And the SMOKE of their torment...No eternal damnation for anyone, except the Devil

[Jackson123]

You just don't understand, or want to, what "eternal punishment" means. Punishment would CEASE if the soul ceased to exist.

Why you don't grasp that is strange.

Yep, make it easy to me as sinner, to make myself happy so I make my own verse

 

[FreeGrace2]

Yep, make it easy to me as sinner, to make myself happy so I make my own verse

My bad. I apologize. My comment was for Rm. You've got it exactly right about what "eternal punishment" obviously means. He doesn't.

 

[Mem]

I’m trying to be persuaded by your theological arguments but how can eternal punishment not be eternal punishment?

If I may. In the sense that, if I'm convicted with absolutely no avenue of recourse (that Christ otherwise is), the judgment stands forever, and the judgment, in this case punishment rendered by the judgment, is death. i.e., no longer any possibility of resurrection to life ever again.

 

[Runningman]

FreeGrace2 said:
No it doesn't. The text is very clear about Dan 12:2. It speaks of the 2 resurrecrtions, one for the saved and one for the unsaved. Any other understanding is ridiculous.

The unsaved will EXPERIENCE shame and contempt ETERNALLY. That isn't difficult to understand. You have no excuse.

btw, give me the actual verses in Isa 66 that you think define Dan 12:2.

Oh, really?


Let's see what you have.


lol. Nothing related to Dan 12:2, as I SAID. v.22 speaks of the NH & NE, which begins in Rev 21. However, v.22 and 23 speaks of FUTURE things, what is to come.

And...wait for it...ALL unbelievers will be DISPATCHED to the LOF at the end of Rev 20, so, I SAY AGAIN, Isa 66 doesn't apply or involve unbelievers in any way. They will NOT be anywhere near the NE. It's all about glorified believers, living on the NE with Jesus on the Throne and God with them. In fact, v.24 is simply the statement that glorified believers will look back on the unbelievers who are "more or less tolerating" the LOF.

It is just amazing that you seem totally unable to understand the clarity of Dan 12:2. The words CLEARLY separate the saved from the unsaved.

Here is a color coded quote, to help you see the reality of the verse:

Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

Blue words state that ALL humans will be resurrected. See also John 5:28,29 and Acts 24:15.

Green words refer to all the saved. They will (their bodies will) be given immortality, or everlasting life.

Red words refer to ALL the unsaved. They will experience an everlasting shame and contempt.


Dan 12:2 clearly says the unbelievers will be resurrected to an EVERLASTING contempt. And since "shame" is included, it is obvious that the contempt is one of self contempt for their BAD decisions in life. Ignoring God, rejecting the gospel, etc.


Really?? "to see IF IF IF"? Don't you know that God is omniscient and already knows from before the foundation of the earth who will believe and receive eternal life and who won't?? Sheesh.


Yep. So what is the point of the judgment according to the "books of works"? To determine the level of "tolerability" in the LOF.


Where do you get the idea that anyone on the NE will see the LOF??


It just seems you can't resist your LYING. I've explained this enough that you have NO EXCUSE for your LIES. So stop it.

Death IS death, so stop your LYING about what I believe. But "death" refers to the body, which you seem incapable of understanding.

The LOF is called the second death at least twice in Revelation. That refers ONLY to the resurrected physical body. Your lack of discernment notwithstanding.


So you can't discern the truth from Dan 12:2 and Matt 25:46.

Shame, contempt (self) and punishment are all EXPERIENCED. For that to occur, the soul MUST exist.


The dead are no longer on earth and "know not anything" on earth". Duh.


Read Rev 6:9. They surely DO know a lot of things. And Read Luke 16 and what the rich man said to Abraham about his brothers.

Your views are so far off track of what the Bible clearly shows.


You have no excuse. Being ABLE TO and actually doing it are not the SAME THING, as you so wrongly presume.


What perishes is the resurrected mortal body that will be utterly destroyed in the LOF. Duh.

