And the SMOKE of their torment...No eternal damnation for anyone, except the Devil
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Jackson123 said:
do you believe people on the left in this verse go to eternal fire or hell?
matt 25
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and
This is ALWAYS how false teachers react to the truth. Then END the conversation. They don't like being refuted with truth, so then just stop. So typical. Matt 25:46 absolutely REFUTES the nonsense of annihilation of souls.
do you believe people on the left in this verse go to eternal fire or hell?
matt 25
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and
This is ALWAYS how false teachers react to the truth. Then END the conversation. They don't like being refuted with truth, so then just stop. So typical. Matt 25:46 absolutely REFUTES the nonsense of annihilation of souls.
Gideon300 said:
So Adam died on the day he disobeyed but not really? And judgement is the second death. If you are right, Satan was correct in what he said to Eve. That makes God a liar:
Genesis 2:
16And the LORD God commanded him, “You may eat freely from every tree of the garden, 17but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; for in the day that you eat of it, you will surely die.”
Adam actually did die "on that day" that he and the woman ate the forbidden fruit. They died spiritually. Which is why unbelievers are described as being "spiritually DEAD". They are physically alive, as Adam and the woman were after they ate, but they were spiritually dead.
That is why every human being needs to be born again, to be spiritually alive.
The literal Hebrew is "dying, you shall die". There were 2 deaths "on that day". Adam's physical body began the process of physical death (dying), which occurred nearly 1,000 years. These days, that process rarely exceeds 100 years. "you shall die" was spiritual death. Immediately upon eating the fruit.
btw, after nearly 1,000 years, Adam's body did die. But it didn't cease to exist upon his death. Neither does anyone else. Unless they died by a very high explosive. Boom!
So Adam died on the day he disobeyed but not really? And judgement is the second death. If you are right, Satan was correct in what he said to Eve. That makes God a liar:
Genesis 2:
16And the LORD God commanded him, “You may eat freely from every tree of the garden, 17but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; for in the day that you eat of it, you will surely die.”
Adam actually did die "on that day" that he and the woman ate the forbidden fruit. They died spiritually. Which is why unbelievers are described as being "spiritually DEAD". They are physically alive, as Adam and the woman were after they ate, but they were spiritually dead.
That is why every human being needs to be born again, to be spiritually alive.
The literal Hebrew is "dying, you shall die". There were 2 deaths "on that day". Adam's physical body began the process of physical death (dying), which occurred nearly 1,000 years. These days, that process rarely exceeds 100 years. "you shall die" was spiritual death. Immediately upon eating the fruit.
btw, after nearly 1,000 years, Adam's body did die. But it didn't cease to exist upon his death. Neither does anyone else. Unless they died by a very high explosive. Boom!
Gideon300 said:
So what is death? You won't accept the obvious from God's word. So how do you define it?
Why do you dodge these excellent questions? Because they put you in a corner, right??
I would love to see how you define "death". It's sure not clear from any of your posts. Esp since you and klero brings such irrelevant defintions to the discussion.
Please answer the question. Don't be afraid to show yourself.
So what is death? You won't accept the obvious from God's word. So how do you define it?
Why do you dodge these excellent questions? Because they put you in a corner, right??
I would love to see how you define "death". It's sure not clear from any of your posts. Esp since you and klero brings such irrelevant defintions to the discussion.
Please answer the question. Don't be afraid to show yourself.
Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Genesis 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
Genesis 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
The first death, the death of the body is just a change in circumstances for the spirit soul of the person. There is a resurrection of the dead after the first death, both the just and unjust, in which we find them being judged 1000 years later...in which some receive their immortality (name in book of life) while others go into the lake of fire that kills both the body and soul. So the 2nd death there is no return from, but the 1st there definitely is, which I am saying because
you said "making the first death eternal and irreversible".
Genesis 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
Genesis 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
The first death, the death of the body is just a change in circumstances for the spirit soul of the person. There is a resurrection of the dead after the first death, both the just and unjust, in which we find them being judged 1000 years later...in which some receive their immortality (name in book of life) while others go into the lake of fire that kills both the body and soul. So the 2nd death there is no return from, but the 1st there definitely is, which I am saying because
you said "making the first death eternal and irreversible".
Quick recap
of WHAT IS WRITTEN vs what some men teach, even though it is NOT WRITTEN anywhere
Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Revelation 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Revelation 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Revelation 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Revelation 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone:
which is the second death.
And what is their part? DEATH. That is their destiny.
What are the choices set before us 'Life or Death' , NOT eternal wonderful life or eternal tormented life
In case we have ANYONE remaining willfully ignorant
there is not one verse about the lake of fire where souls
HAVING BEEN judged to the 2nd death
NOT ONLY DON'T EXPERIENCE THAT DEATH (OF THE BODY AND SOUL)
BUT INSTEAD ARE GIVEN ETERNAL LIFE, TO BE IN CONSCIOUS TORMENT
Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Since 1 Corinthians 15:26 says The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death and only the beast and false prophet are mentioned before that WHO do you suppose is ADDING TO SCRIPTURE by teaching that THOSE SOULS are not being put to death at all but are really receiving eternal life to be forever tormented?
