Free Will - A More Exhaustive Look
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but look at the prophets after isaiah. these were men already devoting themselves to God before God chooses to use them. the disciples are a bit different, but they were already believers looking for the coming Messiah. so i think it's more about those who God chose already had chosen God and made themselves available for God to use.
even shadrach, meshach, and abednego were firm followers of Yahweh and not prophets. they just lived their lives dedicated to God and we read how God used them for our own encouragement. clearly not everyone's eyes were closed. we have a lot of non prophet heroes from isaiah to Jesus.
But other than that, yes to your sentiments.
even shadrach, meshach, and abednego were firm followers of Yahweh and not prophets. they just lived their lives dedicated to God and we read how God used them for our own encouragement. clearly not everyone's eyes were closed. we have a lot of non prophet heroes from isaiah to Jesus.
But other than that, yes to your sentiments.
The mind of a person plans his way, But the LORD directs his steps.
Proverbs 16:9
https://biblehub.com/proverbs/16-9.htm
Matthew 6:10 Your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.
I think we confuse free choice with free will.
Proverbs 16:9
https://biblehub.com/proverbs/16-9.htm
Matthew 6:10 Your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.
I think we confuse free choice with free will.
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Prov 16:9 reminds me of the following verse:
James 4:13-17 NLT - "Look here, you who say, "Today or tomorrow we are going to a certain town and will stay there a year. We will do business there and make a profit." How do you know what your life will be like tomorrow? Your life is like the morning fog--it's here a little while, then it's gone. What you ought to say is, "If the Lord wants us to, we will live and do this or that." Otherwise you are boasting about your own plans, and all such boasting is evil. Remember, it is sin to know what you ought to do and then not do it."
I appreciate your post. Have you spent much time pondering the difference between free choice and free will? Even better, have you written a paper or completed a Bible study on the matter? I'm definitely interested.
James 4:13-17 NLT - "Look here, you who say, "Today or tomorrow we are going to a certain town and will stay there a year. We will do business there and make a profit." How do you know what your life will be like tomorrow? Your life is like the morning fog--it's here a little while, then it's gone. What you ought to say is, "If the Lord wants us to, we will live and do this or that." Otherwise you are boasting about your own plans, and all such boasting is evil. Remember, it is sin to know what you ought to do and then not do it."
I appreciate your post. Have you spent much time pondering the difference between free choice and free will? Even better, have you written a paper or completed a Bible study on the matter? I'm definitely interested.
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Typically, free will pertains to the human capacity to make decisions or perform actions independently of any prior event or state of the universe.
(https://www.britannica.com/topic/free-will )
However, in the context of our faith and God's sovereignty, and his informing us in the prior Proverbs verse about establishing our steps, those in faith know the world's definition of free will does not apply.
As also in my view do those passages telling us how God predestined,predetermined, according to his will and plans for us.
Free choice is a matter of being free to select, or exercise options of our own volition. However as we know God can have there plans.
Our will cannot be freely exercised outside of and beyond the capacity of sovereign God.
Which is why he tells us in that Proverbs verse that we plan our way,choose our way, but God's (will) sets our steps.
(https://www.britannica.com/topic/free-will )
However, in the context of our faith and God's sovereignty, and his informing us in the prior Proverbs verse about establishing our steps, those in faith know the world's definition of free will does not apply.
As also in my view do those passages telling us how God predestined,predetermined, according to his will and plans for us.
Free choice is a matter of being free to select, or exercise options of our own volition. However as we know God can have there plans.
Our will cannot be freely exercised outside of and beyond the capacity of sovereign God.
Which is why he tells us in that Proverbs verse that we plan our way,choose our way, but God's (will) sets our steps.
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Sounds like you are reading the same Bibles that I'm reading.
