And the SMOKE of their torment...No eternal damnation for anyone, except the Devil
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No it doesn't. The text is very clear about Dan 12:2. It speaks of the 2 resurrecrtions, one for the saved and one for the unsaved. Any other understanding is ridiculous.
The unsaved will EXPERIENCE shame and contempt ETERNALLY. That isn't difficult to understand. You have no excuse.
btw, give me the actual verses in Isa 66 that you think define Dan 12:2.
The unsaved will EXPERIENCE shame and contempt ETERNALLY. That isn't difficult to understand. You have no excuse.
btw, give me the actual verses in Isa 66 that you think define Dan 12:2.
Nonsense.
If you know more than what Daniel 12:2 says about the resurrection and supporting texts about the order of events after the resurrection then Isaiah 66 makes perfect sense.
Isaiah 66:22-24
22For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
24And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
The word "abhorring" in Isaiah 66:24 is used literally two times in the Old Testament and the other time is in Daniel 12:2 where it says "contempt" this isn't an accident because the contexts of both verses match. Contempt = abhorrence.
According to Revelation 20, there is the resurrection of the dead where they are judged to see if they are in the book of life. If they are not in the book of life they are cast into the lake of fire.
The resurrection that "they" (the unsaved, unrighteous, wicked, etc) awaken to is one of shame and contempt because it is "they" (the saved, righteous) people in the New Heavens and New Earth are the ones feeling contempt at the sight of all of the burning carcases... "they shall be an abhorring to all flesh."
You're hitting this wall page after page of this thread because you hold the Biblically unsupported assumption that death isn't death when certainly it is. There is nothing left for anyone to feel after their body, soul, and spirit are dead in the lake of fire.
Ecclesiastes 9:5
5For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Gee, I wonder why Solomon just plainly stated the dead know nothing? Maybe because they don't know anything? They're dead.
James put it completely and clearly:
James 4:12
12There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?
Notice it says "save and to destroy" because those are the only options. There isn't a third option for eternal conscious torment despite what your church has clearly deceived you into believing.
This is very basic reasoning: if the righteous live forever with a body, soul, and spirt and the unrighteous are put to death then they don't keep a body, soul, or spirit. Jesus said "Fear Him who can destroy soul and body in hell" because that's the warning and the alternative to being saved.
John 3:16 - believe in God's Son and get eternal life. Don't believe in God's Son and perish.
If you know more than what Daniel 12:2 says about the resurrection and supporting texts about the order of events after the resurrection then Isaiah 66 makes perfect sense.
Isaiah 66:22-24
22For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
24And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
The word "abhorring" in Isaiah 66:24 is used literally two times in the Old Testament and the other time is in Daniel 12:2 where it says "contempt" this isn't an accident because the contexts of both verses match. Contempt = abhorrence.
According to Revelation 20, there is the resurrection of the dead where they are judged to see if they are in the book of life. If they are not in the book of life they are cast into the lake of fire.
The resurrection that "they" (the unsaved, unrighteous, wicked, etc) awaken to is one of shame and contempt because it is "they" (the saved, righteous) people in the New Heavens and New Earth are the ones feeling contempt at the sight of all of the burning carcases... "they shall be an abhorring to all flesh."
You're hitting this wall page after page of this thread because you hold the Biblically unsupported assumption that death isn't death when certainly it is. There is nothing left for anyone to feel after their body, soul, and spirit are dead in the lake of fire.
Ecclesiastes 9:5
5For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Gee, I wonder why Solomon just plainly stated the dead know nothing? Maybe because they don't know anything? They're dead.
James put it completely and clearly:
James 4:12
12There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?
Notice it says "save and to destroy" because those are the only options. There isn't a third option for eternal conscious torment despite what your church has clearly deceived you into believing.
This is very basic reasoning: if the righteous live forever with a body, soul, and spirt and the unrighteous are put to death then they don't keep a body, soul, or spirit. Jesus said "Fear Him who can destroy soul and body in hell" because that's the warning and the alternative to being saved.
John 3:16 - believe in God's Son and get eternal life. Don't believe in God's Son and perish.
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FreeGrace2 said:
No it doesn't. The text is very clear about Dan 12:2. It speaks of the 2 resurrecrtions, one for the saved and one for the unsaved. Any other understanding is ridiculous.