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
of WHAT IS WRITTEN vs what some men teach, even though it is NOT WRITTEN anywhere
Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Revelation 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Revelation 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Revelation 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Revelation 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone:
which is the second death.
And what is their part? DEATH. That is their destiny.
What are the choices set before us 'Life or Death' , NOT eternal wonderful life or eternal tormented life
In case we have ANYONE remaining willfully ignorant
there is not one verse about the lake of fire where souls
HAVING BEEN judged to the 2nd death
NOT ONLY DON'T EXPERIENCE THAT DEATH (OF THE BODY AND SOUL)
BUT INSTEAD ARE GIVEN ETERNAL LIFE, TO BE IN CONSCIOUS TORMENT
Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Since 1 Corinthians 15:26 says The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death and only the beast and false prophet are mentioned before that WHO do you suppose is ADDING TO SCRIPTURE by teaching that THOSE SOULS are not being put to death at all but are really receiving eternal life to be forever tormented?
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
The whole discussion of conscious eternal torment can be summed up from the words of Jesus Christ.
Matt 10:15 - Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment, than for that city.
Matt 11:22 - But I say unto you, it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment, than for you.
Matt 11:24 - But I say unto you that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.
This shows that Jesus taught that "in the day of judgment", a reference to the GWT judgment of all unbelievers, there will be DEGREES of tolerableness among the unbelievers.
For some, it will be more tolerable. And for others, it will be less tolerable.
The point is that there will be NO intolerable suffering in the LOF. The torment will be varying levels of tolerance.
So says Jesus.
Matt 10:15 - Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment, than for that city.
Matt 11:22 - But I say unto you, it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment, than for you.
Matt 11:24 - But I say unto you that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.
This shows that Jesus taught that "in the day of judgment", a reference to the GWT judgment of all unbelievers, there will be DEGREES of tolerableness among the unbelievers.
For some, it will be more tolerable. And for others, it will be less tolerable.
The point is that there will be NO intolerable suffering in the LOF. The torment will be varying levels of tolerance.
So says Jesus.
How horrible it must be, trying to KEEP defending something that isn't written and isn't taught. Look what it has you reaching for.
so as we are concerned with the WHEN and the duration, let's see what you have brought to the table.
IN THE DAY OF JUDGMENT. The Great white throne Judgment. The ending of this age and when we are in the New Heaven and New earth, that day becomes "OF THE FORMER EARTH" as He says, HE MAKES ALL THINGS NEW.
Remember THAT IS THE TIME OF the 2nd death and we know there WILL BE NO no more DEATH and no more PAIN so varying 'degrees' WONT be allowed EITHER.
at least you finally brought something new. To bad it ALSO backs up it all coming to an end.
so as we are concerned with the WHEN and the duration, let's see what you have brought to the table.
IN THE DAY OF JUDGMENT. The Great white throne Judgment. The ending of this age and when we are in the New Heaven and New earth, that day becomes "OF THE FORMER EARTH" as He says, HE MAKES ALL THINGS NEW.
Remember THAT IS THE TIME OF the 2nd death and we know there WILL BE NO no more DEATH and no more PAIN so varying 'degrees' WONT be allowed EITHER.
at least you finally brought something new. To bad it ALSO backs up it all coming to an end.
Uh no I'm not in a corner. I see my self standing out in the open for several dozen pages trying to help the people here understand and I've already explained what death is. The person I was talking to came into this conversation very late and said death is a seperation from God which the Bible doesn't say.
I don't think telling you the Biblical definition of death again will help you. So I won't give you what you're asking for.
Often I answer questions with a question because I know that if people like you feel like something is their idea then they're more likely to accept it.
So let's ask this: when Jesus said God can destroy body and soul in hell or when James said that God is able to save or destroy, do you see they are talking bout hell being a place where the only option is being destroyed?
They worded it this way because the alterntive is that God can save someone. John 3:16 puts it concisely and completely. Believe in God's Son and have everlasting life. Don't believe in God's Son and perish. Those are the only options. Perish means "destroy utterly." That's called complete death of the person. Don't forget a person is a body, soul, and spirit.
I don't think telling you the Biblical definition of death again will help you. So I won't give you what you're asking for.
Often I answer questions with a question because I know that if people like you feel like something is their idea then they're more likely to accept it.
So let's ask this: when Jesus said God can destroy body and soul in hell or when James said that God is able to save or destroy, do you see they are talking bout hell being a place where the only option is being destroyed?
They worded it this way because the alterntive is that God can save someone. John 3:16 puts it concisely and completely. Believe in God's Son and have everlasting life. Don't believe in God's Son and perish. Those are the only options. Perish means "destroy utterly." That's called complete death of the person. Don't forget a person is a body, soul, and spirit.
Why don't you complain to Jesus Himself? He is the One who taught that "on that day", referring to the GWT judgment, the sentence will be "more tolerable" for some than for others. That is what He said.
Interesting. Here, you "claim" to know what I have brought to the table. But then you IGNORE all the verses I have brought. That makes you dishonest and a fraud.