When a person has experienced True Transformation, they have no issues with the Biblical fact that God "sets our steps." Those who have NOT experienced Transformation and remain in a consistently sinful state, they are left to determine that God has not selected them . . . and that is simply unacceptable (to them). And I get it. Several decades ago I was told that I was not a Christian because of my plethora of behaviors. I was so angry that I kicked that person out of my life. How dare they suggest such a thing! But the facts were, that I hadn't even read the Old Testament . . . even in the messed up order that it is in. I wasn't a student of the Bible. Oh sure, I thought I was a "master" of certain Biblical principles such as Eternal Security. I mean, I could quote scripture and I could link one passage to another . . . but that didn't change the fact that I was an active alcoholic that cursed like a sailor, loved strip clubs, suffered from active porn addiction and "had" multiple women per week. I was PURE scum of the earth. But no one could convince me that I was not a Truly Saved Christian. Of course, I was! But I had to cringe each time that I thought about the Romans 12:2 Transformation. I had to rush past every passage that indicates that we are changed by the Spirit. Surely there had to be an explanation that would allow me to live as the Devil would have me, yet I could still call myself a True Christian. Aha . . . I found the answer!
Romans 8:38 NLT - "And I am convinced that nothing can ever separate us from God's love. Neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither our fears for today nor our worries about tomorrow--not even the powers of hell can separate us from God's love."
My former best friend and I believed that not even our wretchedness that made us look like the fake Christian Devils could keep us from and out of Heaven. Of course we were saved! Not even our own sin could separate us from the Love of God. And so . . . we kept on drinking and sexing in our various forms, and we did so with impunity. But boy oh boy did we ever hide our sin! We didn't want anyone to know what we were doing; particularly our wives and children . . . not to mention parents, siblings, co-workers and bosses . . . nor anyone at church. Pft . . . we were amazing Christians with so much knowledge, but we wanted no one to know the Truth about the things we were doing. We two men spent hundreds of thousands of dollars in our quests for "good times" and thrills that only money could buy. Yet . . . we counted ourselves as Worthy, Righteous, Holy, and Blameless . . . putting all of our active iniquities on the bloody back of Jesus Christ our Savior.
But when someone told me that I was not a Christian, I became angry and kicked that horrible person out of my life.
I was so absolutely, totally, and utterly corrupt. It amazes me that my Powerful, Almighty God would extend His Transforming Grace upon me . . . to change me beyond my own ability to do so. What God did to me to cause me to change, they were the worst years of my life. The Lord's Holy Discipline left me with no "choice" but to change. The painful and unlawful accusations that made me a public spectacle . . . these forced me into a certain mindset and lifestyle, all beyond my own sense of free will. I was left with no choice. I was forced to change. And I am so thankful, for I could not have changed if the Lord did not press Himself upon me to the unbelievable degree that He had.
When a person has experienced True Transformation, they have no issues with the Biblical fact that God "sets our steps." Those who have NOT experienced Transformation and remain in a consistently sinful state, they are left to determine that God has not selected them . . . and that is simply unacceptable (to them). And I get it. Several decades ago I was told that I was not a Christian because of my plethora of behaviors. I was so angry that I kicked that person out of my life. How dare they suggest such a thing! But the facts were, that I hadn't even read the Old Testament . . . even in the messed up order that it is in. I wasn't a student of the Bible. Oh sure, I thought I was a "master" of certain Biblical principles such as Eternal Security. I mean, I could quote scripture and I could link one passage to another . . . but that didn't change the fact that I was an active alcoholic that cursed like a sailor, loved strip clubs, suffered from active porn addiction and "had" multiple women per week. I was PURE scum of the earth. But no one could convince me that I was not a Truly Saved Christian. Of course, I was! But I had to cringe each time that I thought about the Romans 12:2 Transformation. I had to rush past every passage that indicates that we are changed by the Spirit. Surely there had to be an explanation that would allow me to live as the Devil would have me, yet I could still call myself a True Christian. Aha . . . I found the answer!
Romans 8:38 NLT - "And I am convinced that nothing can ever separate us from God's love. Neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither our fears for today nor our worries about tomorrow--not even the powers of hell can separate us from God's love."
My former best friend and I believed that not even our wretchedness that made us look like the fake Christian Devils could keep us from and out of Heaven. Of course we were saved! Not even our own sin could separate us from the Love of God. And so . . . we kept on drinking and sexing in our various forms, and we did so with impunity. But boy oh boy did we ever hide our sin! We didn't want anyone to know what we were doing; particularly our wives and children . . . not to mention parents, siblings, co-workers and bosses . . . nor anyone at church. Pft . . . we were amazing Christians with so much knowledge, but we wanted no one to know the Truth about the things we were doing. We two men spent hundreds of thousands of dollars in our quests for "good times" and thrills that only money could buy. Yet . . . we counted ourselves as Worthy, Righteous, Holy, and Blameless . . . putting all of our active iniquities on the bloody back of Jesus Christ our Savior.
