Age of Marriage

[apwall21]

My church has young adults below 15 who have been sexually active, and one of our young teens is now pregnant by one of our neighboring church's young men. It is the opinion of some of the men that the two should be married, and it is the opinion of some of the men that the two should not marry. Some in first reply have suggested adoption, and I know that some would even look past an abortion.

In the US, "legal" consent is normally no lower than 16. In Mexico I have heard it is 12.
Mary was probably 14-16 when she birthed Jesus.
Jesus says we cannot divorce.

I probably will have no say on this, but I want more help knowing how to talk about this.
Thoughts? Questions?

 

[JohnDB]

My church has young adults below 15 who have been sexually active, and one of our young teens is now pregnant by one of our neighboring church's young men. It is the opinion of some of the men that the two should be married, and it is the opinion of some of the men that the two should not marry. Some in first reply have suggested adoption, and I know that some would even look past an abortion.

In the US, "legal" consent is normally no lower than 16. In Mexico I have heard it is 12.
Mary was probably 14-16 when she birthed Jesus.
Jesus says we cannot divorce.

I probably will have no say on this, but I want more help knowing how to talk about this.
Thoughts? Questions?

Ok....I'm thinking that these are normal American kids....

As such...

You should not compound one mistake with another.
Mistake possibilities include:

Forcing the kids to marry
Forcing the girl to raise the child
Forcing the child to be put up for adoption
Forcing the girl to get an abortion.

Everyone, including the parents, have ideas as to what is most convenient for everyone...except nobody is making a plan for the baby or what happens next in the aftermath of a birth for all of the children involved.

It was for convenience that the boy and girl weren't supervised sufficiently to keep this from happening to begin with. I mean really...they aren't old enough for dating unsupervised in my world...

Then....both dating kids need some serious counseling. Sure they got hormones but they absolutely disregarded every warning out there and the morals of their community. There are some issues there needing attention. Especially with her....it WILL happen again if her emotional needs are not met.

What's being focused on is the obvious "problem" but not on the manner or reasons the parties involved made the choices they did. This is purely two sets of parents fault.
Not the kids who caused the baby....sure they own some blame but really? In today's culture? They don't know how to do much of anything else...which is why this happened.

 

[apwall21]

Ok....I'm thinking that these are normal American kids....

As such...

You should not compound one mistake with another.
Mistake possibilities include:

Forcing the kids to marry
Forcing the girl to raise the child
Forcing the child to be put up for adoption
Forcing the girl to get an abortion.

Everyone, including the parents, have ideas as to what is most convenient for everyone...except nobody is making a plan for the baby or what happens next in the aftermath of a birth for all of the children involved.

It was for convenience that the boy and girl weren't supervised sufficiently to keep this from happening to begin with. I mean really...they aren't old enough for dating unsupervised in my world...

Then....both dating kids need some serious counseling. Sure they got hormones but they absolutely disregarded every warning out there and the morals of their community. There are some issues there needing attention. Especially with her....it WILL happen again if her emotional needs are not met.

What's being focused on is the obvious "problem" but not on the manner or reasons the parties involved made the choices they did. This is purely two sets of parents fault.
Not the kids who caused the baby....sure they own some blame but really? In today's culture? They don't know how to do much of anything else...which is why this happened.

There's a lot here to unpack, and I agree with some immediately, such as these are regular people, and we love convenience as Americans.

I don't think it's fair to say nobody is thinking of the child. Can you help me by expanding this statement?

I am leaning toward keeping this child is simply a better option for both of these young people, than trying to separate either of them. Part of this is based on the idea that the Child will need a male and female role-model, AND that both parents will, at some point, want a say in their own child's life. Another point that speaks here, to me, is that these two have become One Flesh according to scripture. Even if we wanted to keep them apart, God himself has, by nature, bound them.

 

[JohnDB]

There's a lot here to unpack, and I agree with some immediately, such as these are regular people, and we love convenience as Americans.

I don't think it's fair to say nobody is thinking of the child. Can you help me by expanding this statement?

I am leaning toward keeping this child is simply a better option for both of these young people, than trying to separate either of them. Part of this is based on the idea that the Child will need a male and female role-model, AND that both parents will, at some point, want a say in their own child's life. Another point that speaks here, to me, is that these two have become One Flesh according to scripture. Even if we wanted to keep them apart, God himself has, by nature, bound them.

