And the SMOKE of their torment...No eternal damnation for anyone, except the Devil
- Thread starter kleronomos
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Ezek 18:1-4
The word of the LORD came to me: “What do you mean by repeating this proverb concerning the land of Israel, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge’? As I live, declares the Lord GOD, this proverb shall no more be used by you in Israel. Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: the soul who sins shall die.
http://www.freebiblecommentary.org/old_testament_studies/VOL13BOT/VOL13BOT_18.html
"The soul who sins will die" The emphasis is on individual covenant responsibility (cf. Ezek. 14:20; Deut. 24:17). Remember it is not "either/or," but "both/and" between individual responsibility and corporate responsibility. This same tension can be seen between original sin and volitional sin (cf. Gen. 2:17; Rom. 6:23). This truth is also seen in Deut. 24:16.
What does "die" (BDB 559, KB 562) mean here? It must be more than physical death! It is the opposite of true "life" (cf. Ezek. 18:9). There is "life" (BDB 310, KB 309) beyond this reality. This "life" is characterized by the presence and character of God.
One wonders how the Qal ACTIVE PARTICIPLE "sins," should be understood. Does it imply that a one-time sin brings death or is that already a reality in the Fall (cf. Genesis 3)? How would one relate this statement to 1 John 3:6,9 (PRESENT ACTIVE INDICATIVE)? Are we speaking of sin that characterizes the life or acts of sin? I would assume, because of the idolatrous actions of Ezek. 18:7 and the covenant partners' violations of Ezek. 18:8, that we are speaking of a life characterized by covenant rebellion (cf. Ezek. 18:9).
The Bible mentions three kinds of death or possibly progressive stages of death. The first is Genesis 3. Adam and Eve ate of the forbidden fruit, but they were still alive physically. The "death" referred to was relational (i.e., God to human, human to human, and human to self), as well as contextual (i.e., the planet, the ethos was altered).
The second aspect of death is personal, physical death (cf. Genesis 5). Spiritual death (cf. Eph. 2:1) resulted in the physical cessation of life.
The third aspect (or progress) is ultimate, everlasting death (cf. Rev. 2:11; 20:6,14), which involves
New International Version
For everyone belongs to me, the parent as well as the child—both alike belong to me. The one who sins is the one who will die.
New Living Translation
For all people are mine to judge—both parents and children alike. And this is my rule: The person who sins is the one who will die.
Christian Standard Bible
Look, every life belongs to me. The life of the father is like the life of the son—both belong to me. The person who sins is the one who will die.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
Look, every life belongs to Me. The life of the father is like the life of the son—both belong to Me. The person who sins is the one who will die.”
Contemporary English Version
The lives of all people belong to me--parents as well as children. However, only those who sin will be put to death.
Good News Translation
The life of every person belongs to me, the life of the parent as well as that of the child. The person who sins is the one who will die.
International Standard Version
Look! Every living soul belongs to me—the father's as well as the son's. So pay attention! The person who keeps on sinning is going to die."
International Standard Version
Look! Every living soul belongs to me—the father's as well as the son's. So pay attention! The person who keeps on sinning is going to die."
New American Bible
For all life is mine: the life of the parent is like the life of the child, both are mine. Only the one who sins shall die!
NET Bible
Indeed! All lives are mine--the life of the father as well as the life of the son is mine. The one who sins will die.
New Revised Standard Version
Know that all lives are mine; the life of the parent as well as the life of the child is mine: it is only the person who sins that shall die.
Yes, the rest of the translations on biblehub.com use the word "soul". But these translations all SHOW that the text is speaking about capital punishment, NOT about being thrown into the LOF.
So Ezek 18:4 does not support the annihilationist claim of immaterial souls ceasing to exist.
The word of the LORD came to me: “What do you mean by repeating this proverb concerning the land of Israel, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge’? As I live, declares the Lord GOD, this proverb shall no more be used by you in Israel. Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: the soul who sins shall die.
http://www.freebiblecommentary.org/old_testament_studies/VOL13BOT/VOL13BOT_18.html
"The soul who sins will die" The emphasis is on individual covenant responsibility (cf. Ezek. 14:20; Deut. 24:17). Remember it is not "either/or," but "both/and" between individual responsibility and corporate responsibility. This same tension can be seen between original sin and volitional sin (cf. Gen. 2:17; Rom. 6:23). This truth is also seen in Deut. 24:16.
