events that would accompany His appearance.
The Purpose of the 70 Weeks
The prophecy contains a statement concerning God’s six-fold purpose in bringing these events to pass. Verse 24 says this purpose is 1) “to finish transgression,” 2) “to put an end to sin,” 3) “to atone for wickedness,” 4) “to bring in everlasting righteousness,” 5) “to seal up vision and prophecy,” and 6) “to anoint the most holy.”
The Fulfillment of the 70 Weeks
Gabriel said the prophetic clock would start at the time that a decree was issued to rebuild Jerusalem. From the date of that decree to the time of the Messiah would be 483 years. We know from history that the command to “restore and rebuild Jerusalem” was given by King Artaxerxes of Persia c. 444 B.C. (see Nehemiah 2:1-8).
The Final Week of the 70 Weeks
Of the 70 “sevens,” 69 have been fulfilled in history. This leaves one more “seven” yet to be fulfilled. Most scholars believe that we are now living in a huge gap between the 69th week and the 70th week. The prophetic clock has been paused, as it were. The final “seven” of Daniel is what we usually call the tribulation period.
Plenty of verses to consider. You can do your own study. There was much more on the website.
What do you believe about what is called the Tribulation, or Jacob's Trouble?
But you also claim lifestyle is what keeps us saved, yet without any verses to support your claim.
Of course. The way you interpret Matt 24:13 means Jesus didn't mean what He said in John 10:28.
No, the context is about a 7 year period. So v.13 applies ONLY to that short time period. Yes, the Second Advent occurs at the end of the Tribulation, but that isn't my point. "the end" refers to the end of the Tribulation for those living in it.
I'm not about opinions, and I call out those who make claims without any verses that say what they claim.
I AM about clearly stated verses that can't be misunderstood. Which you keep doing.
In John 10:28 Jesus said He gives eternal life, and the recipients shall never perish.
So, the only remaining question is WHEN does Jesus give eternal life.
His answer is in John 5:24. WHEN a person becomes a believer, they possess eternal life.
So Jesus' statement in 10:28 applies from the MOMENT that one believes. They are eternally secure.
But someone has poisoned your mind with the unbiblical idea that salvation can be lost.
Because of what Jesus said in John 10:28, Matt 24:13 CANNOT mean what you think it means. Impossible.
As long as no hatred between us[/QUOTE]
Of course. The way you interpret Matt 24:13 means Jesus didn't mean what He said in John 10:28.
No, the context is about a 7 year period. So v.13 applies ONLY to that short time period. Yes, the Second Advent occurs at the end of the Tribulation, but that isn't my point. "the end" refers to the end of the Tribulation for those living in it.
I'm not about opinions, and I call out those who make claims without any verses that say what they claim.
I AM about clearly stated verses that can't be misunderstood. Which you keep doing.
In John 10:28 Jesus said He gives eternal life, and the recipients shall never perish.
So, the only remaining question is WHEN does Jesus give eternal life.
His answer is in John 5:24. WHEN a person becomes a believer, they possess eternal life.
So Jesus' statement in 10:28 applies from the MOMENT that one believes. They are eternally secure.
But someone has poisoned your mind with the unbiblical idea that salvation can be lost.
Because of what Jesus said in John 10:28, Matt 24:13 CANNOT mean what you think it means. Impossible.
As long as no hatred between us[/QUOTE]
The inconsistency with you! Even a blind man can see Jesus used this parable to teach us if God forgives us, we ought to forgive others - but when someone finally points out the Servant was totally forgiven but had that forgiveness revoked...all of a sudden "parables don't teach doctrine", right?
Oh, so the Christian who falls away and becomes an IMPENITENT serial killing madman INCAPABLE of repentance still goes to heaven, but will wear an empty crown - what asinine, satanic confusion this is.
Let's employ our God-given powers of deduction to see if your interpretation lines up with Scripture, which says: "...the latter end of them is worse with them than the beginning".
1. At the beginning of their lives, what did they face? Suffering the Lake of Fire.
2. Then, they escaped the pollutions of this world as redeemed saints to face what? Eternal Redemption
3. Finally, after becoming entangled therein again, if what they face at the latter end of them is WORSE than the beginning, what must they now be facing? WORSE suffering in the Lake of Fire!
This "empty crown" doctrine of yours simply doesn't stand the test of Biblical scrutiny.
Another ridiculously asinine conclusion because you refuse to compare "line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little". I've shown you that David in Psalms 51 equates being a "cast away" with "forfeiture of God's Holy Spirit" and Paul taught in no uncertain terms "if any man hath not the Spirit of God, he is none of His".