Well usually what we say about kids at this age is that they are incapable of making commitments...therefore unable to be married. What we call this is the sin of fornication. Mostly because despite their best intentions they don't have the life experience of honoring commitments when they become difficult.

When I say that nobody is thinking of the baby....when the baby is older it's going to cause issues if mom and dad are too close in age to the baby's age. Also career opportunities are going to be extremely limited....and that's just the start of misgivings available to the biological parents. When friends are going off for vacation weekends to the beach they are staying behind to care for their child. That's going to happen too.

Also with years of maturity comes the ability to remain calm in super difficult situations. The ability to see straight through the emotional turmoil of a situation to what should be said and done...when something is important and when it isn't. (Like not having sex was important)

There are literally hundreds of thousands of mature Christian couples who can't have children in line waiting for a baby such as this one. Most of them willing to pay for everything and extra besides. Also many will allow a birth mother and father to have some access to their child over the years.

Sometimes a family relative will have the desire or need to adopt...it can be a help or it can make things difficult....just depends.

Then....
On top of this....both the teen dad and the teen mom need some help with dealing emotionally with all of this. Their parents have already failed miserably in about a dozen ways already. So not getting them counseling is the dumbest thing to do.

Because the girl is needing attention. So is the boy. Sure they found it through sex but look what that caused. And if those needs aren't addressed properly by EVERYONE then this is going to cause even more issues in the future. She could easily get pregnant again, he could father another child....those are just the simple issues arriving of not addressing their needs. There are a lot worse of ones available. A whole lot worse.

 

[apwall21]

Ok....I'm thinking that these are normal American kids....
Then....both dating kids need some serious counseling. Sure they got hormones but they absolutely disregarded every warning out there and the morals of their community. There are some issues there needing attention. Especially with her....it WILL happen again if her emotional needs are not met.

This makes me uncomfortable, and I can't quite unpack why. Both kids are academically on time, excelling in at least one subject each; both kids routinely did volunteer work in both churches until now; both kids went through a VBS every year, participated in their church functions, etc.; both kids are pleasant. Both are athletic, and this is how they met without competent chaperone, apparently. Both have brothers and sisters, and their parents are busy in their churches.

Well usually what we say about kids at this age is that they are incapable of making commitments...therefore unable to be married. What we call this is the sin of fornication. Mostly because despite their best intentions they don't have the life experience of honoring commitments when they become difficult.

What married couple does know how to honor their vows?

When I say that nobody is thinking of the baby....when the baby is older it's going to cause issues if mom and dad are too close in age to the baby's age.

Like losing him in a temple at age 12?

Also career opportunities are going to be extremely limited....and that's just the start of misgivings available to the biological parents. When friends are going off for vacation weekends to the beach they are staying behind to care for their child. That's going to happen too.

Do married couples not go to the beach? Are baby-sitters not available? What does having a child do to limit the learning capacity of either parent? I comprehend that time might be spent in other learning pursuits (how to keep a child and a spouse, specifically). But what is wrong with being early experts on either of these?

Also with years of maturity comes the ability to remain calm in super difficult situations. The ability to see straight through the emotional turmoil of a situation to what should be said and done...when something is important and when it isn't. (Like not having sex was important)

Paul ordered Widows to remarry for fear of their fleshly desires. Am I going to place a larger burden on the youngest among us, than Paul gave the older, more experienced, over THEIR hormones.

Because the girl is needing attention. So is the boy. Sure they found it through sex but look what that caused. And if those needs aren't addressed properly by EVERYONE then this is going to cause even more issues in the future. She could easily get pregnant again, he could father another child....those are just the simple issues arriving of not addressing their needs. There are a lot worse of ones available. A whole lot worse.

Both should have more children, imo. They can give each other attention, since they're already started on that. Sex is designed to make kids, not sure what you mean by "look what..."

Does splitting them up, and treating this event like a one-off, a hole in the wall to be patched up and hidden as best as possible, keep them from worse decisions? Even if we get them more counseling, what is the point of counseling, except to teach them to make better, and live with their, choices? Won't the child being theirs to raise do exactly this?

 

[Genipher]

What married couple does know how to honor their vows?

Um. My husband and I have honored our vows.
I'm pretty sure there are plenty of others out there that have, as well.
The insinuation that married couples can't honor their vows is a bit offensive.