But when someone told me that I was not a Christian, I became angry and kicked that horrible person out of my life.
I was so absolutely, totally, and utterly corrupt. It amazes me that my Powerful, Almighty God would extend His Transforming Grace upon me . . . to change me beyond my own ability to do so. What God did to me to cause me to change, they were the worst years of my life. The Lord's Holy Discipline left me with no "choice" but to change. The painful and unlawful accusations that made me a public spectacle . . . these forced me into a certain mindset and lifestyle, all beyond my own sense of free will. I was left with no choice. I was forced to change. And I am so thankful, for I could not have changed if the Lord did not press Himself upon me to the unbelievable degree that He had.
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Amazing testimony. I'm sure that you will help a lot of people who are now where you once were due to this post showing up in search engines when those who are hurting seek help.
grabs your hand = Happy dance!
p.s I'm the blond there.😋
grabs your hand = Happy dance!
p.s I'm the blond there.😋
You're the blonde? I'm not sure what that means. haha
I think you might consider you don't have to be perfect to be useful to God.
Everything you shared in your testimony is relatable to others out there. And they'll find it through keyword searches as they find a way to relate who they currently are to that question, is there something more? Is this who I am suppose to be? Why don't I feel different, act different, since I repented and asked God to save me? And more.
Sometimes we can feel like no one is as bad as us. Saved or not.
Your testimony relates to all of that. Maybe you made that journey for that very reason.
You planned your way. But God set your steps.
LOL The Snoopy and Woodstock happy dance gif. Woodstock is yellow, blonde.
Everything you shared in your testimony is relatable to others out there. And they'll find it through keyword searches as they find a way to relate who they currently are to that question, is there something more? Is this who I am suppose to be? Why don't I feel different, act different, since I repented and asked God to save me? And more.
Sometimes we can feel like no one is as bad as us. Saved or not.
Your testimony relates to all of that. Maybe you made that journey for that very reason.
You planned your way. But God set your steps.
LOL The Snoopy and Woodstock happy dance gif. Woodstock is yellow, blonde.
Actually, I believe that God uses all of us whether we are perfect or not. And of course, all people sin both before and after Purification. Purification does not depend upon whether or not we are ACTUALLY perfect, but upon Christ and how His Work presents us to His Father (and how He views us).
Thanks for your input in this thread. Whew . . . you're a major breath of fresh-air!
Thanks for your input in this thread. Whew . . . you're a major breath of fresh-air!
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As I have previously mentioned, the purpose of this thread is NOT to discuss my personal beliefs but rather to discuss the passages that seem to indicate that God is in control of all things, including the minds, thoughts, actions, and behaviors of not only people but animals (power over all of creation). That said, @Bluesproverb had shown us a passage yesterday that fell underneath my radar. That passage is Proverbs 16:9. Here it is again:
Proverbs 16:9 NLT – “We can make our plans, but the LORD determines our steps.”
What are we supposed to “make” of this statement? Is the NLT translation the problem? Hardly.
Proverbs 16:9 KJV – “A man’s heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.”
Even the Blessed Jews translate 16:9 this way (from their Tanakh):
“A man may plot out his course, but it is the Lord who directs his steps.”
This passage does, however, give us what seems to be an accurate description of what is happening within this concept of “free will,” and it is this concept that I adhere to. In my view, we have a limited set of choices that we are allowed to make, but ultimately, it will be the Lord who has placed a hedge around our lives so that we are corralled into specific activities (including our thoughts). Without question, we know that this is the case if we are under the Curse of the Lord, the Curse that stems back to Adam and Eve, for it is clear that those who exist under this Curse are held captive to do the will of the Devil (unless we continue to disregard the Lord’s Scripture).
2 Timothy 2:26 NKJV – “. . . and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.”
Until a person is exiled from the captivity of Satan, no one is “free.” But even in this evil captivity of Satan, very few would ever admit that the Devil controls them, for essentially all of us feel that we are/were free to make our own choices. But even Gary Ridgeway himself never admitted that he was held captive to do the will of Satan, for he claimed that he was doing the police a favor by murdering prostitutes . . . and “cleaning up the streets.”