The unsaved will EXPERIENCE shame and contempt ETERNALLY. That isn't difficult to understand. You have no excuse.
btw, give me the actual verses in Isa 66 that you think define Dan 12:2.
Oh, really?
Let's see what you have.
lol. Nothing related to Dan 12:2, as I SAID. v.22 speaks of the NH & NE, which begins in Rev 21. However, v.22 and 23 speaks of FUTURE things, what is to come.
And...wait for it...ALL unbelievers will be DISPATCHED to the LOF at the end of Rev 20, so, I SAY AGAIN, Isa 66 doesn't apply or involve unbelievers in any way. They will NOT be anywhere near the NE. It's all about glorified believers, living on the NE with Jesus on the Throne and God with them. In fact, v.24 is simply the statement that glorified believers will look back on the unbelievers who are "more or less tolerating" the LOF.
It is just amazing that you seem totally unable to understand the clarity of Dan 12:2. The words CLEARLY separate the saved from the unsaved.
Here is a color coded quote, to help you see the reality of the verse:
Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.
Blue words state that ALL humans will be resurrected. See also John 5:28,29 and Acts 24:15.
Green words refer to all the saved. They will (their bodies will) be given immortality, or everlasting life.
Red words refer to ALL the unsaved. They will experience an everlasting shame and contempt.
Dan 12:2 clearly says the unbelievers will be resurrected to an EVERLASTING contempt. And since "shame" is included, it is obvious that the contempt is one of self contempt for their BAD decisions in life. Ignoring God, rejecting the gospel, etc.
Really?? "to see IF IF IF"? Don't you know that God is omniscient and already knows from before the foundation of the earth who will believe and receive eternal life and who won't?? Sheesh.
Yep. So what is the point of the judgment according to the "books of works"? To determine the level of "tolerability" in the LOF.
Where do you get the idea that anyone on the NE will see the LOF??
It just seems you can't resist your LYING. I've explained this enough that you have NO EXCUSE for your LIES. So stop it.
Death IS death, so stop your LYING about what I believe. But "death" refers to the body, which you seem incapable of understanding.
The LOF is called the second death at least twice in Revelation. That refers ONLY to the resurrected physical body. Your lack of discernment notwithstanding.
So you can't discern the truth from Dan 12:2 and Matt 25:46.
Shame, contempt (self) and punishment are all EXPERIENCED. For that to occur, the soul MUST exist.
The dead are no longer on earth and "know not anything" on earth". Duh.
Read Rev 6:9. They surely DO know a lot of things. And Read Luke 16 and what the rich man said to Abraham about his brothers.
Your views are so far off track of what the Bible clearly shows.
You have no excuse. Being ABLE TO and actually doing it are not the SAME THING, as you so wrongly presume.
What perishes is the resurrected mortal body that will be utterly destroyed in the LOF. Duh.
No it doesn't. The text is very clear about Dan 12:2. It speaks of the 2 resurrecrtions, one for the saved and one for the unsaved. Any other understanding is ridiculous.
The unsaved will EXPERIENCE shame and contempt ETERNALLY. That isn't difficult to understand. You have no excuse.
btw, give me the actual verses in Isa 66 that you think define Dan 12:2.
Oh, really?
Let's see what you have.
lol. Nothing related to Dan 12:2, as I SAID. v.22 speaks of the NH & NE, which begins in Rev 21. However, v.22 and 23 speaks of FUTURE things, what is to come.
And...wait for it...ALL unbelievers will be DISPATCHED to the LOF at the end of Rev 20, so, I SAY AGAIN, Isa 66 doesn't apply or involve unbelievers in any way. They will NOT be anywhere near the NE. It's all about glorified believers, living on the NE with Jesus on the Throne and God with them. In fact, v.24 is simply the statement that glorified believers will look back on the unbelievers who are "more or less tolerating" the LOF.
It is just amazing that you seem totally unable to understand the clarity of Dan 12:2. The words CLEARLY separate the saved from the unsaved.
Here is a color coded quote, to help you see the reality of the verse:
Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.
Blue words state that ALL humans will be resurrected. See also John 5:28,29 and Acts 24:15.