This is why Paul feared becoming a "cast away" - because those who are "cast away" no longer belong to Christ, are no longer "heirs according to the promise" (Galatians 3:29 KJV), and lose their eternal reward which is salvation in Christ Jesus.
Painful discipline? Good gravy, man, do you not understand Gospel 101 which teaches Christ's substitutionary death which He did not deserve allows us to escape the punitive death that we very much deserve, and if Christ's sacrifice ceases to be imputed to us for our sins, we must pay for them ourselves? It doesn't get any more elementary than this, people.
What He did not mean is that salvation is unconditional, since He Himself taught "if you continue in My Word, (then) ye are My disciples indeed". He meant those who choose to be kept found will never be lost.
See what I did there? I showed you that "if" and "then" are components of a concept known as CONDITION.
Yes, I'd think what you teach is "clear doctrine" too if I only accepted half the Bible for what it teaches. Like saying the Unmerciful Servant is a parable and therefore cannot be allowed to impact the issue of salvation...yep, keep making it up as y'all go.
It is your narrow view which refuses to allow other texts of Scripture to qualify Jesus' promises as conditional.
Maybe you should put the Bible down and come back after you've mastered how "if" and "then" form the concept of "condition" so that you can finally understand what the Bible is saying.
Oh, so the Christian who falls away and becomes an IMPENITENT serial killing madman INCAPABLE of repentance still goes to heaven, but will wear an empty crown - what asinine, satanic confusion this is.
Let's employ our God-given powers of deduction to see if your interpretation lines up with Scripture, which says: "...the latter end of them is worse with them than the beginning".
1. At the beginning of their lives, what did they face? Suffering the Lake of Fire.
2. Then, they escaped the pollutions of this world as redeemed saints to face what? Eternal Redemption
3. Finally, after becoming entangled therein again, if what they face at the latter end of them is WORSE than the beginning, what must they now be facing? WORSE suffering in the Lake of Fire!
This "empty crown" doctrine of yours simply doesn't stand the test of Biblical scrutiny.
Another ridiculously asinine conclusion because you refuse to compare "line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little". I've shown you that David in Psalms 51 equates being a "cast away" with "forfeiture of God's Holy Spirit" and Paul taught in no uncertain terms "if any man hath not the Spirit of God, he is none of His".
This is why Paul feared becoming a "cast away" - because those who are "cast away" no longer belong to Christ, are no longer "heirs according to the promise" (Galatians 3:29 KJV), and lose their eternal reward which is salvation in Christ Jesus.
Painful discipline? Good gravy, man, do you not understand Gospel 101 which teaches Christ's substitutionary death which He did not deserve allows us to escape the punitive death that we very much deserve, and if Christ's sacrifice ceases to be imputed to us for our sins, we must pay for them ourselves? It doesn't get any more elementary than this, people.
What He did not mean is that salvation is unconditional, since He Himself taught "if you continue in My Word, (then) ye are My disciples indeed". He meant those who choose to be kept found will never be lost.
See what I did there? I showed you that "if" and "then" are components of a concept known as CONDITION.
Yes, I'd think what you teach is "clear doctrine" too if I only accepted half the Bible for what it teaches. Like saying the Unmerciful Servant is a parable and therefore cannot be allowed to impact the issue of salvation...yep, keep making it up as y'all go.
It is your narrow view which refuses to allow other texts of Scripture to qualify Jesus' promises as conditional.
Maybe you should put the Bible down and come back after you've mastered how "if" and "then" form the concept of "condition" so that you can finally understand what the Bible is saying.
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I never said these weren't Scriptural, I said the conclusion you draw from them isn't Scriptural because it excludes the other texts of Scripture which make the promises contained therein conditional.
Since Jesus Himself said, "IF ye continue in My word, THEN ye are My disciples indeed", the promises contained in these two verses are conditional on whether we continue in His word or not.
Question: when a Universalist appeals to "...not for ours only, but for the sins of the whole world" to support his asinine doctrine, wouldn't the first thing you do is show him other verses which qualify 1 John 2:2 where we're told we must "believe" if we are to receive? Now, what if he said, "Oh no, you must take 1 John 2:2 apart and prove me wrong!!!" You'd think he was a unreasonable fool.
Now, go look in the mirror.
Yep, you sound exactly like that Universalist would sound, don't you?
Since Jesus Himself said, "IF ye continue in My word, THEN ye are My disciples indeed", the promises contained in these two verses are conditional on whether we continue in His word or not.