What does "die" (BDB 559, KB 562) mean here? It must be more than physical death! It is the opposite of true "life" (cf. Ezek. 18:9). There is "life" (BDB 310, KB 309) beyond this reality. This "life" is characterized by the presence and character of God.
One wonders how the Qal ACTIVE PARTICIPLE "sins," should be understood. Does it imply that a one-time sin brings death or is that already a reality in the Fall (cf. Genesis 3)? How would one relate this statement to 1 John 3:6,9 (PRESENT ACTIVE INDICATIVE)? Are we speaking of sin that characterizes the life or acts of sin? I would assume, because of the idolatrous actions of Ezek. 18:7 and the covenant partners' violations of Ezek. 18:8, that we are speaking of a life characterized by covenant rebellion (cf. Ezek. 18:9).
The Bible mentions three kinds of death or possibly progressive stages of death. The first is Genesis 3. Adam and Eve ate of the forbidden fruit, but they were still alive physically. The "death" referred to was relational (i.e., God to human, human to human, and human to self), as well as contextual (i.e., the planet, the ethos was altered).
The second aspect of death is personal, physical death (cf. Genesis 5). Spiritual death (cf. Eph. 2:1) resulted in the physical cessation of life.
The third aspect (or progress) is ultimate, everlasting death (cf. Rev. 2:11; 20:6,14), which involves
- a permanent separation from fellowship with God
- a permanent isolation from God's purpose for creation (i.e., loss of heaven)
- a permanent fellowship of punishment with evil persons and rebellious angels
New International Version
For everyone belongs to me, the parent as well as the child—both alike belong to me. The one who sins is the one who will die.
New Living Translation
For all people are mine to judge—both parents and children alike. And this is my rule: The person who sins is the one who will die.
Christian Standard Bible
Look, every life belongs to me. The life of the father is like the life of the son—both belong to me. The person who sins is the one who will die.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
Look, every life belongs to Me. The life of the father is like the life of the son—both belong to Me. The person who sins is the one who will die.”
Contemporary English Version
The lives of all people belong to me--parents as well as children. However, only those who sin will be put to death.
Good News Translation
The life of every person belongs to me, the life of the parent as well as that of the child. The person who sins is the one who will die.
International Standard Version
Look! Every living soul belongs to me—the father's as well as the son's. So pay attention! The person who keeps on sinning is going to die."
International Standard Version
Look! Every living soul belongs to me—the father's as well as the son's. So pay attention! The person who keeps on sinning is going to die."
New American Bible
For all life is mine: the life of the parent is like the life of the child, both are mine. Only the one who sins shall die!
NET Bible
Indeed! All lives are mine--the life of the father as well as the life of the son is mine. The one who sins will die.
New Revised Standard Version
Know that all lives are mine; the life of the parent as well as the life of the child is mine: it is only the person who sins that shall die.
Yes, the rest of the translations on biblehub.com use the word "soul". But these translations all SHOW that the text is speaking about capital punishment, NOT about being thrown into the LOF.
So Ezek 18:4 does not support the annihilationist claim of immaterial souls ceasing to exist.
Death is given as the wages of sin from the beginning to the end of the Bible.
Somehow in the minds of some, if you believe that, it equates to "not believing what the Bible says."
God alone is immortal, yet many will claim the soul of man is inherently immortal.
Meanwhile, the lie at the heart of the fall of man and corruption of all creation is widely repeated.
Those who repeat it also often say other things which directly contradict Scripture.
Such as: death is nothing to fear; death is not punishment; death is what the unbeliever wants.
Somehow in the minds of some, if you believe that, it equates to "not believing what the Bible says."
God alone is immortal, yet many will claim the soul of man is inherently immortal.
Meanwhile, the lie at the heart of the fall of man and corruption of all creation is widely repeated.
Those who repeat it also often say other things which directly contradict Scripture.
Such as: death is nothing to fear; death is not punishment; death is what the unbeliever wants.