Green words refer to all the saved. They will (their bodies will) be given immortality, or everlasting life.
Red words refer to ALL the unsaved. They will experience an everlasting shame and contempt.
Dan 12:2 clearly says the unbelievers will be resurrected to an EVERLASTING contempt. And since "shame" is included, it is obvious that the contempt is one of self contempt for their BAD decisions in life. Ignoring God, rejecting the gospel, etc.
Really?? "to see IF IF IF"? Don't you know that God is omniscient and already knows from before the foundation of the earth who will believe and receive eternal life and who won't?? Sheesh.
Yep. So what is the point of the judgment according to the "books of works"? To determine the level of "tolerability" in the LOF.
Where do you get the idea that anyone on the NE will see the LOF??
It just seems you can't resist your LYING. I've explained this enough that you have NO EXCUSE for your LIES. So stop it.
Death IS death, so stop your LYING about what I believe. But "death" refers to the body, which you seem incapable of understanding.
The LOF is called the second death at least twice in Revelation. That refers ONLY to the resurrected physical body. Your lack of discernment notwithstanding.
So you can't discern the truth from Dan 12:2 and Matt 25:46.
Shame, contempt (self) and punishment are all EXPERIENCED. For that to occur, the soul MUST exist.
The dead are no longer on earth and "know not anything" on earth". Duh.
Read Rev 6:9. They surely DO know a lot of things. And Read Luke 16 and what the rich man said to Abraham about his brothers.
Your views are so far off track of what the Bible clearly shows.
You have no excuse. Being ABLE TO and actually doing it are not the SAME THING, as you so wrongly presume.
What perishes is the resurrected mortal body that will be utterly destroyed in the LOF. Duh.
FreeGrace2 said:
Again, your opinion isn't required to understand the Bible. God's punishment is clearly ETERNAL, not "quick" as you opine.
I've quoted verses that are so clear they don't need explanation, yet they just go over your head.
And from all the verses, considered, that refers only to their body. We know that their punishment is "everlasting", which means it will be something they EXPERIENCE forever.
So, show me any verse that speaks of the soul and spirit being "utterly destroyed". I know you don't. You are just presuming.
Why don't you grasp that this would mean NO punishment either?
To be punished, you have to "be there", or exist. That's one of your major hang-ups that keeps you from truth.
Again, your opinion isn't required to understand the Bible. God's punishment is clearly ETERNAL, not "quick" as you opine.
I've quoted verses that are so clear they don't need explanation, yet they just go over your head.
And from all the verses, considered, that refers only to their body. We know that their punishment is "everlasting", which means it will be something they EXPERIENCE forever.
So, show me any verse that speaks of the soul and spirit being "utterly destroyed". I know you don't. You are just presuming.
Why don't you grasp that this would mean NO punishment either?
To be punished, you have to "be there", or exist. That's one of your major hang-ups that keeps you from truth.
FreeGrace2 said:
All bodies of unbelievers WILL BE "utterly destroyed".
No mention of souls ceasing to exist.
Are you denying that the physical bodies of unbelievers will be resurrected? That would be IN SPITE of Acts 24:15 and John 5:28,29 and Dan 12:2. So go ahead and reject the truth. I won't stand close.
You are flagrantly mixing concepts that are NOT THE SAME, no matter how many times you repeat your false ideas.
To be able to and doing so are NOT the same.
God is omnipotent, so of course He is able. But the punishment of unbelievers is "eternal" or "everlasting". You just can't get around that, so you make up a bunch of stuff, in your vain attempt to defend your claims.
All bodies of unbelievers WILL BE "utterly destroyed".
No mention of souls ceasing to exist.
Are you denying that the physical bodies of unbelievers will be resurrected? That would be IN SPITE of Acts 24:15 and John 5:28,29 and Dan 12:2. So go ahead and reject the truth. I won't stand close.
You are flagrantly mixing concepts that are NOT THE SAME, no matter how many times you repeat your false ideas.
To be able to and doing so are NOT the same.
God is omnipotent, so of course He is able. But the punishment of unbelievers is "eternal" or "everlasting". You just can't get around that, so you make up a bunch of stuff, in your vain attempt to defend your claims.