When I was an active, highly functioning alcoholic, I would “choose” nearly every day to stop drinking. Each day after work, I would tell myself, “You are NOT going to stop at the gas station to buy more beer. You are NOT going to turn into that parking lot!” Sure enough, I would watch my hands turn that steering wheel into the parking lot. Ninety seconds later, I’m at the counter making my purchase of cheap, high-octane beer. I couldn’t stop. I could [not] stop. I didn’t stop drinking until I had an ankle devise bolted to my leg. I had the ignition-controlled breathalyzer in my car, but even then, I continued to drink. December 7th, 2011, was the day the ankle device was installed, and it was the last day I drank alcohol. I am so thankful for being forced to stop drinking! I was not in control of myself; instead, I was held captive to do Satan’s will. And as a raging alcoholic, this lifestyle led me into all kinds of rampant sex sin, as alcohol opened up my inhibitions and allowed me to do and say what was necessary to achieve my next sexual conquest.
As I said, I have planned, and planned, and planned my ways, but I was never in control over my life. I have always had this awareness that I was not in control over my life . . . I have never been. My plans have always included being free of addictions; free to do whatever I desired in this life. My plans included being a part of my set of families. But as hard as I would try to be good and show that I was worthy, I was not included in “family” but instead rejected. I have always planned how I would “get along” with my new co-workers at the next job, yet they would also turn against me. I would do and say whatever I had to do or say to try to get people to be “on my side,” but to no avail, my efforts (even buying people things) would not work. My plans would always fail, and this is to the degree of “father against son, brother against brother . . . friend against friend.”
Luke 12:51-53 NLT – “Do you think I have come to bring peace to the earth? No, I have come to divide people against each other! From now on families will be split apart, three in favor of me, and two against--or two in favor and three against. ‘Father will be divided against son and son against father; mother against daughter and daughter against mother; and mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law.”
My parents didn’t sell me into slavery (as the case with Joseph), but worse, they paid another man to take me when I was just a little boy . . . yet my heart was filled with an incredible love for everyone in my family (I was so confused by what was happening to me and my life). Unlike Joseph, who went in exchange for money, I was so detested by my parents and adult family that a family friend accepted me and was paid to take me as though unwanted trash (no family member would step up to save me). I do not write these things seeking a pity party but to demonstrate that I have never been in control of my life. God has been directing my steps . . . I am so fortunate!
The good news? This is the Plan of God in full action. For it is the Lord who Loves the poor, the oppressed, the rejected, and the sad. It is the meek who shall inherit the earth, and God shows us this concept throughout Scripture, such as the Lord choosing Israel NOT because they were the strongest and largest, but because He loved them though they were the smallest and the weakest.
Deuteronomy 7:7-8 NLT - “The LORD did not set his heart on you and choose you because you were more numerous than other nations, for you were the smallest of all nations! Rather, it was simply that the LORD loves you, and he was keeping the oath he had sworn to your ancestors. That is why the LORD rescued you with such a strong hand from your slavery and from the oppressive hand of Pharaoh, king of Egypt.”
This concept is precisely how the Lord shows His Omniscient Power . . . and Glory. For, He chooses and uses the weak things of this world to empower and thus demonstrate [His] Power.
1 Corinthians 1:27 NLT – “Instead, God chose things the world considers foolish in order to shame those who think they are wise. And he chose things that are powerless to shame those who are powerful.”
If our lives do not reflect what we see in the Bible (the life of one Loved by God), then we should be concerned. We ought to be worried if we are living carefree, wanton lives. For example, we ought to be worried if we are rude, crude, and overbearing at Christian forums. If our lives are hypocritical and out of control, doing the things that the Devil would have us do, then we ought to be worried.
Lastly, if we possess True “free will,” why do virtually all “Christians” desperately pray to the Lord that He would take over and relieve them of their sinful ways? And since virtually all “Christians” pray this type of prayer, the same prayers I have shown from king David, why would we reject the idea that God might control us even though we ask this of Him? Yet incredibly, we ask for this very thing . . . the Omniscient control of God in our lives. We ask of these things, yet turn right around and destroy others for showing that this concept is most prevalent within the Lord’s Holy Word.