Question: when a Universalist appeals to "...not for ours only, but for the sins of the whole world" to support his asinine doctrine, wouldn't the first thing you do is show him other verses which qualify 1 John 2:2 where we're told we must "believe" if we are to receive? Now, what if he said, "Oh no, you must take 1 John 2:2 apart and prove me wrong!!!" You'd think he was a unreasonable fool.
Now, go look in the mirror.
Yep, you sound exactly like that Universalist would sound, don't you?
Hmm
You don't understand the concept of faith
Yes save by faith but faith change life style into what Jesus say in
Matt 25
34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
You don't understand the concept of faith
Yes save by faith but faith change life style into what Jesus say in
Matt 25
34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
Shouldn't we all have a problem with how the church is perceived? False pulpit prophets have taught for so long that "the law was nailed to the Cross" that now the youth in the streets have zero regard for any moral restraint whatsoever. The have no respect for law and order or for those who enforce it.
You're criticism only adds to the problem.
You're criticism only adds to the problem.
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FreeGrace2 said:
It's (the Unmerciful Servant) a parable. They weren't used to teach doctrine.
Sure. Some parables are easy to see, but no one should build doctrines on parables, which weren't meant to be understood.
I know that you Arminians are just so offended by the horrible sins of others. Do you have any grip on how many sins Jesus Christ died on the cross for? Your comments suggest that you do not.
Satan deceives the whole world. The deception is yours. Jesus taught that those He gives eternal life to shall never perish. Yet, you reject His teaching. So don't preach to me.
In fact, those who won't be rewarded will have NO crown, not an "empty" one.
Peter used "latter end" to refer to the believer's life after he "returns to a life of sin". iow, he will have a miserable life until the day he dies.
Since I never ever said anything about this "empty crown" nonsense you've brought up, it is clear you don't have any scrutiny.
It is you who fails to read line upon line, and precept upon precept. You don't believe what Jesus said in John 10:28. You claim to be a Christian but you REJECT what the Savior taught. You are hypocritical.
You have no idea what Paul wrote.
OK, now find verses that show any condition for recipients of eternal life to obey in order to never perish.
This sentence shows that you can't deny what Jesus taught in John 10:28, but you continue to believe that there are MORE verses that teach the opposite. You call me "inconsistent" but your ideas are even worse than just being inconsistent. Your ideas lead to the Bible being CONTRADICTED. But your view is too biased to even realize that.
The unmerciful servant CAN'T be about salvation, since Jesus described him as a "servant".
Why would Jesus describe any unbeliever as a servant? He wouldn't. But you just can't see it, huh.
What Jesus said in John 10:28 needs no "other verses" to interpret it. What a nonsense idea.
Jesus was clear. But you just can't stand it, so you have to force other verses to neutralize what He said in John 10:28. In essence, that is just trying to pervert the Word. Or twisting it to make it out to say what you want it to say.
Fact: you have NO verses that plainly say that salvation can be lost.
I, otoh, have verses that plainly say that believers shall never perish.
Maybe you should get on your knees and ask God to pry open those superglued eyelids shut so YOU can finally see the truth.
Jesus gives eternal life to people WHEN they become believers. John 5:24. Or, prove from that verse that Jesus said/meant something else.
Jesus said recipients of eternal life shall never perish. John 10:28. Or, prove from that verse that Jesus said/meant something else.
your turn
It's (the Unmerciful Servant) a parable. They weren't used to teach doctrine.
Sure. Some parables are easy to see, but no one should build doctrines on parables, which weren't meant to be understood.
I know that you Arminians are just so offended by the horrible sins of others. Do you have any grip on how many sins Jesus Christ died on the cross for? Your comments suggest that you do not.
Satan deceives the whole world. The deception is yours. Jesus taught that those He gives eternal life to shall never perish. Yet, you reject His teaching. So don't preach to me.
In fact, those who won't be rewarded will have NO crown, not an "empty" one.
Peter used "latter end" to refer to the believer's life after he "returns to a life of sin". iow, he will have a miserable life until the day he dies.
Since I never ever said anything about this "empty crown" nonsense you've brought up, it is clear you don't have any scrutiny.
It is you who fails to read line upon line, and precept upon precept. You don't believe what Jesus said in John 10:28. You claim to be a Christian but you REJECT what the Savior taught. You are hypocritical.
You have no idea what Paul wrote.
OK, now find verses that show any condition for recipients of eternal life to obey in order to never perish.
This sentence shows that you can't deny what Jesus taught in John 10:28, but you continue to believe that there are MORE verses that teach the opposite. You call me "inconsistent" but your ideas are even worse than just being inconsistent. Your ideas lead to the Bible being CONTRADICTED. But your view is too biased to even realize that.