 

[Subhumanoidal]

Ok....I'm thinking that these are normal American kids....

As such...

You should not compound one mistake with another.
Mistake possibilities include:

Forcing the kids to marry
Forcing the girl to raise the child
Forcing the child to be put up for adoption
Forcing the girl to get an abortion.

Everyone, including the parents, have ideas as to what is most convenient for everyone...except nobody is making a plan for the baby or what happens next in the aftermath of a birth for all of the children involved.

It was for convenience that the boy and girl weren't supervised sufficiently to keep this from happening to begin with. I mean really...they aren't old enough for dating unsupervised in my world...

Then....both dating kids need some serious counseling. Sure they got hormones but they absolutely disregarded every warning out there and the morals of their community. There are some issues there needing attention. Especially with her....it WILL happen again if her emotional needs are not met.

What's being focused on is the obvious "problem" but not on the manner or reasons the parties involved made the choices they did. This is purely two sets of parents fault.
Not the kids who caused the baby....sure they own some blame but really? In today's culture? They don't know how to do much of anything else...which is why this happened.

Marriage only because of pregnancy is a Horrible idea and rarely works, and that includes for adults.
The fairy tale assumption is that the two will eventually learn to love each other and become happy in the long run. What is more common is resentment and bitterness between the two.


And, yes, having both parents around is ideal, but that's assuming both will be happy in the marriage and with being a parent. Otherwise you have two unhappy (at best) people tolerate each other and the example of marriage is still skewed to the child. And that will likely end in divorce anyways.
And at worst abuse will happen. Someone I once knew this happened to. They were young adults in church, got pregnant and pressured to marry. She had no real interest in a serious relationship with him (it was just lust) and it showed in their marriage. He could tell and made efforts to change her mind, but being pressured into a marriage made it difficult.
He began resenting her for rejecting him, and for losing out on the plans he had for his life and became verbally abusive. They had some more kids and he could be verbally abusive to them as well (though much worse to her).
Even though they stayed married for over 10 years she eventually couldn't handle the abuse and kicked him out.
It ultimately ruined her entire life, the abuse ruined her mentally and emotionally and she was never able to grow to be independent of his money, which he used against her.
Last we spoke they had been separated over 20 years and her life was still in shambles, as was she.

So, yes, the kids had a male and female in their life, but was that really for the best?
Her oldest daughter became selfish and pushy and easily disregarded others (similar to her dad), her son I'm not sure of, but he developed a close friendship with a homosexual and defending homosexual rights and her youngest, daddies favorite, got into self harm and drugs by the time she was 18.
They all resent their father and none of the kids will talk to him anymore. And they don't sound too close to their mother, either.

So marriage for the sake of the kids isn't, automatically, a good option if that marriage is bad.

 

[apwall21]

Um. My husband and I have honored our vows.
I'm pretty sure there are plenty of others out there that have, as well.
The insinuation that married couples can't honor their vows is a bit offensive.

Thanks for replying, and I didn't mean to test anyone's fidelity by the question. But for one immediate response, what is the divorce rate among "adults" at this point, even in "churches"? America's sexual promiscuity is being sold on daytime "all ages TV" at this point, and I don't even know if I can speak of the abhorrent choices...
But more to the point I was making, which couple hasn't needed to seek advice from a parent, friend, or counselor, probably dozens of times a year? Nobody really gets what they are getting into with a marriage. The Honeymoon wears off, and there are all these little things that have to be smoothed out. Sometimes huge things.

assuming both will be happy in the marriage and with being a parent. .

They are, biologically, quite happy with being parents, or they wouldn't have tried to make a child, I would argue. Will they be happier committing themselves spiritually to what looks, to me, like adultery?
I would counter some of your scenario's implications with a query; if anyone in this society tries to keep these couples together, or if we automatically assume they should have split, and thus give no support, and worse, no real expectation of success?

 

[apwall21]

Marriage only because of pregnancy is a Horrible idea and rarely works, and that includes for adults.
The fairy tale assumption is that the two will eventually learn to love each other and become happy in the long run. What is more common is resentment and bitterness between the two.


