Church and State...

TMS · Jul 22, 2022

Religion and politics

Church and state

Personal beliefs and laws of the country.

When America was establishing it's First Amendment of the constitution reads: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."

Can anyone else see things changing, not just in the US, but in many countries. The freedoms disappearing.

In prophesy a beast is used to represent a country or nation.
Rev 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

Can anyone else see forced worship an issue. If we know it or not, the second beast causes us to worship first beast.

JaumeJ · Jul 22, 2022

From the Word, I foresee the majority religion attmpting to force individuals to become part of what they dictate as belief.

When this comes into being those who believe Jesus Yeshua will be hunted down and beheaded..

I am not a particularly brave person, so I relay on our Father to give me all the valor I shall need to do what is correct..

As for being forced, no one can be forced to believe what they cannot believe..

As a child when prayer is schools was banned, I thought, I will pray where ver I am, and others may ormay not be aware I amso ding.. This nonsense ab out being holier than thou because one is against the ban is all show. A person can pray where ever he or she is for God knos it. Do not stand on the corner praying with a loud voice for people to see and ehar for that is your reward.

Pray in scret and our Fasther, Who hears in scret will reward you in the sight of all.

JohnDB · Jul 22, 2022

The Church of Pennsylvania however was free to establish a religion....in modern times we say that Pennsylvania is a state. But during the time period of the writing of the constitution there was only one congress....the Federal Congress.

Roughsoul1991 · Jul 22, 2022

JohnDB said:

It is funny to think about but states once made it illegal to hold an office if the individual wasn't a Christian. They also had states that only allowed their denomination.

p_rehbein · Jul 22, 2022

TMS said:

"Forced worship?" I would think forcing people to "not worship" would be more problematic. In fact, in these last couple of years, our Government has forced Christians to "not worship" as a Congregation gathered together by enacting their "covid Laws."

Even here in Bama, with a Republican Govenor, who claims Christianity, she ordered church services to be suspended, yet allowed abortion clinics to remain open and operating.

All of this is to be suspected. There is nothing happening that Jesus did not tell us it would happen. I do not worry about the Government "silencing" my worship of God. Only I can do that by living with a "spirit of fear."

Keep the Faith, and worship and praise God.

Matthew, Chapter 6:

34Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.

F.Y.I.

Church and State is NOT in the Constitution. The First Amendment concerns the Establishment Clause. Jefferson wrote a letter to a congregaiton in the New England area where he included the words "church and state," and this is the only place it ever appeared in the writings of our Founding Fathers. They NEVER intended for Church and State to be seperated, rather that the State COULD NOT establish a State Church/Religion or Denomination.

Beckie · Jul 22, 2022

Dare to be a Daniel
Dare to stand alone
Dare to have a purpose firm
Dare to make it known
Standing by a purpose true

Heeding God's command
Honor them, the faithful few
All hail to Daniel's band

Many mighty men are lost
Daring not to stand
Who for God had been a host
By joining Daniel's band

Many giants, great and tall
Stalking through the land
Headlong to the earth would fall
If met by Daniel's band

Hold the Gospel banner high
On to vict'ry grand
Satan and his hosts defy
And shout for Daniel's band
Dare to be a Daniel

Dare to stand alone
Dare to have a purpose firm
Dare to make it known
Dare to make it known

ResidentAlien · Jul 22, 2022

TMS said:

No question it's coming. I'm not exactly clear on all the details, but it will happen eventually.

Snacks · Jul 22, 2022

TMS said:

Forced worship is already taking place in America. Drink the democrat marxist Kool-Aide or else. Case in point: when the FBI investigates parents for standing up to leftist school boards, you have forced worship.

Mission21 · Jul 22, 2022

To: OP/TMS
Interesting topic/post.
--
Church & State issue has been..ongoing/continuing in United States.
---
Historical note:
Many of early settlers in North America came..from England & Continent.
- To escape persecution..from the State & Church establishments.

Mission21 · Jul 22, 2022

p_rehbein said:

Good point.
----
Some countries still have..State/National Church.

Dirtman · Jul 22, 2022

TMS said:

Religion and politics

Church and state

Personal beliefs and laws of the country.

When America was establishing it's First Amendment of the constitution reads: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."

Can anyone else see things changing, not just in the US, but in many countries. The freedoms disappearing.

In prophesy a beast is used to represent a country or nation.
Rev 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

Can anyone else see forced worship an issue. If we know it or not, the second beast causes us to worship first beast.

Luther wrote extensively on this matter. I recommend reading what he had to say it is very insightful.

Runningman · Jul 22, 2022

JaumeJ said:

Amen. We can pray in our thoughts and and heart too. God sees and hears everything.

I don’t know if prayer, preaching, or Bible-reading was illegal when I was in school or not. I see you were saved in 1969 on your profile, making you a lot older than me. I was one of those teenagers who carried a Bible in the hallways, read it when I wasn’t busy with school work, openly prayed, and preached the gospel to people in a secular public school. I don’t recall anyone ever telling me to stop, though.