The unmerciful servant CAN'T be about salvation, since Jesus described him as a "servant".
Why would Jesus describe any unbeliever as a servant? He wouldn't. But you just can't see it, huh.
What Jesus said in John 10:28 needs no "other verses" to interpret it. What a nonsense idea.
Jesus was clear. But you just can't stand it, so you have to force other verses to neutralize what He said in John 10:28. In essence, that is just trying to pervert the Word. Or twisting it to make it out to say what you want it to say.
Fact: you have NO verses that plainly say that salvation can be lost.
I, otoh, have verses that plainly say that believers shall never perish.
Maybe you should get on your knees and ask God to pry open those superglued eyelids shut so YOU can finally see the truth.
Jesus gives eternal life to people WHEN they become believers. John 5:24. Or, prove from that verse that Jesus said/meant something else.
Jesus said recipients of eternal life shall never perish. John 10:28. Or, prove from that verse that Jesus said/meant something else.
your turn
I am not agree, how Jesus promise physical salvation, all the Bible emphasized spiritual salvation
I know you try to make fit to your church doctrine OSAS than you have to make weir interpretation
Eternal salvation happen after you endure to the end of your live.
Read this verse, in gt some people that chose to endure not worship the beast killed, not physically save like what you say
Reve 13
15 The second beast was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that the image could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed.
I know you try to make fit to your church doctrine OSAS than you have to make weir interpretation
Eternal salvation happen after you endure to the end of your live.
Read this verse, in gt some people that chose to endure not worship the beast killed, not physically save like what you say
Reve 13
15 The second beast was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that the image could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed.
FreeGrace2 said:
Can you explain HOW both John 5:24 and 10:28 aren't Scriptural? What a stupid comment.
Your comment DID imply that the verses weren't Scriptural. And you reject the very clear sentences of Jesus.
Your default to "other verses" that are needed as "conditions" is bogus. This is just a very thinly veiled attempt to twist what Jesus said.
And you haven't even tried to explain either John 5;24 or 10:28. Why haven't you?
OK, prove that the conditional statement links to either 5:24 or 10:28. But you can't, because what Jesus said in John 8 isn't even about eternal security. You are reading your HUGE bias into what He said.
What He didn't say is "IF IF IF you continue in My word, you will stay saved", which is what you really believe.
Aren't you aware that the word "disciple" doesn't mean saved person? Apparently your "Bible study" hasn't taken you that far yet.
Consider this passage from John 6-
60 On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?”
61 Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, “Does this offend you?
62 Then what if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before!
63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit[e] and life.
64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.
65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”
66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.
Do you believe these disciples were all saved?
Do you believe Judas, one of the 12 DISCIPLES was saved?
The verse teaches that Jesus died for everyone. This verse doesn't need your so-called "qualifications" of other verses to teach that He died for all. And that's a DIFFERENT subject than how to be saved. So you are simply conflating different subjects.
Regarding eternal security, there aren't any verses that use plain and clear language that teach that salvation can be lost.
No one has ever quoted any verse that plainly tells us that salvation can be lost. Yes, there are quite a few verses that YOU and other Arminians think teach it, but the verses aren't crystal clear, like John 10:28 is.
I think you are trying to prove to the forum that you are delusional.
Doing a pretty bang up job of it, too.
Can you explain HOW both John 5:24 and 10:28 aren't Scriptural? What a stupid comment.
Your comment DID imply that the verses weren't Scriptural. And you reject the very clear sentences of Jesus.
Your default to "other verses" that are needed as "conditions" is bogus. This is just a very thinly veiled attempt to twist what Jesus said.
And you haven't even tried to explain either John 5;24 or 10:28. Why haven't you?
OK, prove that the conditional statement links to either 5:24 or 10:28. But you can't, because what Jesus said in John 8 isn't even about eternal security. You are reading your HUGE bias into what He said.
What He didn't say is "IF IF IF you continue in My word, you will stay saved", which is what you really believe.
Aren't you aware that the word "disciple" doesn't mean saved person? Apparently your "Bible study" hasn't taken you that far yet.
Consider this passage from John 6-
60 On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?”
61 Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, “Does this offend you?
62 Then what if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before!
63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit[e] and life.
64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.
65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”
66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.
Do you believe these disciples were all saved?
Do you believe Judas, one of the 12 DISCIPLES was saved?
The verse teaches that Jesus died for everyone. This verse doesn't need your so-called "qualifications" of other verses to teach that He died for all. And that's a DIFFERENT subject than how to be saved. So you are simply conflating different subjects.