And, yes, having both parents around is ideal, but that's assuming both will be happy in the marriage and with being a parent. Otherwise you have two unhappy (at best) people tolerate each other and the example of marriage is still skewed to the child. And that will likely end in divorce anyways.
And at worst abuse will happen. Someone I once knew this happened to. They were young adults in church, got pregnant and pressured to marry. She had no real interest in a serious relationship with him (it was just lust) and it showed in their marriage. He could tell and made efforts to change her mind, but being pressured into a marriage made it difficult.
He began resenting her for rejecting him, and for losing out on the plans he had for his life and became verbally abusive. They had some more kids and he could be verbally abusive to them as well (though much worse to her).
Even though they stayed married for over 10 years she eventually couldn't handle the abuse and kicked him out.
It ultimately ruined her entire life, the abuse ruined her mentally and emotionally and she was never able to grow to be independent of his money, which he used against her.
Last we spoke they had been separated over 20 years and her life was still in shambles, as was she.

So, yes, the kids had a male and female in their life, but was that really for the best?
Her oldest daughter became selfish and pushy and easily disregarded others (similar to her dad), her son I'm not sure of, but he developed a close friendship with a homosexual and defending homosexual rights and her youngest, daddies favorite, got into self harm and drugs by the time she was 18.
They all resent their father and none of the kids will talk to him anymore. And they don't sound too close to their mother, either.

So marriage for the sake of the kids isn't, automatically, a good option if that marriage is bad.

From rereading this, it sounds like the home was unwelcoming for the man of the house, and someone should have sat her down and told her to honor the head of the house. Someone also probably should have explained that once she had a child, the kinds of men she was going to most readily attract were not the kind that would make her happy, at all. Not alot of parents out there seeking single teenage mothers for their sons, even if that's possibly very unfair.

 

[Polar]

their parents are busy in their churches.

maybe too busy judging by your post first responsibility would be the children; not busy in their church.

What married couple does know how to honor their vows?

who do you hang out with exactly? smh

Paul ordered Widows to remarry for fear of their fleshly desires. Am I going to place a larger burden on the youngest among us, than Paul gave the older, more experienced, over THEIR hormones.

no he didn't. he said that to the younger widows, not the older ones. the older ones might not want to get remarried judging from the attitudes they may have had to put up with while married

Both should have more children, imo. They can give each other attention, since they're already started on that. Sex is designed to make kids, not sure what you mean by "look what..."

I can't even

Does splitting them up, and treating this event like a one-off, a hole in the wall to be patched up and hidden as best as possible, keep them from worse decisions? Even if we get them more counseling, what is the point of counseling, except to teach them to make better, and live with their, choices? Won't the child being theirs to raise do exactly this?

I guess your views may not have gone over so well in your church so you came here to wrastle

 

[Polar]

Marriage only because of pregnancy is a Horrible idea and rarely works, and that includes for adults.
The fairy tale assumption is that the two will eventually learn to love each other and become happy in the long run. What is more common is resentment and bitterness between the two.

 

[Polar]

From rereading this, it sounds like the home was unwelcoming for the man of the house, and someone should have sat her down and told her to honor the head of the house. Someone also probably should have explained that once she had a child, the kinds of men she was going to most readily attract were not the kind that would make her happy, at all. Not alot of parents out there seeking single teenage mothers for their sons, even if that's possibly very unfair.

Yes please. Let's just explain to all females that men are always superior and it is always the female's fault

For some reason, that puts me in mind of the Ferengi.

Get out much do yah?

 

[apwall21]

maybe too busy judging by your post first responsibility would be the children; not busy in their church.

Bit late for judgement there.

no he didn't. he said that to the younger widows, not the older ones. the older ones might not want to get remarried judging from the attitudes they may have had to put up with while married

And how old are "younger widows" in this context? The point is that men and women who have already been married and are in breeding years should remarry according to Paul. That's because they may otherwise be inflamed. Those "younger widows" would, necessarily, already have been married, and thus likely be older than these young adults to whom you expect sexual perfect behavior, where God has not spoken such an absurdity.

Yes please. [snark, snark and insult]

I too hate the Bible and the order which God laid out there.

 

[apwall21]

Irrelevant, the consequences of Sin aren't comforts. They will have made their bed, so to speak. Why would one suggest a further sin in adultery, or in fornication for life, as the new father and mother, instead of raising their child together, "test the waters as teens," like everyone else in the US does these days?