Psalm 141:3 NLT – “Take control of what I say, O LORD, and guard my lips.”
Proverbs 16:9 NLT – “We can make our plans, but the LORD determines our steps.”
What are we supposed to “make” of this statement? Is the NLT translation the problem? Hardly.
Proverbs 16:9 KJV – “A man’s heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.”
Even the Blessed Jews translate 16:9 this way (from their Tanakh):
“A man may plot out his course, but it is the Lord who directs his steps.”
This passage does, however, give us what seems to be an accurate description of what is happening within this concept of “free will,” and it is this concept that I adhere to. In my view, we have a limited set of choices that we are allowed to make, but ultimately, it will be the Lord who has placed a hedge around our lives so that we are corralled into specific activities (including our thoughts). Without question, we know that this is the case if we are under the Curse of the Lord, the Curse that stems back to Adam and Eve, for it is clear that those who exist under this Curse are held captive to do the will of the Devil (unless we continue to disregard the Lord’s Scripture).
2 Timothy 2:26 NKJV – “. . . and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.”
Until a person is exiled from the captivity of Satan, no one is “free.” But even in this evil captivity of Satan, very few would ever admit that the Devil controls them, for essentially all of us feel that we are/were free to make our own choices. But even Gary Ridgeway himself never admitted that he was held captive to do the will of Satan, for he claimed that he was doing the police a favor by murdering prostitutes . . . and “cleaning up the streets.”
When I was an active, highly functioning alcoholic, I would “choose” nearly every day to stop drinking. Each day after work, I would tell myself, “You are NOT going to stop at the gas station to buy more beer. You are NOT going to turn into that parking lot!” Sure enough, I would watch my hands turn that steering wheel into the parking lot. Ninety seconds later, I’m at the counter making my purchase of cheap, high-octane beer. I couldn’t stop. I could [not] stop. I didn’t stop drinking until I had an ankle devise bolted to my leg. I had the ignition-controlled breathalyzer in my car, but even then, I continued to drink. December 7th, 2011, was the day the ankle device was installed, and it was the last day I drank alcohol. I am so thankful for being forced to stop drinking! I was not in control of myself; instead, I was held captive to do Satan’s will. And as a raging alcoholic, this lifestyle led me into all kinds of rampant sex sin, as alcohol opened up my inhibitions and allowed me to do and say what was necessary to achieve my next sexual conquest.
As I said, I have planned, and planned, and planned my ways, but I was never in control over my life. I have always had this awareness that I was not in control over my life . . . I have never been. My plans have always included being free of addictions; free to do whatever I desired in this life. My plans included being a part of my set of families. But as hard as I would try to be good and show that I was worthy, I was not included in “family” but instead rejected. I have always planned how I would “get along” with my new co-workers at the next job, yet they would also turn against me. I would do and say whatever I had to do or say to try to get people to be “on my side,” but to no avail, my efforts (even buying people things) would not work. My plans would always fail, and this is to the degree of “father against son, brother against brother . . . friend against friend.”
Luke 12:51-53 NLT – “Do you think I have come to bring peace to the earth? No, I have come to divide people against each other! From now on families will be split apart, three in favor of me, and two against--or two in favor and three against. ‘Father will be divided against son and son against father; mother against daughter and daughter against mother; and mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law.”
My parents didn’t sell me into slavery (as the case with Joseph), but worse, they paid another man to take me when I was just a little boy . . . yet my heart was filled with an incredible love for everyone in my family (I was so confused by what was happening to me and my life). Unlike Joseph, who went in exchange for money, I was so detested by my parents and adult family that a family friend accepted me and was paid to take me as though unwanted trash (no family member would step up to save me). I do not write these things seeking a pity party but to demonstrate that I have never been in control of my life. God has been directing my steps . . . I am so fortunate!
The good news? This is the Plan of God in full action. For it is the Lord who Loves the poor, the oppressed, the rejected, and the sad. It is the meek who shall inherit the earth, and God shows us this concept throughout Scripture, such as the Lord choosing Israel NOT because they were the strongest and largest, but because He loved them though they were the smallest and the weakest.