Regarding eternal security, there aren't any verses that use plain and clear language that teach that salvation can be lost.
No one has ever quoted any verse that plainly tells us that salvation can be lost. Yes, there are quite a few verses that YOU and other Arminians think teach it, but the verses aren't crystal clear, like John 10:28 is.
I think you are trying to prove to the forum that you are delusional.
Doing a pretty bang up job of it, too.
How can something that doesn't exist be divided? The 70 Weeks expired right on time, 490 years after 457 B.C., else they've have to rename it "70 Weeks plus 2,000+ years" prophecy.
You can read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation and you'll not find a single Numerically Specific Time Prophecy (I didn't say "Event Specific Time Prophecy" - I said "Numerically Specific Time Prophecy") in all of Scripture that has inserted within it a "gap" of any sort. Just to name a few:
You can read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation and you'll not find a single Numerically Specific Time Prophecy (I didn't say "Event Specific Time Prophecy" - I said "Numerically Specific Time Prophecy") in all of Scripture that has inserted within it a "gap" of any sort. Just to name a few:
- Noah preached 120 years, no gaps.
- Israel spent 400 years in bondage, no gaps.
- Israel's wandering lasted 40 years, no gaps.
- Elijah's famine lasted 3 1/2 years, no gaps.
- The Shunammite woman's son was born after 1 year, no gaps.
I do. But you don't understand the doctrine of GRACE.
This is erroneous. Our faith doesn't "change us". Every believer is commanded to grow up in their salvation. It isn't guaranteed, as you presume. It OUGHT TO change us. And that is the command from Scripture.
But many never grow up. They never learn the doctrines about being IN fellowship, how to obey the command to be filled with the Spirit, etc.
Did any of these things save anyone? No.
Did any of these things keep someone saved? No again.
This is erroneous. Our faith doesn't "change us". Every believer is commanded to grow up in their salvation. It isn't guaranteed, as you presume. It OUGHT TO change us. And that is the command from Scripture.
But many never grow up. They never learn the doctrines about being IN fellowship, how to obey the command to be filled with the Spirit, etc.
Did any of these things save anyone? No.
Did any of these things keep someone saved? No again.
FreeGrace2 said:
Of course. The way you interpret Matt 24:13 means Jesus didn't mean what He said in John 10:28.
Don't try to change the subject here. I'm not talking about physical salvation in John 10:28. And since you think Matt 24:13 is about how to stay saved by lifestyle endurance, it is IMPOSSIBLE to believe the clear and simple words of Jesus in John 10:28.
Jesus has REFUTED your beliefs.
No, I only have to believe the very words of Jesus. Those He gives eternal life shall never perish.
It is YOU who doesn't believe what Jesus said.
And this shows that YOU don't even believe John 5:24, where Jesus said believers possess eternal life.
You are blatantly rejecting 2 very clear verses that prove our salvation is secure from the moment of faith in Him.
Of course. The way you interpret Matt 24:13 means Jesus didn't mean what He said in John 10:28.
Don't try to change the subject here. I'm not talking about physical salvation in John 10:28. And since you think Matt 24:13 is about how to stay saved by lifestyle endurance, it is IMPOSSIBLE to believe the clear and simple words of Jesus in John 10:28.
Jesus has REFUTED your beliefs.
No, I only have to believe the very words of Jesus. Those He gives eternal life shall never perish.
It is YOU who doesn't believe what Jesus said.
And this shows that YOU don't even believe John 5:24, where Jesus said believers possess eternal life.
You are blatantly rejecting 2 very clear verses that prove our salvation is secure from the moment of faith in Him.
Remember, ALL SCRIPTURE is inspired, not just the NT.
The Law of Moses was "added because of transgression until the Seed should come" which means it was added to the Ten Commandments because of transgression of the Ten Commandments until that added law was nailed to the Cross (the Ten Commandments go all the way back as Cain knew not to kill, Rachel knew not to steal, Joseph knew adultery was sin, etc.).
That's why you find NT writers constantly lifting up the Ten Commandments while condemning the Mosaic Law as nailed to the Cross, while the Ten Commandments "stand fast forever and ever".
The Law of Moses was "added because of transgression until the Seed should come" which means it was added to the Ten Commandments because of transgression of the Ten Commandments until that added law was nailed to the Cross (the Ten Commandments go all the way back as Cain knew not to kill, Rachel knew not to steal, Joseph knew adultery was sin, etc.).
That's why you find NT writers constantly lifting up the Ten Commandments while condemning the Mosaic Law as nailed to the Cross, while the Ten Commandments "stand fast forever and ever".