 

[Beckie]

Thanks for replying, and I didn't mean to test anyone's fidelity by the question. But for one immediate response, what is the divorce rate among "adults" at this point, even in "churches"? America's sexual promiscuity is being sold on daytime "all ages TV" at this point, and I don't even know if I can speak of the abhorrent choices...
But more to the point I was making, which couple hasn't needed to seek advice from a parent, friend, or counselor, probably dozens of times a year? Nobody really gets what they are getting into with a marriage. The Honeymoon wears off, and there are all these little things that have to be smoothed out. Sometimes huge things.


They are, biologically, quite happy with being parents, or they wouldn't have tried to make a child, I would argue. Will they be happier committing themselves spiritually to what looks, to me, like adultery?
I would counter some of your scenario's implications with a query; if anyone in this society tries to keep these couples together, or if we automatically assume they should have split, and thus give no support, and worse, no real expectation of success?

Teenage sex because 'every one is doing it' has zero connection to parent hood or marriage, in the minds of those kids.
I will lay odds the difference between, this couple spoken of, and most the other kids .. shall we say this couple "got caught"

 

[apwall21]

Teenage sex because 'every one is doing it' has zero connection to parent hood or marriage, in the minds of those kids.
I will lay odds the difference between, this couple spoken of, and most the other kids .. shall we say this couple "got caught"

I'm not suggesting they should have sex because everyone is. I'm trying to say they're adult humans with young minds, and near zero experience being adults, and we seem to have a higher standard toward their perfection than we do toward widows who have had a decade or two to learn about controlling their sexual desires.
As for this couple getting "caught," there is always someone who catches you, even if you don't see it right away. All our lives will be brought to account in the day of Judgment, and there is no temptation which is not common. There are only better and worse choices, and that includes how we respond Before AND After people are Tempted, Failure or No.

 

[Beckie]

I'm not suggesting they should have sex because everyone is. I'm trying to say they're adult humans with young minds, and near zero experience being adults, and we seem to have a higher standard toward their perfection than we do toward widows who have had a decade or two to learn about controlling their sexual desires.
As for this couple getting "caught," there is always someone who catches you, even if you don't see it right away. All our lives will be brought to account in the day of Judgment, and there is no temptation which is not common. There are only better and worse choices, and that includes how we respond Before AND After people are Tempted, Failure or No.

The liberal mind at play

 

[apwall21]

The liberal mind at play

Please explain? Near as I can tell, suggesting that young adults get married instead of committing fornication, is as "regressive" as I can possibly be against this current culture.

 

[apwall21]

The liberal mind at play

Oooh, you think that the court defining people as minors ignores what God himself built as biology? Was God then an Ebiphile when Mary was impregnated in her young teens?

 

[JohnDB]

Please explain? Near as I can tell, suggesting that young adults get married instead of committing fornication, is as "regressive" as I can possibly be against this current culture.

People have bad habits and baggage no matter how hard they try. IOW everyone becomes their parents and everyone believes that they are going to do better than their parents. Both are true....obviously these things aren't congruent.

Because people make choices based on the sum total of experiences they have had. And here we have a pair of teens who have had poor parental role models to follow desiring to now perpetrate the same on an innocent baby. Not enough experience that comes with age to do better.

There are plenty of adoptive parents available with long stable histories, resources of finances and families that are extensive....providing education, love, stability, and nurture that teen parents simply can't.
Which is better for the child?

Children aren't accessories. They aren't an addition to a glamorous life. They stop being cute when they turn 13.

The statistics for teen parents are lousy....the common thing is that by the time the state catches up with the teen mother or father (usually one of the two has abandoned the situation by this point) being an inadequate parent and steps in the child is placed in foster care and is abused by state agencies afterwards....the child has severe mental health issues from the poor parenting and "abandonment " by their parents and eventually the child "graduates" to the involuntary hotel....

That's the "usual and customary" cycle of teen parenting. (So many stories of this if I had a dollar for every story I'd permanently retire)

Life never works according to plan.
What happens if he decides "he can't deal with this" and moves away? Joins the military to get an education but never returns like he says he is going to....

Or her family decides to leave the area....to get daughter away from that boy and his influences.....neither he nor she can do anything about it. (Seen that happen too)

Marriage is difficult enough...insta-families make it near impossible for thirty-somethings....now teenagers are going to be better at this?

Really?