Doesn't change the meaning of Ezek 18:1-4, which is about captital punishment. The "the soul that sins shall die" is NOT about a soul ceasing to exist, but execution for breaking God's laws.
Everyone seems to say that when another poster disagrees with their understanding.
Where does the Bible say clearly that the immaterial soul isn't immortal, or that it can cease to exist?
We all know that. Doesn't prove that souls will cease to exist.
I would agree with the first 3 when applied to believers, but NEVER to unbelievers, and strongly disagree with the 4th. Most unbelievers simply avoid/ignore the concept of death.
In fact, unbelievers generally fear death because it is the unknown for them. They don't want to be held accountable for their actions.
Where annihilationists fail in their logic, is to think that souls that cease to exist are being "punished", when the very definition of punishment is about experiencing unpleasant treatment based on one's actions.
Unbelievers would love nothing more than knowing they will not exist.
But we all know better. Jesus gave us an account of the afterlife of a believer and an unbeliever. Lazarus was being comforted and the rich man was in torment. And yet, neither one had a physical body, with which to be comforted or tormented. Go figure.
So the comfort and torment was to their souls; the heart of the person, their consciousness, their conscience, their emotions, feelings, etc.
You better believe (not a command) souls can suffer. And Dan 12:2 says they will eternally.
Right. I just think people sometimes can’t separate their religion, traditions, denominational teachings from what the Bible actually says. Most people believe the things they do because they genuinely believe they’re right. So when they read the Bible they view it through lens under the assumption they are correct and that the Bible will validate what they believe.
If they find the Bible doesn’t provide the support they require, we see things like this thread for example: people fiddling with definitions, redefining what words mean, or turning things into figurative language.
It absolutely requires humility to conform to the a Bible rather than making the Bible conform to oneself. This is a common illness in religion.
If they find the Bible doesn’t provide the support they require, we see things like this thread for example: people fiddling with definitions, redefining what words mean, or turning things into figurative language.
It absolutely requires humility to conform to the a Bible rather than making the Bible conform to oneself. This is a common illness in religion.
You seem really just full of yourself. My views are fully supported by the Bible.
You are trying to make the Bible conform to your maudlin sentiments. You admit you think it cruel that God wouild punish anyone for eternity, yet that is exactly what the Bible says.
So you have gone about trying to twist what the Bible says to FIT YOUR OWN ideas and likes.
You are trying to make the Bible conform to your maudlin sentiments. You admit you think it cruel that God wouild punish anyone for eternity, yet that is exactly what the Bible says.
So you have gone about trying to twist what the Bible says to FIT YOUR OWN ideas and likes.
look this is a classic example of the way you talk. I didn’t even say what you just said I said, but that didn’t stop you from creating a narrative and then assigning to me. That’s called a straw man argument.
if you can’t even be trusted to represent my words correctly then why should anyone expect that you can be trusted with representing what the Bible says?
if you can’t even be trusted to represent my words correctly then why should anyone expect that you can be trusted with representing what the Bible says?
I think you are exaggerating on this point. Hardly anyone would say "death is NOTHING to fear".
It's not that people aren't afraid of dying but they know they have mortal bodies. If death is defined as
becoming nonexistent, it isn't the WORST fear for mankind. It CAN be considered a relief. You say that
contradicts scripture. I disagree.
Rev 9
3 And out of the smoke locusts came down on the earth and were given power like that of scorpions of the earth. 4 They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads. 5 They were not allowed to kill them but only to torture them for five months. And the agony they suffered was like that of the sting of a scorpion when it strikes. 6 During those days people will seek death but will not find it; they will long to die, but death will elude them.
Job 3
20 Why is light given to one burdened with grief,
and life to those whose existence is bitter,
21 who wait for death, but it does not come,
and search for it more than for hidden treasure,
22 who are filled with much joy
and are glad when they reach the grave?
Job 7
13 When I think my bed will comfort me
and my couch will ease my complaint,
14 even then you frighten me with dreams
and terrify me with visions,
15 so that I prefer strangling and death,
rather than this body of mine.
16 I despise my life; I would not live for ever.
Let me alone; my days have no meaning.