Dan 12:2 speaks of eternal shame and contempt for unbelievers.
Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.
Matt 25:46 - “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
Punishment ISN'T punishment IF it isn't being experienced, regardless of what you opine.
This is just another fantasy of yours. There is no "end" for either unbeliever or believer.
As Dan 12:2 says, the unbelievers will experience eternal shame and contempt, and the believers will have eternal life.
So you are just so confused.
Interesting. Here, you "claim" to know what I have brought to the table. But then you IGNORE all the verses I have brought. That makes you dishonest and a fraud.
Dan 12:2 speaks of eternal shame and contempt for unbelievers.
Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.
Matt 25:46 - “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
Punishment ISN'T punishment IF it isn't being experienced, regardless of what you opine.
This is just another fantasy of yours. There is no "end" for either unbeliever or believer.
As Dan 12:2 says, the unbelievers will experience eternal shame and contempt, and the believers will have eternal life.
So you are just so confused.
Your eyes are just closed.
Typical kind of response when a poster actually doesn't have an answer.
No, because neither passage SAYS that. You are just adding your own opinion to Scripture.
Of course God is able to cause souls to cease. But NOWHERE in the Bible do we read about God having done that or will do that. Your imagination is just way too active.
What I read in the Bible is that for all unbelievers, there will be the experience of an eternal shame and contempt and punishment. You know the verses. I don't have to repeat them.
If a soul has ceased to exist, there is NOTHING to experience. But anyone with a lick of sense KNOWS that shame, contempt and punishment are all experienced. And the Bible describes them as being ETERNAL.
Your biggest hang-up is in your failure to understand what "perish" means. It means physical death in most passages. It NEVER means "cease to exist" in any passage. That's just your over active imagination thinking so.
You are the one without evidence for your claims.
And Jesus made clear that unbelievers will experience the LOF as either more or less tolerable.
This should actually ease some of your maudlin sentiments about ECT. There is nothing in Scripture that speaks of INtolerable torment.
Jesus told us of a rich man who was "in torment". Yet, he was able to carry on a conversation with Abraham. People in extreme pain or torment are not able to do that. They speak in short bursts only.
So, even though the Bible describes the rich man as being "in torment", it wasn't INtolerable. It WAS tolerable. He was able to carry on a discussion.
The discussion centers on what Jesus said. I gave you 3 verses where Jesus talked about final judgment as being "more tolerable" for some than for others.
So it is a matter of "more or less" tolerable, all based on the GWT judgment of what unbelievers have done during their lives.
You can be sure those who lived EVIL and WICKED lives will experience a LESS tolerable eternity, which those who lived moral lives will experience a MORE tolerable eternity.
From Jesus' own lips.
Typical kind of response when a poster actually doesn't have an answer.
No, because neither passage SAYS that. You are just adding your own opinion to Scripture.
Of course God is able to cause souls to cease. But NOWHERE in the Bible do we read about God having done that or will do that. Your imagination is just way too active.
What I read in the Bible is that for all unbelievers, there will be the experience of an eternal shame and contempt and punishment. You know the verses. I don't have to repeat them.
If a soul has ceased to exist, there is NOTHING to experience. But anyone with a lick of sense KNOWS that shame, contempt and punishment are all experienced. And the Bible describes them as being ETERNAL.
Your biggest hang-up is in your failure to understand what "perish" means. It means physical death in most passages. It NEVER means "cease to exist" in any passage. That's just your over active imagination thinking so.
You are the one without evidence for your claims.
And Jesus made clear that unbelievers will experience the LOF as either more or less tolerable.
This should actually ease some of your maudlin sentiments about ECT. There is nothing in Scripture that speaks of INtolerable torment.
Jesus told us of a rich man who was "in torment". Yet, he was able to carry on a conversation with Abraham. People in extreme pain or torment are not able to do that. They speak in short bursts only.
So, even though the Bible describes the rich man as being "in torment", it wasn't INtolerable. It WAS tolerable. He was able to carry on a discussion.
The discussion centers on what Jesus said. I gave you 3 verses where Jesus talked about final judgment as being "more tolerable" for some than for others.
So it is a matter of "more or less" tolerable, all based on the GWT judgment of what unbelievers have done during their lives.
You can be sure those who lived EVIL and WICKED lives will experience a LESS tolerable eternity, which those who lived moral lives will experience a MORE tolerable eternity.
From Jesus' own lips.
Then all you need to do is show that death isn’t death and something of the unsaved person lingers on forever in eternal conscious torment. I don’t see that in my Bible. I’ve pored over the Bible on this subject, researched online, read commentaries, and discussed it.
If the Bible says this, this should be a very easy undertaking for anyone. Can you even comprehend that the modern church is totally wrong on this point?
People say many things, but the Bible doesn’t outright say that all of the unsaved people live forever in any sense or are conscious in any sense after death if they go to hell.
If the Bible says this, this should be a very easy undertaking for anyone. Can you even comprehend that the modern church is totally wrong on this point?
People say many things, but the Bible doesn’t outright say that all of the unsaved people live forever in any sense or are conscious in any sense after death if they go to hell.