Nothing in your flurry of replies makes sense or is sound. I don’t see the need to continue addressing them. Fact is you are blinded by your own personal religion. Many people spend their entire life stuck in that. Do make every effort to wrestle yourself out of it. You heard it here first.

Please continue believing falsehoods if you wish. If you won’t hear the Bible on this matter then there’s nothing else I can offer you.

 

[Snacks]

If I may. In the sense that, if I'm convicted with absolutely no avenue of recourse (that Christ otherwise is), the judgment stands forever, and the judgment, in this case punishment rendered by the judgment, is death. i.e., no longer any possibility of resurrection to life ever again.

I appreciate you sharing 😊
When you say death do you mean no consciousness as in ceasing to exist in any manner?

 

[Runningman]

I’m trying to be persuaded by your theological arguments but how can eternal punishment not be eternal punishment?

The way I see it is there are a couple dozen or so verses that just say the fate of the unsaved is that they perish, put to death, or destroyed. I don’t make the assumption that the human soul is immortal unless God allows it. I also interpret death to just mean death.

I think of it this way, if any part of a person lives forever in hell then they have eternal life. I firmly believe only the saved can have eternal life. I believe the “eternal punishment” is final death with no possibility of resurrection.

Also, I see the Bible just doesn’t really make sense if eternal life is literally eternal life, but death isn’t literally death.

One verse that’s very plain is James 4:12

James 4:12
There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you—who are you to judge your neighbor?

Being saved or being destroyed are the only options.

 

[Mem]

I appreciate you sharing 😊
When you say death do you mean no consciousness as in ceasing to exist in any manner?

Body, first death, and both body (resurrected to render judgment) and soul (exacting punishment to match the judgment), second death, yes.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Snacks said:
I’m trying to be persuaded by your theological arguments but how can eternal punishment not be eternal punishment?

If I may. In the sense that, if I'm convicted with absolutely no avenue of recourse (that Christ otherwise is), the judgment stands forever, and the judgment, in this case punishment rendered by the judgment, is death. i.e., no longer any possibility of resurrection to life ever again.

This doesn't address the CORE issue on this thread.

Do you believe that the souls of unbelievers will cease to exist?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Nothing in your flurry of replies makes sense or is sound.

Yes, all of my replies are sound and biblical, but I do understand why they don't make sense to you. You aren't able to grasp any of the key verses.

I don’t see the need to continue addressing them. Fact is you are blinded by your own personal religion.

To be crystal clear here, Christianity is NOT a religion. It is DISTINCT from EVERY religion. Do you have any idea why?

My views are guided only by the Bible. I've proven what I believe from the Bible. You just don't like what the Bible actually says, so you have taken it upon yourself to twist certain verses around to make it palatable to YOU.

You've several times indicated how much you are offended by God's punishment being an ongoing punishment that is consciously experienced, in spite of the verses.

Please continue believing falsehoods if you wish. If you won’t hear the Bible on this matter then there’s nothing else I can offer you.

No, I have rejected your falsehoods. You only fantasize that you've proven your case. But you aren't even close.

 

[FreeGrace2]

James 4:12
There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you—who are you to judge your neighbor?

Being saved or being destroyed are the only options.

What are believers being saved from? Bodily destruction in the LOF. Or missing hell, as some might put it.

How are unbelievers being destroyed? Their resurrected bodies DIE AGAIN. Hint: "second death".

Not really that difficult to understand and BELIEVE.

 

[Mem]

Snacks said:
I’m trying to be persuaded by your theological arguments but how can eternal punishment not be eternal punishment?

This doesn't address the CORE issue on this thread.

Do you believe that the souls of unbelievers will cease to exist?

I believe that, because scripture directs us to fear Him that can destroy both body and soul, that threat is entirely possible and in fact an immediate threat of the danger of it.
And absolutely nowhere does scripture indicate that it is, not even remotely, impossible, however much anyone might insist it must be.

 

[Magenta]

The way I see it is there are a couple dozen or so verses that just say the fate of the unsaved is that they perish, put to death, or destroyed. I don’t make the assumption that the human soul is immortal unless God allows it. I also interpret death to just mean death.