Regulating prayer in schools sounds like crossing a line to me. If a school can stop someone from praying vocally then I think to obey the school would be a sin because prayer is a requirement. For that reason all laws that cause sin should be resisted. Just my perspective on the matter.

Pilgrimshope · Jul 22, 2022

TMS said:

thanks for sharing good read

“Can anyone else see forced worship an issue. If we know it or not, the second beast causes us to worship first beast.”

and Satan gives his power and authority on earth to the first beast “the sort of unholy trinity “ as some call it

“And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭12:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The first beast embodies Satan the spiritual dragon cast from heaven into earth when this happens the beast rises in the dragons image and the dragon gives the beast his power and authority

“And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

If any man have an ear, let him hear.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭13:1, 4-9‬ ‭

Note the importance of it all “ anyone with ears to hear need to hear it “

It’s also how it mocks the biblical message of God the Father , the Son and Holy Spirit ?

God makes man in his own image and likeness with his Holy Spirit

the dragon creates a beast made in his image with a corrupt evil spirit.

“And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

then as your saying the first beast is worshipped because of the second beast it causes the people of earth to worship the first beast , whomis the image of Satan and is empowered by the dragons authority on earth this earthly beast appears “like” a lamb to sight , but it’s words, it’s message is of the dragon. And his power is coming from the first beast who he’s causing people to worship

“And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭13:2, 11-12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Another mock of the resurrection of Christ the son and image of God I’d say there’s a way of seeing the earthly beast as a false religion , a false Christianity claiming to be of the lamb but the doctrine is not of the lamb it’s rejecting the lambs words and speaking as dragon instead deceiving the people who have rejected the gospel in the world causing many to say “ I believe “ but then also reject his word and accept the deceptions out there claiming to be his word

I’d say “ the appearance like a lamb with two horns but speaking as a dragon “ is most likely false Christian doctrine claiming to lead a person to God but really thier being deceived into worshipping the false mock of Christ

who requires no morality or repentance , but still appears to have died and his death wound was healed . It’s like a message that says I believe Jesus died and rose but I reject what Jesus said and accept this other message

anyways I’m sorry for the rant here lol I just enjoyed the post and how your concluding the order and function of the two beasts there God bless

arthurfleminger · Jul 22, 2022

TMS said:

TMS, you say that, "The freedoms(religious) are disappearing." Which freedom/freedoms of religion are you speaking of, that you think we've lost? Just wondering as I don't feel that any of my religious freedoms have disappeared. But maybe I'm not seeing what others are encountering. Thanks.

ResidentAlien · Jul 22, 2022

TMS said:

The loss of liberties or freedoms isn't necessarily a bad thing. To those whose hope is in them it may seem like the end of the world. We are slaves to Christ but are free indeed. (John 8:36)

"For when they speak great swelling words of emptiness, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through lewdness, the ones who have actually escaped from those who live in error. While they promise them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage." 2 Peter 2:18-19

Liberty in this world doesn't always lend itself to freedom in Him.

rev_GOH · Jul 22, 2022

TMS said:

Hi,

Your timing is somewhat coincidental... one of my earlier posts focused on William's Blakes artwork that depicted the same Revelation passages to which you are referring. Here is the original post and the commentary is here.

The "forced worship" to which you refer is overwhelmingly evident in the 3rd and 4th paintings.

Indeed this "forced worship" has begun, and is likely an omen of what ultimately will become a salvation for so many.

rev_GOH

HealthAndHappiness · Jul 22, 2022

Fun Fact!

If you want to read some interesting history, read the laws of the colonies and their communities. Then when the federal constitution was ratified and each nation state, former colonies, enacted their own constitutions, guess what document was often used as their Reference Manual for just governments?

p_rehbein · Jul 22, 2022

Mission21 said:

I know. However, here in America, we do not have a State Sponsored Church.
I do not see anyone being "forced" to worship, rather forced to NOT worship.

That is going by the definition of worship. As far as the far left liberals and their Kool-Aid goes, even then they can not "force" us to drink. IF we are willing to accept the consequences for NOT obeying their Directives, we can remain free from their sinful standards for society.

Best I can hope for is MARANATHA!

TMS · Jul 22, 2022

Satan is cunning, and forcing people to worship or not worship, as long as people are turned away from Jesus. He needs to do things so people accept it.
The laws of the government are cunning.
The pubs can keep practicing but for health reasons they force churches to stop.
I agree they can't force us to stop worshiping God.
But prophesy does say Gods people will be persecuted for being faithful.
Rev 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. 16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: 17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Mat 5:10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

We should be peaceful and meek but watchful and ready. We need to watch this space so we are not deceived by the dragon and caused to worship the beast.

1Pe 5:7 Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you. 8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: 9 Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.

pottersclay · Jul 23, 2022

The media would have you beleive that we the people are out numbered. They focus on a very small percentage of the population.
The current administration is a failure and many who voted them in are living the regret.
The only ones who embrace the ideas of this circus act are ones who benifit by lifestyle or love of lawlessness.
Weather this ushers in the new world order only time will tell.
As for the saints its time to stand up and be counted. This is not our home but we were called to tend it.
With much prayer the harvest can be huge.

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