Deuteronomy 7:7-8 NLT - “The LORD did not set his heart on you and choose you because you were more numerous than other nations, for you were the smallest of all nations! Rather, it was simply that the LORD loves you, and he was keeping the oath he had sworn to your ancestors. That is why the LORD rescued you with such a strong hand from your slavery and from the oppressive hand of Pharaoh, king of Egypt.”
This concept is precisely how the Lord shows His Omniscient Power . . . and Glory. For, He chooses and uses the weak things of this world to empower and thus demonstrate [His] Power.
1 Corinthians 1:27 NLT – “Instead, God chose things the world considers foolish in order to shame those who think they are wise. And he chose things that are powerless to shame those who are powerful.”
If our lives do not reflect what we see in the Bible (the life of one Loved by God), then we should be concerned. We ought to be worried if we are living carefree, wanton lives. For example, we ought to be worried if we are rude, crude, and overbearing at Christian forums. If our lives are hypocritical and out of control, doing the things that the Devil would have us do, then we ought to be worried.
Lastly, if we possess True “free will,” why do virtually all “Christians” desperately pray to the Lord that He would take over and relieve them of their sinful ways? And since virtually all “Christians” pray this type of prayer, the same prayers I have shown from king David, why would we reject the idea that God might control us even though we ask this of Him? Yet incredibly, we ask for this very thing . . . the Omniscient control of God in our lives. We ask of these things, yet turn right around and destroy others for showing that this concept is most prevalent within the Lord’s Holy Word.
Psalm 141:3 NLT – “Take control of what I say, O LORD, and guard my lips.”
It is certainly encouraging to read that you see things in a similar fashion, however, I am then perplexed by your following statement from yesterday. You wrote:
"for that reason alone no one should be discussing this with you."
I don't know what's going on . . . but I guess that "it is what it is."
"for that reason alone no one should be discussing this with you."
I don't know what's going on . . . but I guess that "it is what it is."
The Bible seems clear that it isn't about who it willing and who is not. But rather, it is about who has been Enabled to follow Him. Who has been Enabled to "choose." The Bible seems clear that we are Enabled to make the right "choice." So this ought to lead any rational person to conclude that we are, in fact, Enabled to "choose." And when a person has been Enabled to see the Light, they will naturally gravitate toward the light just as any Living Seed.
1 Timothy 1:12-13 NKJV - 12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord who has enabled me, because He counted me faithful, putting [me] into the ministry, 13 although I was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and an insolent man; but I obtained mercy because I did [it] ignorantly in unbelief."
When Paul said that he was Enabled, this IS what it means to obtain Mercy. Hence, Exodus 33:19.
Exodus 33:19 KJV - "And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy."
The ultimate Grace and Mercy is to receive Circumcision of Heart, the act of Christ that separates a person from the Sinful Nature and the Divine Nature.
2 Peter 1:4 KJV - "Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust."
The Promise is the Promise of a Circumcised Heart. Notice the words Escape and Divine Nature.
This is the Mysterious, Eternal Plan of God that this thread is pointing to.
Come on folks . . . this is what the Bible is about! I beg of each of us to see these things!
1 Timothy 1:12-13 NKJV - 12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord who has enabled me, because He counted me faithful, putting [me] into the ministry, 13 although I was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and an insolent man; but I obtained mercy because I did [it] ignorantly in unbelief."
When Paul said that he was Enabled, this IS what it means to obtain Mercy. Hence, Exodus 33:19.
Exodus 33:19 KJV - "And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy."
The ultimate Grace and Mercy is to receive Circumcision of Heart, the act of Christ that separates a person from the Sinful Nature and the Divine Nature.
2 Peter 1:4 KJV - "Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust."
The Promise is the Promise of a Circumcised Heart. Notice the words Escape and Divine Nature.
This is the Mysterious, Eternal Plan of God that this thread is pointing to.
Come on folks . . . this is what the Bible is about! I beg of each of us to see these things!
it's because you were attempting to end the conversation before knowing we actually had similar views. i believe you thought i was against you. you then wanted to end the conversation. but i knew we were similar in thought. so i continued until you were made aware that our views were similar. me suggesting no one to continue discussion with you was based upon that if you felt they were disagreeing, you would shut them down. so why start something unless they are on the same page as you?