I think of it this way, if any part of a person lives forever in hell then they have eternal life. I firmly believe only the saved can have eternal life. I believe the “eternal punishment” is final death with no possibility of resurrection.

Also, I see the Bible just doesn’t really make sense if eternal life is literally eternal life, but death isn’t literally death.

One verse that’s very plain is James 4:12

James 4:12
There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you—who are you to judge your neighbor?

Being saved or being destroyed are the only options.

Our God is a Consuming Fire

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

If I may. In the sense that, if I'm convicted with absolutely no avenue of recourse (that Christ otherwise is), the judgment stands forever, and the judgment, in this case punishment rendered by the judgment, is death. i.e., no longer any possibility of resurrection to life ever again.

If they have lost all perception, how would they know there was no possiblity of resurrection and why would they care?

 

[Magenta]

I believe that, because scripture directs us to fear Him that can destroy both body and soul, that threat is entirely possible and in fact an immediate threat of the danger of it.
And absolutely nowhere does scripture indicate that it is, not even remotely, impossible, however much anyone might insist it must be.

In fact, this fear of God that only God can instill -being that He alone holds the keys to life and death-
is itself the very fear that is a prerequisite for wisdom, knowledge, and understanding of God.

All life is within Him, and everything was made by and for Him.

Revelation 1:18

 

[Snacks]

The way I see it is there are a couple dozen or so verses that just say the fate of the unsaved is that they perish, put to death, or destroyed. I don’t make the assumption that the human soul is immortal unless God allows it. I also interpret death to just mean death.

I think of it this way, if any part of a person lives forever in hell then they have eternal life. I firmly believe only the saved can have eternal life. I believe the “eternal punishment” is final death with no possibility of resurrection.

Also, I see the Bible just doesn’t really make sense if eternal life is literally eternal life, but death isn’t literally death.

One verse that’s very plain is James 4:12

James 4:12
There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you—who are you to judge your neighbor?

Being saved or being destroyed are the only options.

Thanks for sharing, Runner. 😎

 

[Snacks]

Body, first death, and both body (resurrected to render judgment) and soul (exacting punishment to match the judgment), second death, yes.

Thanks, Mem. 😎

 

[Snacks]

What are believers being saved from? Bodily destruction in the LOF. Or missing hell, as some might put it.

Profound question!

 

[Magenta]

Profound question!

The wrath of God is spoken of extensively in Scripture. Here is one example:

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life. Whoever rejects the Son
will not see life. Instead, the wrath of God remains on him. John 3:36

 

[FreeGrace2]

I believe that, because scripture directs us to fear Him that can destroy both body and soul, that threat is entirely possible and in fact an immediate threat of the danger of it.
And absolutely nowhere does scripture indicate that it is, not even remotely, impossible, however much anyone might insist it must be.

I think it is a presumption that just because God is able (omnipotence) to cause a soul to cease to exist that He will.

in fact, the Bible never makes crystal clear that BOTH body and soul of the unbeliever will cease to exist.

And the Bible makes clear that unbelievers will experience punishment eternally. That proves that the soul WILL continue to exist for that reason. Yes, the resurrected mortal body WILL die AGAIN when cast into the LOF.

Dan 12:2 clearly shows the difference between the saved and unsaved: the saved will live with God forever (they have eternal life), while the unsaved will experience shame and contempt eternally. Again, that requires being conscious to have shame and contempt.

But, each to his/her own. Each person is responsible for their own study and belief in what God's Word says. There will be a lot of believers who will realize just how far from the Bible they were taught or studied on their own.

The good news is that those who have trusted solely in the work and Person of Jesus Christ will have eternal life with God forever. And we'll know the ultimate fate of unbelievers.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The wrath of God is spoken of extensively in Scripture. Here is one example:

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life. Whoever rejects the Son
will not see life. Instead, the wrath of God remains on him. John 3:36

Wow! Thanks for sharing John 3:36. That verse says that God's wrath "remains on" the unbeliever. If unbelievers are going to cease to exist, how can God's wrath remain on them?